Author Topic: Theological position and vested interest (Read 815 times)

Mabel · « **on:** February 03, 2014, 12:38:50 PM »

Does everyone really consider this?
Here we have a bunch of groups and individuals telling each of us how to respond to the crisis. Can we trust them to be objective and not to let their own interests get in the way of that?

We have some groups saying we can't go to mass here or there, but they are in areas with heavy competition for parishioners with other traditional chapels. Perhaps, they have a hefty mortgage to pay or many monthly personal expenses.

Maybe they have been telling people the same thing as a matter of it being their long term policy. They might have thought to re-evaluate the situation but to do so would undermine their credibility. Would a reversal in position mean instability, uncertainty, or even abandonment by faithful supporters?

Perhaps they have a brand name or an image of Catholicism they want to uphold. Have they set up a parallel Church to replace the entity they oppose? Do they use pressure or other methods to control those who trust them?

Does the individual have a book to sell? An industry to support? Do they have a need for you to follow them? Are they living off of your donations? What is their goal in the end? Is it for you to save your soul or believe them without question?

Not one person, clergy or laity has the authority to dictate the response to the crisis. If we are to listen to their take, it should be advisable to consider these things. Not as an easy way to take lightly what is said, as most have well-formed points. But remember, why do they have those points in the first place and ask yourself what interest they might have in keeping them. Ultimately, what interest do they have in convincing each of us?

The Penny Catechism · « **Reply #1 on:** February 03, 2014, 04:29:39 PM »

I feel your vibe; although I don't believe your post will be popular.
Deep inside, most of us don't really know ourselves. Public education, media manipulation, and pop culture train us not to think for ourselves. Instead we tend to seek approval and toe the company line or else... we won't be 'cool' or 'in step with everyone.' And for the intellectuals, we're swayed to 'appear right', or seek 'being admired' or else we imagine our ego being somehow bruised rather than trying to win in the game of life - which is trying to save our soul in this crazy world. Perhaps simplicity in reality is what Jesus was referring when speaking of being like little children to enter into Heaven...

I see your point - 'whose to benefit,'/ 'whose to gain' is an approach to start having mental discipline and being open to the sad reality that behind many organizations (political or religious) our best interest is not their aim...but theirs.

Ironically, with the alternative media gaining more attention, I'm sensing that there's a fair percentage of non Catholics who sense something is really wrong and 'evil' with the world; although they may not be able to put a finger on it.

(sorry about digressing)... but from my initial thought; posts like yours don't gain a lot of traction, because it takes work and a lot of mental processing to dig and think - seeing reality 'as it is' rather than interpreting events according to how we want to see them; potentially falling prey to a 'cult' mentality. Which may not harm if all is going well, but during chaos and confusion, it can put us in a position to succuмb to outside/inside ~ political/religious forces who are overtly against us... and the 'vibe' I sense from your OP is that attempting to come to terms with reality... or changing cultural norms, may remove the fog and actually help one to creatively find ways to exploit the situation (rather than succuмb to it) in a rational manner...that is in removing barriers so grace can work in your soul.

Frances · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2014, 08:46:18 PM »

Quote from: Mabel

Does everyone really consider this?
Here we have a bunch of groups and individuals telling each of us how to respond to the crisis. Do they have a need for you to follow them? Are they living off of your donations? What is their goal in the end? Is it for you to save your soul or believe them without question?

:dancing-banana:
Somehow, I missed this excellent post. When the sspx crisis first came to light, I proposed the same basic question and answered it for myself. I came to tradition not all that long ago in 2005 with the goal of saving my soul. Nothing has changed. If a certain chapel or mass venue or priest has my soul's destiny at heart, I can go to Mass. If I discover another agenda, I leave. It's as simple as that.
:dancing-banana:

holysoulsacademy · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2014, 11:07:23 PM »

Quote from: Frances

:dancing-banana:Somehow, I missed this excellent post. When the sspx crisis first came to light, I proposed the same basic question and answered it for myself. I came to tradition not all that long ago in 2005 with the goal of saving my soul. Nothing has changed. If a certain chapel or mass venue or priest has my soul's destiny at heart, I can go to Mass. If I discover another agenda, I leave. It's as simple as that.
:dancing-banana:

That is the situation I struggle with a lot.
Maybe it is the idealist in me, a grave sin according to most people, but I keep hoping that the Mass I go to is with a priest who sincerely has my best interests at heart.

But I have come to realize that is a very tall order that even I can't fill. So I have learned to accept. Accept that there will almost always be some sort of agenda.

Did I just sound like a cynic? Maybe I am moving away from idealism.

Mabel · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2014, 11:39:49 PM »

Quote from: holysoulsacademy

Quote from: Frances
:dancing-banana:Somehow, I missed this excellent post. When the sspx crisis first came to light, I proposed the same basic question and answered it for myself. I came to tradition not all that long ago in 2005 with the goal of saving my soul. Nothing has changed. If a certain chapel or mass venue or priest has my soul's destiny at heart, I can go to Mass. If I discover another agenda, I leave. It's as simple as that.
:dancing-banana:

That is the situation I struggle with a lot.
Maybe it is the idealist in me, a grave sin according to most people, but I keep hoping that the Mass I go to is with a priest who sincerely has my best interests at heart.

But I have come to realize that is a very tall order that even I can't fill. So I have learned to accept. Accept that there will almost always be some sort of agenda.

Did I just sound like a cynic? Maybe I am moving away from idealism.

In these times? I think that you try to think well of the priest, just as anyone else, but remember he has no one to guide him or censure him. We have no one to appeal to in order to help him if he needs correction. But, I wasn't referring totally to clergy, laymen need to be treated with similar standards, especially when they are promoting a position or opinion.

My point is that we have to be careful to evaluate who is telling us what and why. We also have to be ready to change and correct course if the circuмstances change. Some people aren't going to change or reconsider their position if they have vested interests.

holysoulsacademy · « **Reply #5 on:** February 05, 2014, 12:06:45 AM »

Quote from: Mabel

Quote from: holysoulsacademy
Quote from: Frances
:dancing-banana:Somehow, I missed this excellent post. When the sspx crisis first came to light, I proposed the same basic question and answered it for myself. I came to tradition not all that long ago in 2005 with the goal of saving my soul. Nothing has changed. If a certain chapel or mass venue or priest has my soul's destiny at heart, I can go to Mass. If I discover another agenda, I leave. It's as simple as that.
:dancing-banana:

That is the situation I struggle with a lot.
Maybe it is the idealist in me, a grave sin according to most people, but I keep hoping that the Mass I go to is with a priest who sincerely has my best interests at heart.

But I have come to realize that is a very tall order that even I can't fill. So I have learned to accept. Accept that there will almost always be some sort of agenda.

Did I just sound like a cynic? Maybe I am moving away from idealism.

In these times? I think that you try to think well of the priest, just as anyone else, but remember he has no one to guide him or censure him. We have no one to appeal to in order to help him if he needs correction. But, I wasn't referring totally to clergy, laymen need to be treated with similar standards, especially when they are promoting a position or opinion.

My point is that we have to be careful to evaluate who is telling us what and why. We also have to be ready to change and correct course if the circuмstances change. Some people aren't going to change or reconsider their position if they have vested interests.

What if the vested interests differ from the people coordinating these Masses and the priest?
What are we to do?
I am in a very uncomfortable situation in our chapel as I feel that those who are coordinating things have an agenda, yet when I tried to speak or question it, well, you can just imagine!
And when I tried to speak to the priest I was told that there was nothing there so to just drop it.
So I did.

Mabel · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2014, 12:34:34 AM »

Quote from: holysoulsacademy

Quote from: Mabel
Quote from: holysoulsacademy
Quote from: Frances
:dancing-banana:Somehow, I missed this excellent post. When the sspx crisis first came to light, I proposed the same basic question and answered it for myself. I came to tradition not all that long ago in 2005 with the goal of saving my soul. Nothing has changed. If a certain chapel or mass venue or priest has my soul's destiny at heart, I can go to Mass. If I discover another agenda, I leave. It's as simple as that.
:dancing-banana:

That is the situation I struggle with a lot.
Maybe it is the idealist in me, a grave sin according to most people, but I keep hoping that the Mass I go to is with a priest who sincerely has my best interests at heart.

But I have come to realize that is a very tall order that even I can't fill. So I have learned to accept. Accept that there will almost always be some sort of agenda.

Did I just sound like a cynic? Maybe I am moving away from idealism.

In these times? I think that you try to think well of the priest, just as anyone else, but remember he has no one to guide him or censure him. We have no one to appeal to in order to help him if he needs correction. But, I wasn't referring totally to clergy, laymen need to be treated with similar standards, especially when they are promoting a position or opinion.

My point is that we have to be careful to evaluate who is telling us what and why. We also have to be ready to change and correct course if the circuмstances change. Some people aren't going to change or reconsider their position if they have vested interests.

What if the vested interests differ from the people coordinating these Masses and the priest?
What are we to do?
I am in a very uncomfortable situation in our chapel as I feel that those who are coordinating things have an agenda, yet when I tried to speak or question it, well, you can just imagine!
And when I tried to speak to the priest I was told that there was nothing there so to just drop it.
So I did.

It really cuts both ways. I've seen a priest's hands tied, even having what he can't preach about dictated to him. I've also seen clergy sell off church property right out from under the feet of those who paid for it.

I don't ever recommend going through a coordinator, maybe as a last resort. They don't need to know your business and the nature of many people is that they will spread your business. Email, direct phone calls, and scheduling a private meeting have always been my first resort.

I have been to and know of several chapels with a board of directors or laity in charge of the property. It can work, but when it doesn't it is a difficult situation. When it isn't working out, you know the situation is unstable.

holysoulsacademy · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2014, 12:50:57 AM »

Quote from: Mabel

I have been to and know of several chapels with a board of directors or laity in charge of the property. It can work, but when it doesn't it is a difficult situation. When it isn't working out, you know the situation is unstable.

This already happened to us - when the priest died BOD claimed Fr. changed his mind on his deathbed - and the diocese ended up with the property with a diocesan group of Trad priests running the place.
Still makes me weep everytime I think about what happened, all the hard work the priest and the people put in, all for naught.

I think that is how most Trads end up in the Indult and NO - they are attracted to the false "heirarchy" and false"structure" and false"security" that seems to be in them.
They get weary of the fight, the struggle, the anguish, the pain. I get weary a lot too, but am determined to never go back to NO/Diocesan/FSSP.

Remind me (knock me on the head) if I start talking otherwise on the forum!

Mabel · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2014, 12:17:04 PM »

Quote from: holysoulsacademy

Quote from: Mabel

I have been to and know of several chapels with a board of directors or laity in charge of the property. It can work, but when it doesn't it is a difficult situation. When it isn't working out, you know the situation is unstable.

This already happened to us - when the priest died BOD claimed Fr. changed his mind on his deathbed - and the diocese ended up with the property with a diocesan group of Trad priests running the place.
Still makes me weep everytime I think about what happened, all the hard work the priest and the people put in, all for naught.

I think that is how most Trads end up in the Indult and NO - they are attracted to the false "heirarchy" and false"structure" and false"security" that seems to be in them.
They get weary of the fight, the struggle, the anguish, the pain. I get weary a lot too, but am determined to never go back to NO/Diocesan/FSSP.

Remind me (knock me on the head) if I start talking otherwise on the forum!

Just make sure not to put all your eggs into the unstable situation basket!

I've seen independent chapels close or the board hires a priest that isn't validly ordained just to get someone in there.

Let me know if you get tempted, I'll

you and then give you some alternate suggestions.