Author Topic: There is But ONE Church of the Faithful (Read 1153 times)

Gregory I · « **on:** September 19, 2011, 07:33:56 PM »

I think that in these times of confusion, it is important to realize that htere is but ONE Catholic Church:

I have SEEN Catholics at a Motu Mass offered by a Valid (older) priest. There was the Catholic Church.

I have SEEN Catholics at a SSPX Chapel hear the mass. There was the Catholic Church.

I have SEEN Catholics at a sede chapel Hear the Mass of Pius X Offered. There was the Catholic Church.

I believe that all Traditonal catholics, who intend to be united to the Catholic Church and her legitimate and valid priests and Bishops ARE the Catholic Church. We have simply moved from a territorial Jurisdiction into a personal ordinariate of sorts.

HERE IS MY REASON FOR THINKING SO:

St Hypathius, a Bithynian monk of the fifth century, insisted on suppressing the name of Nestorius, the patriarch of Constantinople, from the sacred diptychs from the moment when Nestorius began to preach his heresy, which denied the unity of person in Our Lord. Hypathius's ordinary, the bishop Eulalius (who was a suffragan of Nestorius), refused Nestorius's heresy, but rebuked the monk for having withdrawn from communion with their patriarch before he had been condemned by a council. Hypathius replied: "I cannot insert his name in the Canon of the Mass, because a heresiarch is not worthy of the title of pastor in the Church; do what you like with me; I am ready to suffer all, and nothing will induce me to change my behaviour." (Petits Bollandistes, 17th June)

St Hypathius's judgment relative to Eulalius seems to be confirmed not only by the approval of the hagiographers, but also by the decree of Pope St Celestine deciding that all of Nestorius's acts were to be considered null from the moment when he began to preach heresy..." for he who had abandoned the Faith by such preaching can neither deprive nor depose anyone." (St Robert Bellarmin: De Romano Pontifice, Cap. XXX) The excesses of one school of traditional Catholics call for a reminder, however, that St Hypathius withdrew from communion only with Nestorius, not with Eulalius also!

It has occurred several times that a saint has suspected a reigning pope of heresy, even to the extent of threatening to withdraw from obedience to him if the pope failed to manifest his orthodoxy by withdrawing the grounds for suspicion. St Bruno, St Hugh of Grenoble and St Godfrey of Amiens all took this attitude towards Pope Pascal II. Moreover, though St Yvo of Chartres disagreed with his three fellow-saints, the disagreement did not concern the principle of how to react if "the person placed in the chair of Peter...should manifestly depart from the truth of the Gospel" (Patrologia Latina, tom. 162, col. 240), but only the practical question of whether this had in fact happened in Pascal's case.

None of these true Catholics questioned EACH OTHER, but Only the correct way in which to handle heresy.

Stephen Francis · « **Reply #1 on:** September 28, 2011, 05:43:46 PM »

The "Motu" Mess is NOT a traditional Catholic Mass. It is a mish-mash of changed words, changed rubrics and some vestiges of the traditional Mass of the ages.

If there was a valid traditional priest offering that Motu mess, he was gravely ignorant and/or misinformed. A validly baptized, traditional Catholic who holds to the Roman Catholic faith whole and entire has no business attending such a 'service'.

St. John Vianney, patron of priests, pray for us and for faithful traditional vocations to increase.

St. Anthony, hammer of heretics, terror of Hell, pray for us.

Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.

Gregory I · « **Reply #2 on:** September 28, 2011, 06:07:00 PM »

I simply mean that those who attend in ignorance with the intention of being united to the traditional faith and Rome, cannot be considered a anything other than Catholic.

Charles · « **Reply #3 on:** September 28, 2011, 08:00:37 PM »

Imagine if all trads were truly united. Surely we have more in common than differences.

Stephen Francis · « **Reply #4 on:** September 28, 2011, 09:40:58 PM »

@Gregory I:

With all due respect, my brother, the biggest problem is that there was supposedly a validly-ordained traditional Catholic priest offering the 'Motu' service. Again, unless the priest was somehow brainwashed, he HAD to know that what he was doing was offering a 'service' the very existence of which is in contradiction to Quo Primum.

There is NO excuse for ignorance on the part of the laity, either. Honestly, how is it that things could change RIGHT UNDER SOMEONE'S NOSE while they remain unaffected?

Every once in a while, both in the posts on this board and in posts elsewhere, I read comments from people who are decrying the lack of sanctity in the lives of those who call themselves Catholic.

THERE'S NO MYSTERY HERE, FRIENDS! There's no new legion of saints coming out of the Church these days, and I DON'T just mean because the Modernists have built their Potemkin Village facade of a 'church' in full view of the world. No, I mean in the TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLIC FAITH!

Why, you are asking, am I saying this? Let me give you an example from my life in the 'secular world':

I am a musician. I play, among other things, the harmonica. I used to play in bands that specialized in what is known as 'urban blues' music, or 'Chicago-style blues' as it is also known. One of the distinct features of this style of music is the amplified harmonica, in short, a harmonica played through a sound system or amplifier of some sort, generally through some sort of microphone.

I have played harmonica for well over 20 years now, and I have never had customized harmonicas built, I have never had specialized amplifiers made, I have never gone and studied with this or that prominent musician. I have just learned what to play, and I have played it.

I have gone to 'jam sessions' where all the harmonica players basically stand around and talk all day long about how their instruments are made, how they do this or that technique... and then their actual playing is generic, lifeless and, frankly, boring as all get out.

My point is that while the 'RadTrads' or whatever are getting into verbal fights with heretical supporters of apostate bishops, etc, they are often missing the bigger point. Please read the following carefully, prayerfully and with the knowledge that I love you all in Christ Jesus:

IF YOU LIVE ANYWHERE NEAR A TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC CHAPEL, CHURCH OR EVEN JUST A PRIEST, YOU ARE RICHER BY FAR IN THINGS SPIRITUAL THAN MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YOUR FAMILY IN CHRIST, WHO ARE STARVING SPIRITUALLY BECAUSE THEY LACK THE MEANS TO RECEIVE THE VALID SACRAMENTS.

GOD KNOWS THAT THEY LACK SUCH THINGS, AND GOD IN HIS MERCY PROVIDES FOR THEIR SANCTITY, GIVEN, OF COURSE, THAT EACH ONE PERSEVERES IN PRAYER AND AVOIDS NEAR OCCASIONS OF SIN.

PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT ALLOW YOUR ZEAL FOR WHAT IS RIGHT TO BECOME A STRICTLY ACADEMIC ENDEAVOR. IMAGINE IF OUR LORD JESUS SPENT HIS TIME BETWEEN PREACHING AND THEN HIDING AWAY SOMEWHERE TO STUDY. INSTEAD, OUR BLESSED LORD WENT AND CONFIRMED AND ESTABLISHED PEOPLE IN THEIR FAITH, AND HE WORE HIMSELF OUT EVERY DAY BRINGING THE REALITY OF GOD'S KINGDOM TO PEOPLE IN DARKNESS.

AS YOU PRAY FOR STRENGTH TO PERSEVERE AGAINST THOSE WHO PROMOTE HERESIES GREAT AND SMALL, PLEASE ALSO CONTINUALLY PRAY THAT YOUR OWN PERSONAL SANCTITY WILL GROW. PRAY ALSO FOR ME; MY ZEAL FOR THE TRUTH OF CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH ARE DRIVING ME TO FACE SEVERE CHALLENGES TO MY PHYSICAL, FINANCIAL AND FAMILIAL WELL-BEING AND STABILITY, BUT I MUST PRESS ON.

BROTHERS AND SISTERS, PLEASE SEEK JESUS AND HIS MANIFOLD GRACES. PETITION YOUR FAMILY IN HEAVEN, THE SAINTS OF GOD, FOR THEIR PRAYERS. GROW IN GRACE, NOT JUST IN KNOWLEDGE, AND KNOW THAT ONLY THOSE WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND HOLD THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST WILL BE CROWNED ONE DAY. KNOWING THE COMMANDS OF JESUS AND OF HIS APOSTLES IS ONE THING, BUT IT'S NEVER ENOUGH. DESIRING TO BE A SO-CALLED 'CHRISTIAN' IS ONE THING, BUT ALONE IS NEVER ENOUGH, BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE HERESY BREEDS.

WE MUST, WE MUST, WE MUST POSSESS BOTH SPIRIT AND TRUTH, AS OUR BLESSED LORD SPECIFICALLY SAID.

Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.

Gregory I · « **Reply #5 on:** September 28, 2011, 11:20:21 PM »

Quote from: Stephen Francis

@Gregory I:

With all due respect, my brother, the biggest problem is that there was supposedly a validly-ordained traditional Catholic priest offering the 'Motu' service. Again, unless the priest was somehow brainwashed, he HAD to know that what he was doing was offering a 'service' the very existence of which is in contradiction to Quo Primum.

There is NO excuse for ignorance on the part of the laity, either. Honestly, how is it that things could change RIGHT UNDER SOMEONE'S NOSE while they remain unaffected?

Every once in a while, both in the posts on this board and in posts elsewhere, I read comments from people who are decrying the lack of sanctity in the lives of those who call themselves Catholic.

THERE'S NO MYSTERY HERE, FRIENDS! There's no new legion of saints coming out of the Church these days, and I DON'T just mean because the Modernists have built their Potemkin Village facade of a 'church' in full view of the world. No, I mean in the TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLIC FAITH!

Why, you are asking, am I saying this? Let me give you an example from my life in the 'secular world':

I am a musician. I play, among other things, the harmonica. I used to play in bands that specialized in what is known as 'urban blues' music, or 'Chicago-style blues' as it is also known. One of the distinct features of this style of music is the amplified harmonica, in short, a harmonica played through a sound system or amplifier of some sort, generally through some sort of microphone.

I have played harmonica for well over 20 years now, and I have never had customized harmonicas built, I have never had specialized amplifiers made, I have never gone and studied with this or that prominent musician. I have just learned what to play, and I have played it.

I have gone to 'jam sessions' where all the harmonica players basically stand around and talk all day long about how their instruments are made, how they do this or that technique... and then their actual playing is generic, lifeless and, frankly, boring as all get out.

My point is that while the 'RadTrads' or whatever are getting into verbal fights with heretical supporters of apostate bishops, etc, they are often missing the bigger point. Please read the following carefully, prayerfully and with the knowledge that I love you all in Christ Jesus:

IF YOU LIVE ANYWHERE NEAR A TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC CHAPEL, CHURCH OR EVEN JUST A PRIEST, YOU ARE RICHER BY FAR IN THINGS SPIRITUAL THAN MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YOUR FAMILY IN CHRIST, WHO ARE STARVING SPIRITUALLY BECAUSE THEY LACK THE MEANS TO RECEIVE THE VALID SACRAMENTS.

GOD KNOWS THAT THEY LACK SUCH THINGS, AND GOD IN HIS MERCY PROVIDES FOR THEIR SANCTITY, GIVEN, OF COURSE, THAT EACH ONE PERSEVERES IN PRAYER AND AVOIDS NEAR OCCASIONS OF SIN.

PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT ALLOW YOUR ZEAL FOR WHAT IS RIGHT TO BECOME A STRICTLY ACADEMIC ENDEAVOR. IMAGINE IF OUR LORD JESUS SPENT HIS TIME BETWEEN PREACHING AND THEN HIDING AWAY SOMEWHERE TO STUDY. INSTEAD, OUR BLESSED LORD WENT AND CONFIRMED AND ESTABLISHED PEOPLE IN THEIR FAITH, AND HE WORE HIMSELF OUT EVERY DAY BRINGING THE REALITY OF GOD'S KINGDOM TO PEOPLE IN DARKNESS.

AS YOU PRAY FOR STRENGTH TO PERSEVERE AGAINST THOSE WHO PROMOTE HERESIES GREAT AND SMALL, PLEASE ALSO CONTINUALLY PRAY THAT YOUR OWN PERSONAL SANCTITY WILL GROW. PRAY ALSO FOR ME; MY ZEAL FOR THE TRUTH OF CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH ARE DRIVING ME TO FACE SEVERE CHALLENGES TO MY PHYSICAL, FINANCIAL AND FAMILIAL WELL-BEING AND STABILITY, BUT I MUST PRESS ON.

BROTHERS AND SISTERS, PLEASE SEEK JESUS AND HIS MANIFOLD GRACES. PETITION YOUR FAMILY IN HEAVEN, THE SAINTS OF GOD, FOR THEIR PRAYERS. GROW IN GRACE, NOT JUST IN KNOWLEDGE, AND KNOW THAT ONLY THOSE WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND HOLD THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST WILL BE CROWNED ONE DAY. KNOWING THE COMMANDS OF JESUS AND OF HIS APOSTLES IS ONE THING, BUT IT'S NEVER ENOUGH. DESIRING TO BE A SO-CALLED 'CHRISTIAN' IS ONE THING, BUT ALONE IS NEVER ENOUGH, BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE HERESY BREEDS.

WE MUST, WE MUST, WE MUST POSSESS BOTH SPIRIT AND TRUTH, AS OUR BLESSED LORD SPECIFICALLY SAID.

Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.

I completely agree. I thought the validly ordaqined priest was a given. I do not mean the NO is conducive to salvation, far from it: But if you look at a group of traditional minded Catholics attending a Latin motu mass, and that is the best they can do because it is all they know, are you going to say that there are no Catholics there?

I myself do NOT advocate going to the Motu mass ( I am trying to phase out of it, but my wife, not being of the same mind, is something I have to take into account. Please pray for THAT situation. She is traditional, but scared of losing friends if we go to the local trad chapel) and I would ONLY attend if I KNEW there was a valid priest there who could confect a valid Eucharist at which I could receive the sacraments.

Other people's sinfulness is not going to hold my spiritual nourishment hostage.

And of course, this is ALL about growing spiritually. That is why I seek to learn and to grow. I am a convert, and i still have the thirst, even though it has been 7 years now. However, Christ cannot be found solely in acedamia, I admit. He is OUT THERE, in the tabernacle...

Stephen Francis · « **Reply #6 on:** September 29, 2011, 09:49:47 AM »

@Gregory I:

I will certainly pray for you and your wife. Please understand, however, that your wife's reluctance to attend a valid traditional Mass is NO excuse for attending a false service.

Again, as I stated before, either the validly-ordained priest offering the Motu hoax is fooled into believing in its validity, or he is being duplicitous and is trying to fool YOU and other traditional Catholics into accepting something bogus instead of the True Mass.

Whichever the true situation is, you MUST NOT continue to attend a false service! It is detrimental to your soul, because it is faulty, but it is also DANGEROUS because you are
expressing, by your mere physical presence, your ACCEPTANCE OF and UNITY WITH, the heretics who promulgated such nonsense as the Motu mess.

Your wife needs to recognize your headship of your household, and you need to gently, prayerfully, gracefully but FIRMLY insist that for the good of your souls, you both attend a valid Mass at a genuinely traditional Church or chapel.

As far as her worry about losing friends is concerned, why not offer to have those friends over for coffee and to have a discussion about the Mass, its history and the validity of the new 'motu' thing? If they refuse, or if they become offended because you have made an important spiritual decision for your family, then they are not acting in good Catholic faith and are not worth associating with.

PLEASE, however, no matter what the cost, GET AWAY from the Motarians and their bogus services. Every step you or your wife take toward their offerings is a step further away from Tradition, and you will be implicitly convincing others by your actions to commit the same error!

BY ALL MEANS, as well, DO NOT COMMUNICATE the 'cookie' at these services! The Motu Mess is NOT A VALID MASS! You know very well what the Mass is; it has been what it is for CENTURIES, not a few decades. It has its roots in Christ's own Words, not in the work of 'liturgical committees'.

I know you would never want to offend Our Lord Who offers Himself to you in the Holy Eucharist. Please, friend, do NOT tread on such dangerous ground as to continue to associate with these people who are perverting the Faith.

You can bank on my prayers for you and your wife.

St. John Vianney, patron of priests, pray for us and for this confused priest who has been led into error.

Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.

Charles · « **Reply #7 on:** September 29, 2011, 10:30:21 AM »

Quote from: Stephen Francis

@Gregory I:

I will certainly pray for you and your wife. Please understand, however, that your wife's reluctance to attend a valid traditional Mass is NO excuse for attending a false service.

Good advice, but didn't you state on a thread over on the Arts forum that you play guitar at NO services ?

Stephen Francis · « **Reply #8 on:** September 29, 2011, 10:39:45 AM »

@Charles:

No, I did not say such things. I said I go to Church buildings and play. I play OUTDOORS. I do not play IN the churches. I would not participate in a N.O. 'service' in any way.

I play for Our Lord and His Mother. I pray that the truth of the Church will be re-established in these places where error has taken hold, and where apostates have pretended to take authority.

I do not play FOR the Bogus Ordo. I play at the churches because they are beautiful, because Our Lord commanded that He be worshiped, and because there is at least a slight chance that I will be able to speak to someone regarding the True Faith.

I play at these churches because there are people there, attending whatever 'service' is going on, but I do not pretend to associate myself spiritually with them.

If there were a traditional chapel or church near me, I would certainly be there instead. The local church near me was founded in 1903, is absolutely gorgeous, still has its High Altar behind the picnic table, and is very dear to me, as it was my faithful Catholic grandparents' home parish. Thankfully my grandfather stopped attending when they went Novus, and my grandmother was too feeble to attend many Novus services. She stopped, too, and was constant in her practice of the Faith for over 90 years.

The only thing that keeps me from visiting that church more often is that it's located on a busy street, and there is no grass or any park-like area near the church where I could sit and play. It's all concrete.

Anyway, rest assured, friends, that no matter what confusion may have arisen from any other posts in the 'Artists' thread, I do not and will not support the Bogus Ordo. Period.

Charles · « **Reply #9 on:** September 29, 2011, 12:01:40 PM »

Quote from: Stephen Francis

@Charles:

No, I did not say such things. I said I go to Church buildings and play. I play OUTDOORS. I do not play IN the churches. I would not participate in a N.O. 'service' in any way.

I play for Our Lord and His Mother. I pray that the truth of the Church will be re-established in these places where error has taken hold, and where apostates have pretended to take authority.

I do not play FOR the Bogus Ordo. I play at the churches because they are beautiful, because Our Lord commanded that He be worshiped, and because there is at least a slight chance that I will be able to speak to someone regarding the True Faith.

I play at these churches because there are people there, attending whatever 'service' is going on, but I do not pretend to associate myself spiritually with them.

If there were a traditional chapel or church near me, I would certainly be there instead. The local church near me was founded in 1903, is absolutely gorgeous, still has its High Altar behind the picnic table, and is very dear to me, as it was my faithful Catholic grandparents' home parish. Thankfully my grandfather stopped attending when they went Novus, and my grandmother was too feeble to attend many Novus services. She stopped, too, and was constant in her practice of the Faith for over 90 years.

The only thing that keeps me from visiting that church more often is that it's located on a busy street, and there is no grass or any park-like area near the church where I could sit and play. It's all concrete.

Anyway, rest assured, friends, that no matter what confusion may have arisen from any other posts in the 'Artists' thread, I do not and will not support the Bogus Ordo. Period.

Fair enough. It just wasn't clear what you meant on that thread.

Mea culpa

Gregory I · « **Reply #10 on:** September 29, 2011, 11:32:35 PM »

I agree with you, but suspect you are not married... :rolleyes:

I understand. TOTALLY. I am always telling her and showing her evidence. She is coming around. She is more friendly toward Sede-isms.

What's the saying about catching flies with honey?...

Stephen Francis · « **Reply #11 on:** September 30, 2011, 11:22:28 AM »

Quote from: Gregory I

I agree with you, but suspect you are not married...

11 years now, been together for 17 years.

Quote

I understand. TOTALLY. I am always telling her and showing her evidence. She is coming around. She is more friendly toward Sede-isms. What's the saying about catching flies with honey?...

Telling her and showing her evidence is one thing, but please remember that it's your life of sanctity that is going to 1) lay the groundwork for your authority as a husband, and 2)provide for YOUR soul even if or when she balks at coming along with you.

PRAY, PRAY, PRAY and make sure you're not walking the thin line between adherence to the Faith and blustery insistence.

Also, please remember that while there is some truth to the old adage about 'catching flies', there's also an ORDER in a Christian household which God Almighty established and which the Apostles taught quite plainly.

I know ALL ABOUT keeping peace in the home, and how it's better to sleep on the roof than be in the house with a contentious wife, but that's an Old Testament aphorism and not a binding commandment. The headship of the husband in the home, however, IS a directive from the Church, from Christ Himself; therefore, you're not 'catching flies' as much as you're making sure that your wife's old habits and sentimental feelings aren't leading her into trouble with her soul.

Understand her feelings, cherish her as a gift from God, but also remember that the Scriptures tell us that we can't go reaching into the viper's den, or we'll rue the results. You're just making sure she keeps far away from the danger.

Again, rest assured that I will pray for you.