Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Theological Heresies of the New Mass  (Read 1058 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 10312
  • Reputation: +6220/-1742
  • Gender: Male
Theological Heresies of the New Mass
« on: November 17, 2021, 10:13:42 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I ran across an article that quoted the V2 catechism about their V2 theology on the "new mass".  Let's examine the heresies just from this small article (I'm sure, unfortunately, there are many more):


    Quote
    1353 In the epiclesis (i.e. eucharistic prayer), the Church asks the Father to send his Holy Spirit (or the power of his blessing178) on the bread and wine, so that by his power they may become the body and blood of Jesus Christ and so that those who take part in the Eucharist may be one body and one spirit (some liturgical traditions put the epiclesis after the anamnesis).

    1.  This seems to falsely teach that the Holy Ghost is responsible for Transubstantiation/Consecration, instead of Christ, who offers Himself through the priest. 
    2.  It also seems to deny the power of the priesthood to offer sacrifice and to be "another Christ". 
    3.  It further seems to replace "Christ's offering" with the "Church asks".
    4.  V2 explains (repeatedly) that "The Church" = "people of God".  This means, heretically, that the Church/people offer Mass together.  Again, a denial of the priesthood.

    Quote
    In the institution narrative, the power of the words and the action of Christ, and the power of the Holy Spirit, make sacramentally present under the species of bread and wine Christ's body and blood, his sacrifice offered on the cross once for all.

    1.  The consecration is not a narrative, but a 1st person offering, made by the Priest, who speaks as Christ Himself.  The narrative idea is condemned by Trent and is heresy.
    2.  Another denial of the priesthood, when it says "action of Christ" and "power of the Holy Spirit".  No mention of the priestly nature (and necessity) of it.
    3.  No mention of Christ's "soul and Divinity" just His "body and blood".  Another heresy for this humanistic, new age service.
    4.  It's heresy to say that Christ's sacrifice was offered "once" when EVERY. SINGLE. MASS. is supposed to be His sacrifice again, and again, and again, until the end of the time.
    5.  "For all".  Another heresy.


    Quote
    1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice.
    Heresy again.  The Eucharist is a sacrifice because it represents Christ's death on the Cross (Good Friday) not because it represents the Passover (Holy Thursday).  This is totally, diabolically, subtlely backwards!



    Quote
    the sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."185
    This is true, but it is misleading, based on the first sentence of 1365 above.  It is misleading because it implies that the sacrifice of the Mass = Holy Thursday.  The true "sacrificial character" is Christ's bloody passion and death for sins.  The Eucharist is the unbloody re-enactment of Good Friday.  This catechism tries to (heretically) explain the Mass ONLY by way of Holy Thursday, while COMPLETELY ignoring Good Friday.  This is a protestant heresy and quasi blasphemy.



    Quote
    In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."186
    This is also true, but based on all of the previous sentences, is misleading.  It is true that Christ is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow.  So it is true that Christ gives us "the very body" which He offered on the Cross.  But what is heresy, is the denial that each mass = ANOTHER calvary.  Each mass = Christ offering Himself on the Cross AGAIN.  So while Christ offers His "same body" at each Mass, this catechism implies that the Eucharist comes from the ORIGINAL Good Friday in 33AD and not the Good Friday (in an unbloody manner) which JUST HAPPENED on the altar.  Another denial of the (true, doctrinal) sacrificial nature of the Mass.


    Again, why isn't the priest mentioned?  He's the one that gives us the sacrament.


    Quote
    1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
    Heresy!  The Mass is an ACTUAL sacrifice, not a broadway play that "makes present" something from the past; not a memorial.  

    Quote
    [Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross,
    More protestant heresy.  Calvary is not a one-time sacrifice by Christ, but happens at every Mass.



    Quote
    to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented,

    More heresy and use of "re-present".


    Quote
    its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.187
    The Mass is not a memorial but the ACTUAL calvary passion, in an unbloody manner.  The above is total heresy.




    Quote
    1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice:
    What?  No, they are the same sacrifice, Calvary being bloody and Mass being unbloody.  They are equal in perfection and holiness.  But there is not only ONE sacrifice (which they imply is Good Friday)...but HUNDREDS of masses/sacrifices said every day, all around the world.



    Quote
    "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner."188
    This is probably the only orthodox idea in the whole catechism, but it's corrupted by all the half-truths, protestant errors and outright heresies listed above.  Bottomline - the new mass is not, and does not claim to be, an actual sacrifice.  It claims to be a re-presentation of calvary, a memorial of Holy Thursday, which remembers Christ's (heretical and backwards) "sacrifice" on Holy Thursday, by which He "offered" Himself to us in the Eucharist (...except, this is the wrong offering).


    The theology is totally bonkers.




    Offline roscoe

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7611
    • Reputation: +617/-404
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Theological Heresies of the New Mass
    « Reply #1 on: November 17, 2021, 11:39:06 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The error in the above post can be detected w/o need to read the second sentence. The anti-pope JP2 is Not true Il Papa. :fryingpan:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10312
    • Reputation: +6220/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Theological Heresies of the New Mass
    « Reply #2 on: November 18, 2021, 06:56:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    The Catechism of the Catholic Church is not, and cannot be, heretical. 


    :facepalm:  Now you’re just making things up, Xavier.  

    Offline Todd The Trad

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 594
    • Reputation: +192/-8
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Theological Heresies of the New Mass
    « Reply #3 on: November 18, 2021, 08:01:26 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • No catechism is infallible.
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10312
    • Reputation: +6220/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Theological Heresies of the New Mass
    « Reply #4 on: November 18, 2021, 08:01:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Pope St. John Paul II said the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a sure norm for teaching the Faith.
    "Sure norm" = infallible?  :laugh1:  No, it doesn't.  No theologian has ever claimed that a catechism is infallible. 

    The errors in the new-catechism are GROSSLY at adds with Trent (and traditional, orthodox teaching).  It's not even close.  V2 created a new theology of the mass; a protestant/Martin Luther understanding.


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Theological Heresies of the New Mass
    « Reply #5 on: November 18, 2021, 08:39:01 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No catechism is infallible.

    Maybe you meant to say, “A catechism is not infallible simply because it is a catechism?”

    Otherwise, it is certainly possible for a catechism to be infallible (eg., If it only recounted teachings made infallible through the OUM, then that catechism would certainly be infallible).

    That said, the CCC would certainly not be infallible, because it would contain many points of doctrine not contained in Tradition, or made infallible by the OUM.  And neither is it the subject of a declaration of the extraordinary magisterium.  So, since it does not conform to either path to infallibility, the conclusion must be that it is not infallible.

    The proof of it is the 1992 CCC changed its teaching on the death penalty in 2018 (with the newer/current position being the erroneous prohibition of capital punishment), which they could not have done if the 1992 CCC were infallible.

    https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/stories/the-2018-revised-catholic-catechism
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Theological Heresies of the New Mass
    « Reply #6 on: November 18, 2021, 09:26:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Maybe you meant to say, “A catechism is not infallible simply because it is a catechism?”

    Otherwise, it is certainly possible for a catechism to be infallible (eg., If it only recounted teachings made infallible through the OUM, then that catechism would certainly be infallible).

    That said, the CCC would certainly not be infallible, because it would contain many points of doctrine not contained in Tradition, or made infallible by the OUM.  And neither is it the subject of a declaration of the extraordinary magisterium.  So, since it does not conform to either path to infallibility, the conclusion must be that it is not infallible.

    The proof of it is the 1992 CCC changed its teaching on the death penalty in 2018 (with the newer/current position being the erroneous prohibition of capital punishment), which they could not have done if the 1992 CCC were infallible.

    https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/stories/the-2018-revised-catholic-catechism

    Compare the 2018 teaching prohibiting capital punishment to the contradictory and perennial doctrine of the Church in this excellent article:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_capital_punishment 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31202
    • Reputation: +27121/-495
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Theological Heresies of the New Mass
    « Reply #7 on: November 18, 2021, 11:23:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Compare the 2018 teaching prohibiting capital punishment to the contradictory and perennial doctrine of the Church in this excellent article:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_capital_punishment


    Exhibit 3221 why the Novus Ordo religion is for women and f*gs. Completely emotional and feminine. Men understand the need to execute capital criminals for the good of society. They have the -- guts -- to do what needs to be done. Women shouldn't have to do such ugly things. Nevertheless -- when women take over, you end up with problems like this.

    In other news, human emotions should be lower than, subservient towards, the higher faculty of reason/intellect. It is always a disaster when a man inverts this God-given order, and places emotion on the throne.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2449
    • Reputation: +964/-1098
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Theological Heresies of the New Mass
    « Reply #8 on: November 18, 2021, 01:00:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Maybe you meant to say, “A catechism is not infallible simply because it is a catechism?”

    Otherwise, it is certainly possible for a catechism to be infallible (eg., If it only recounted teachings made infallible through the OUM, then that catechism would certainly be infallible).

    That said, the CCC would certainly not be infallible, because it would contain many points of doctrine not contained in Tradition, or made infallible by the OUM.  And neither is it the subject of a declaration of the extraordinary magisterium.  So, since it does not conform to either path to infallibility, the conclusion must be that it is not infallible.

    The proof of it is the 1992 CCC changed its teaching on the death penalty in 2018 (with the newer/current position being the erroneous prohibition of capital punishment), which they could not have done if the 1992 CCC were infallible.

    https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/stories/the-2018-revised-catholic-catechism
    It's a bit of a silly distinction you're making here. Otherwise I could claim to be speaking infallibly because I'm recounting a dogma. But I wouldn't be: it's not that I'm speaking infallibly, but that I'm speaking of something that is infallible, and there is no guarantee that my recounting of it will be correct. Even the most minor of paraphrasings could turn an infallible dogma into an untruth. Now, a catechism can quote a dogma word for word, and so that quote would be infallible, but it wouldn't mean the book as a whole is, unless the book was literally nothing but a list of ex cathedra quotes. That wouldn't even be possible, since many of the Church's teachings were never explicitly defined like that.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Theological Heresies of the New Mass
    « Reply #9 on: November 18, 2021, 01:14:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's a bit of a silly distinction you're making here. Otherwise I could claim to be speaking infallibly because I'm recounting a dogma. But I wouldn't be: it's not that I'm speaking infallibly, but that I'm speaking of something that is infallible, and there is no guarantee that my recounting of it will be correct. Even the most minor of paraphrasings could turn an infallible dogma into an untruth. Now, a catechism can quote a dogma word for word, and so that quote would be infallible, but it wouldn't mean the book as a whole is, unless the book was literally nothing but a list of ex cathedra quotes. That wouldn't even be possible, since many of the Church's teachings were never explicitly defined like that.

    I think you outmaneuvered yourself:

    See your own post highlighted in red above, and compare to that stipulation contained in mine:

    "(eg., If it only recounted teachings made infallible through the OUM, then that catechism would certainly be infallible)."

    Ergo, if you have refuted me, you have refuted yourself.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline StLouisIX

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1301
    • Reputation: +966/-115
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Theological Heresies of the New Mass
    « Reply #10 on: November 18, 2021, 01:15:03 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fr. Wathen's criticisms of the New Catechism were very sound, and should be listened to by more people. He points out, in particular, much of the secular humanist way of thinking that underlines this text and the Conciliar Revolution in general. 

    A playlist containing some of his commentary on the New Catechism. 



    Offline Marion

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1867
    • Reputation: +759/-1134
    • Gender: Male
    • sedem ablata
    Re: Theological Heresies of the New Mass
    « Reply #11 on: November 18, 2021, 06:13:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Roman Catechism (of Trent) isn't infallible, as some errors were removed by Pope Clement VIII.

    The CCS, Catechism of the Conciliar Sect, is infallibly loo paper right from the start.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1867
    • Reputation: +759/-1134
    • Gender: Male
    • sedem ablata
    Re: Theological Heresies of the New Mass
    « Reply #12 on: November 18, 2021, 06:15:14 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • Fr. Wathen ...

    The Dimond brothers list some of his heresies.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline StLouisIX

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1301
    • Reputation: +966/-115
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Theological Heresies of the New Mass
    « Reply #13 on: November 18, 2021, 06:20:21 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Dimond brothers list some of his heresies.

    The Dimond brothers think they are the only true Catholics left in the world, of course they would say Fr. Wathen was a heretic. 

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41908
    • Reputation: +23946/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Theological Heresies of the New Mass
    « Reply #14 on: November 18, 2021, 06:31:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Catechism of the Catholic Church is not, and cannot be, heretical.

    Agreed.  Not being heretical is not the same as being infallible.