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Offline stevusmagnus

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« Reply #105 on: April 10, 2011, 02:44:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    So, I can, under certain circuмstances, confess to an Orthodox priest who denies Papal Primacy but not to a SSPX priest who affirms it?


    If you would listen to the NO apologists, yes.

    In reality jurisidiction is supplied to the SSPX priest when there is common error of law or fact.


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #106 on: April 10, 2011, 02:49:07 PM »
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  • http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/supplied_jurisdiction/validity_of_confessions_3.htm##6

    Quote
    7. NEW LEGISLATION CONCERNING THE RECEPTION OF CERTAIN SACRAMENTS FROM NON-CATHOLIC MINISTERS
     
    7.1.  Canons on the New Legislation Concerning the Reception of Certain Sacraments from Non-Catholic Ministers:
     
    #2. Quoties necessitas id postulet aut vera spiritualis utilitas id suadeat, et dummodo periculum vitetur erroris vel indifferentismi, licet christifidelibus quibus physice aut moraliter impossibile sit accedere ad ministrum catholicuм, sacramenta poenitentiae, Eucharistiae et unctionis infirmorum recipere a ministris non catholicis, in quorum Ecclesia valida existunt praedicta sacramenta. (New Code Canon 844)

      Whenever necessity requires or genuine spiritual advantage suggests, and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is lawful for the faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose churches these sacraments are valid. (New Code Canon 844, #2)
     
    7.2. A Little History

    The Second Vatican Council, in its Decree on Ecuмenism, "De Oecuмenismo, Unitatis Redintegratio," 21 November, 1964, presented the guidelines for the so-called ecuмenical movement within the Catholic Church.

    Its immediate practical application was substantiated in the Directory, Ad Totam Ecclesiam, issued by the Secretariat for Christian Unity on 14 May, 1967, signed by Cardinal Bea, President, and Bishop Willebrands, Secretary. In it we find section 2, "Sharing in Liturgical Worship with Other Separated Brethren," with the ancestor of New Code Canon 844.

    "Since the sacraments are both signs of unity and sources of grace, the Church can for adequate reasons allow access to these sacraments to a separated brother. This may be permitted in danger of death or in urgent need (during persecution, in prisons) if the separated brother has no access to a minister of his own communion, and spontaneously asks a Catholic priest for the sacraments so long as he declares a faith in these sacraments in harmony with that of the Church, and is rightly disposed . . . A Catholic in similar circuмstances may not ask for these sacraments except from a minister who has validly received the sacrament of Order."

    There was no surprise when, in 1983, we saw this ecuмenical policy included in the New Code, codifying under specious pretexts the communicatio in sacris which the Church had always abhorred. How far we were already from the sane doctrine of the Old Code!:

    "Haud licitum est fidelibus quovis modo active assistere seu partem habere in sacris acatholicorum." (Canon 1258)

    7.3. Notions

    It is clear: a Catholic may receive from a non-Catholic minister the Sacraments of Penance, Holy Communion and Extreme Unction, under the following conditions:

    There is a NEED, or a TRUE SPIRITUAL ADVANTAGE to be obtained,

    The danger of error and indifferentism is avoided,

    There is a physical or moral impossibility to approach a Catholic minister,

    The Sacraments to receive are valid in the church to which the minister belongs.

    We already studied what Canon Law means by physical or moral impossibility to approach a priest when we considered the exemption from the ordinary canonical form for marriage. This does not present any problem: a persecution, a very long distance, onerous expenses, a scandal to avoid, a grave inconvenience, a spiritual harm to follow, all these are justifiable circuмstances and valid arguments.

    I confess that for a long time I wondered about the meaning of the fourth condition. What does it exactly mean "in quorum Ecclesia valida existunt praedicta Sacramenta?" There is no doubt that, for example, an Old Catholic who has been validly ordained and fulfils the required conditions of matter, form and intention, can celebrate a valid although illicit Mass. Any validly ordained priest can administer a valid Extreme Unction, and any validly ordained Bishop can validly confirm and ordain.

    Nonetheless, the reference to the Sacrament of Penance as being valid in a non-Catholic church did puzzle me. It was only by rereading the directory Ad Totam Ecclesiam that I finally understood the precise meaning. For the Vatican innovators, this means that the non-Catholic priest who is validly ordained administers validly the Sacrament of Penance in his church.

    There is no other way to explain the restriction of #55 in the aforementioned directory:

    "Catholicus autem, similibus in rerum adiunctis, haec sacramenta petere nequit, nisi A MINISTRO QUI ORDINIS SACRAMENTUM VALIDE SUSCEPIT."

    This ecuмenical measure has become an acceptable practice in the post-Conciliar Church. So, in practice, one of the faithful who judges impossible to be able to approach morally a Catholic priest, and who sees in it a true spiritual advantage, can ask from a non-Catholic priest who is validly ordained to hear his confession. The absolution will be valid according to New Code Canon 844.

    He may also attend Mass, receive Holy Communion and also fulfill the Sunday obligation. The directory is explicit in #47, alluding to a Catholic who attends Sunday Mass "apud Fratres orientales seiunctos," in the Divine Liturgy of our separated brethren of the Oriental churches!

    7.4. Application to Our Case

    We will proceed once more accepting ad hominem an absurd opinion, namely the one of those who consider the members of the Society of Saint Pius X outside the Church, schismatic and even "founders of a new church," as a certain American Bishop brusquely certifies in grotesque personal letters written to concerned faithful and clergy.

    IF the Society of Saint Pius X is a non-Catholic church, and its priests are validly ordained (point that nobody in his right mind discusses), New Code Canon 844, # 4 authorizes any of the faithful to ask from them the Sacraments of Penance and Extreme Unction, and also to attend their Masses, fulfilling as well the Sunday obligation.

    The condition to take advantage of such permission is that there must be a true spiritual benefit for the person and that he avoids all danger for his faith. Any reasonable fear of spiritual harm arising from an approach to a Modernist priest in good standing will suffice to legitimate the recourse to the "Lefebvrites."

    We are decidedly approaching the kingdom of lunacy. Unfortunately, such a miserable argument is the one which may convince and pacify our antagonists.

     


    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #107 on: April 10, 2011, 02:57:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: stevusmagnus
    The Orthodox don't need jurisdiction for validity because they are schismatic.


    Why can Catholics confess to Orthodox priests?


    They are not supposed to as a matter of course, but if they did it would be valid as true schismatics require no jurisdiction for their sacraments to be valid.


    So, no problem then with SSPV or CMRI or the SSPX.  If this is true, what are we arguing about in this thread?

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #108 on: April 10, 2011, 02:59:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: stevusmagnus
    The Orthodox don't need jurisdiction for validity because they are schismatic.


    Why can Catholics confess to Orthodox priests?


    They are not supposed to as a matter of course, but if they did it would be valid as true schismatics require no jurisdiction for their sacraments to be valid.


    So, no problem then with SSPV or CMRI or the SSPX.  If this is true, what are we arguing about in this thread?


    You are saying these groups are true schismatics? Read the part of the study I quoted before. I don't think the '83 code envisions receiving sacraments from sede priests. No idea what status Rome considers them to be in.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #109 on: April 10, 2011, 03:02:20 PM »
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  • Quote
    It is clear: a Catholic may receive from a non-Catholic minister the Sacraments of Penance, Holy Communion and Extreme Unction, under the following conditions:

    There is a NEED, or a TRUE SPIRITUAL ADVANTAGE to be obtained,

    The danger of error and indifferentism is avoided,

    There is a physical or moral impossibility to approach a Catholic minister,

    The Sacraments to receive are valid in the church to which the minister belongs.


    The Church would never admit that a Catholic would be morally impeded from receiving NO sacraments because of erroneous sede views, thus this wouldn't apply to sede priests.


    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #110 on: April 10, 2011, 03:02:57 PM »
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  • You stated it above -- they deny the authority of Benedict.  How are they any different than the Orthodox??

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #111 on: April 10, 2011, 03:10:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    You stated it above -- they deny the authority of Benedict.  How are they any different than the Orthodox??


    The sedes don't see themselves as non-Catholics. The Orthodox do. These sections discuss approaching non-Catholic ministers.

    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #112 on: April 10, 2011, 03:35:16 PM »
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  • I do not think that the Orthodox would agree with you just as I do not think that sedes would agree with you comparing them to atheists.


    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #113 on: April 10, 2011, 09:31:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Hermenegild
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Hermenegild
    Quote from: SJB
    There is always a defect when there is no ordinary jurisdiction. The Church supplies for that defect.


    Are you suggesting that a visiting priest in a diocese that has no faculties from the local ordinary can say to the faithful “don’t worry the Church supplies”?

    I think that you would be hard pressed to find a canonist who envisaged Canon 209 in this way.




    No.


    Then what exactly are you suggesting?


    A priest cannot claim this if he can get permission. He can't neglect to seek permission or be rejected and claim to have supplied jurisdiction.  I'm suggesting the conditions must be that the permission is impossible to get and the common good is at stake.

    The law is at the service of man, not the other way around. We are not speaking of Divine Law here, just to cut off that response before you make it.

    Quote from: McHugh and Callan, Moral Theology
    413. In its use epieikeia is at once lawful and dangerous. (a) it is lawful, for it defends the common good, the judgment of conscience, the rights of individuals from subjection to a written docuмent, and from opposition by the abuse of power; (b) it is dangerous, for it rests on the judgment of the individual, which is prone to decide in his own favor to the detriment of the common good as well as self.


    There follows a very lengthy discussion of the use of epieikeia. If I get a chance, I'll scan and OCR it so I can post the text.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #114 on: April 11, 2011, 06:55:16 AM »
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  • What laws is anyone breaking?  Please be specific.

    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #115 on: April 11, 2011, 07:48:20 AM »
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  • What happens when he dies?  Where does it rest then?


    Offline MyrnaM

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    « Reply #116 on: April 11, 2011, 08:18:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: Hermenegild
    What common good is there for breaking the laws of the Church?


    During the Great Apostasy, when we have God's teaching to be faithful to the traditions you have been taught along with His promise the Church will not end.  Some church laws have ceased to be as they have become unnecessary, because the Church supplies through Jesus Christ the head of the Church always.  
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #117 on: April 11, 2011, 09:30:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: Hermenegild
    What common good is there for breaking the laws of the Church?


    Then just admit that you personally disagree with the entire concept of epieikeia.

     
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #118 on: April 11, 2011, 09:44:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: Hermenegild
    Well if you mean fullness and universal - nobody..until the next pope is elected.

    Do you agree?


    Yes, absolutely; but the same would be true if a Pope would resign his office or if he would lose that same office through heresy and/or apostasy.

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #119 on: April 12, 2011, 06:58:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: Hermenegild
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Hermenegild
    What common good is there for breaking the laws of the Church?


    Then just admit that you personally disagree with the entire concept of epieikeia.


    I don't. I was asking what is the justification for breaking the laws of the Church in this particular case.


    No, you said "the laws of the Church." So now you say you meant this particular law. Is that right?

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil