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Author Topic: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue  (Read 3872 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2019, 11:38:28 AM »
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  • This "universal adherence" concept undermines the V2 papal legitimacy even more than mere "acceptance".
    It certainly does undermine the conciliar popes legitimacy even more, but it still makes more sense than Universal Acceptance and/or infallibly safe.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
    « Reply #16 on: May 28, 2019, 11:44:54 AM »
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  • I whip out 19th / 20th century theologians ("recent theologians") because their own speculations and teachings are taken to be teachings of the Church, even to the point of being dogmatic teachings to many, which is one major reason we are in this crisis.  

    Leaving aside the rest of this post (which is more vitriolic than I feel comfortable being at the moment, I'll just say that much), this particular point is a a big.  reason I haven't been convinced of Sedevacantism. In my experience, they tend to quote ultramontanist theologians from between Vatican I, and Vatican II, to defend their extremely high view of the papacy, but they can't prove to me that that was a consensus, or even if there was, that a consensus for a super short period of history is itself definitive.  I might be wrong on how the ordinary magisterium works, but I haven't yet been shown that *the Church* teaches that 5-6 popes in a row teaching something in non-infallible encyclicals means that it has to be right.

    To be honest, it makes sense to me.  Post Vatican I, and Pre Vatican II, the Papacy really was a bastion of conservatism against the influx of modernism, so it makes total sense to me that guys like Pius IX, Pius X, and Pius XII would've been really optimistic about their own offices.  I don't see why the fact that they were ultramontanists means they had to be right.  At any rate, they presumably *also* would've said that whoever the College of Cardinals elects as a pope can't be questioned, so either way, they were wrong about something (even if you take the hermeneutic of continuity approach, which I realize most people here don't, you still are going to have to put a lot more scrutiny on Francis' encyclicals than St Pius X would've wanted applied to his.)  

    If someone could show me a moral unanimity, from the very beginning of the Church till now, or even perhaps from the Great Schism till now, of that very high view of the papacy, that would make me seriously consider sedevacantism, but until that is done, I don't feel obligated to it because some even highly esteemed theologians and popes between Vatican I and Vatican II had a view of the papacy that would seem to demand it now.


    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
    « Reply #17 on: May 28, 2019, 02:00:47 PM »
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  • Universal acceptance of Francis by Who?


    Quote
    The Catholic Church teaches that artificial contraception, such as condoms and birth control pills, is morally unacceptable.

    This teaching is rejected even among Catholics who attend Mass at least weekly, who tend to hold views on other social issues that fall more in line with official teaching when compared to the wider Catholic population. About one in 10 (13 percent) in this group said contraception is morally wrong, with 87 percent saying it is either acceptable or not a moral issue.

    87 percent are excommunicated by reason of mortal sin. They are NOT to receive communion. Therefore "Universal acceptance" is a crack pot idea in this day and age. Are you so dense that you haven't heard about Vatican II and the beginning of the great apostasy?

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
    « Reply #18 on: May 28, 2019, 02:51:43 PM »
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  • Universal acceptance of Francis by Who?


    87 percent are excommunicated by reason of mortal sin. They are NOT to receive communion. Therefore "Universal acceptance" is a crack pot idea in this day and age. Are you so dense that you haven't heard about Vatican II and the beginning of the great apostasy?
    You should probably calm down :)  I didn't personally attack you, I asked a question based on what somebody said.

    I've now heard numbers ranging from 87-99 percent of Novus Ordos aren't really Catholic because they deny one or more of the dogmas of the faith.

    its possible that some percentage, even if a low one, of the 87% don't realize they're going against the teaching of the Church when they say that artificial contraception is OK.

    But that's neither here nor there.  Even if we assume that 95% of the Novus Ordo is "not really Catholic" and thus doesn't count, that still leaves you with 50 million Novus Ordos who are fully Catholic (even if you might disagree with them on some things), vs what, 1-2 million trads at most?  Make it 99% of Novus Ordos being "not really Catholic" and that still leaves you over 10 million, which is still more than there are trads, by a substantial margin.

    Of course, if you assume that in order to be truly Catholic, you not only have to accept every dogma of the Church, but *also* reject Vatican II and that the Novus Ordo is licit, than sure, at that point I agree that most people who fall into that category do indeed have doubts about the post conciliar claimants, even though most of those people do still ultimately conclude that they are "probably" legitimate.  Ladislaus isn't wrong there.  Archbishop Lefebvre had doubts.  Bishop Williamson has doubts.  I'm sure there are others.  But my point is, and has been from the beginning, this seems like a question begging standard.  We need some reason *why* those in the Novus Ordo who we wouldn't call "traditional" yet are certainly "Catholic" are being excluded.  And so far I'm not really getting any reasons for that.  So either the dissent of a minority of the faithful makes it licit to doubt a pope (in which case I'm not sure of what basis the EOs or Old Catholics can be condemned, they do, after all, accept the Catholic hierarchy of the 1st millennium), or else I don't know what else I'm missing.



    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
    « Reply #19 on: May 28, 2019, 02:54:29 PM »
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  • Yes, that's to my point also.  Theologians describe the concept of Universal Acceptance as deriving from the fact that the Church recognizes the Pope as a rule of faith and cannot adhere to a false rule of faith.  As I mentioned, the number of Novus Ordites who actually accept the V2 hierarchy's Magisterium are next to zero.  So how can those of us who still, thank God, have the faith look to the Novus Ordo throngs to determine our own rule of faith?  It's nonsense.  That would be as if the Arians had managed to install one of their own onto the Holy See and claiming that, since 90% of the Church had gone Arian, this man was suddenly a legitimate pope.
    My argument is less like that, and more based on 90-99% of the 10% of Trinitarians remaining, if that makes sense.  My argument against you (and to be clear my issue here is mostly with the logic of the argument moreso than any particular conclusion) is based on those Novus Ordos who do actually accept the Magisterium, not those who don't.  (Why do you say the number of NOs who actually accept the V2 hierarchy's magisterium is next to zero?  And even if its 1%, that's still a lot more than the trad movement.) 


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
    « Reply #20 on: May 28, 2019, 03:02:13 PM »
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  • BTW, I'm not 100% certain that Francis is Pope either.  Maybe I should be, but I'm not.  I do treat him as such, and pray for him as such, until or unless the Church tells me otherwise.  And *especially* being Eastern Rite, I really don't freak out about it.

    So I'm bothered by the logic here, but I'm not *actually* accusing Sedevacantists of heresy.  That's above my pay grade.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
    « Reply #21 on: May 28, 2019, 03:23:11 PM »
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  • BTW, I'm not 100% certain that Francis is Pope either.

    And, you see, that is PRECISELY the problem.  Under a normal "Universal Peaceful Acceptance" scenario you could no more be less than 100% certain that the papal claimant is the Pope than you are 100% certain that God is Three Divine Persons.  It's a dogmatic fact, so if you don't believe it with the certainty of faith, that means you don't believe as it must be believed, and you are not a strict sedeplenist.  It does not suffice for a Catholic to say, "He's probably the pope." or even "It's extremely likely that he's the pope."  If it were merely "extremely likely" that Pius XII was a legitimate pope, then it's also just "extremely likely" that Our Lady was assumed into heaven.

    Now, the mere fact that so many of us feel as you do, uncertain about whether he's the Pope, is prima facie evidence that there is in fact no Universal Peaceful Acceptance.  Otherwise, none of us would so much as entertain even a shadow of a doubt.  We would be in the same state as the Catholics of the early 1950s vis-a-vis Pius XII.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
    « Reply #22 on: May 28, 2019, 03:28:16 PM »
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  • And even if its 1%, that's still a lot more than the trad movement.)

    But Universal Acceptance is not about mere numbers, a democratic exercise where the majority has it.  Even if there's a 9-to-1 outnumbering of Novus Ordo Catholics who still have the faith of the Traditional Catholics who doubt the V2 popes, that's still 10% of the Church which has serious reasonable positive doubts about these men.  What do you think the percentage was under Pius XII?  .0000001% maybe.  It's so bad that you have Novus Ordo theologians now accusing Francis of heresy.  And I'll bet that on top of everything else, those 9 Novus Ordo conservatives against 1 who believe that these men are popes do so unthinkingly, uncritically, without examining the issue.  They see a guy wearing white walking around acting like a pope, and that's good enough for them.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
    « Reply #23 on: May 28, 2019, 03:44:45 PM »
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  • I don’t think these concepts ever included the laity.  So it doesn’t matter if  a pope is accepted or rejected by whatever percentage of the laity.  The important thing for indefectibility is that the hierarchy and specifically the Roman clergy and more specifically the cardinals must be in agreement that this claimant is the legitimate one.  We don’t get to second-guess the decision of the hierarchy.  We as laity must accept whatever they decide.  But in the present case there was an apparent fraud committed and the clergy did not universally accept the Conciliar claimants as Ladislaus has already pointed out.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
    « Reply #24 on: May 28, 2019, 03:53:44 PM »
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  • So I'm bothered by the logic here, but I'm not *actually* accusing Sedevacantists of heresy.  That's above my pay grade.
    You wouldn’t be accusing us of heresy, what we would be guilty of would be schism, if he were in fact a true pope.

    However, these canonists say the following about a doubtful pope and schism:

    F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicuм, 7:398, 1943)

    Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his election, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948

    De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter'] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his election or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-)


    Also, in the book “The Defense of the Catholic Church" by Fr. Francis X. Doyle, S.J..

    On page 259 Fr. Doyle states the following:

    "The Church is a visible society with a visible Ruler. If there can be any doubt about who that visible Ruler is, he is not visible, and hence, where there is any doubt about whether a person has been legitimately elected Pope, that doubt must be removed before he can become the visible head of Christ’s Church. Blessed Bellarmine, S.J., says: 'A doubtful Pope must be considered as not Pope.’”

    Then on page 260 of the same book, here is what he writes:

    The Supreme Pontiff can lose the Primacy in these ways:

    1. By voluntary resignation, as in the case of Celestine V.
    2. By open heresy, by which he ceases to be a member of Christ's Church. This, however, while not contradictory to reason, is hardly conceivable.
    3. By insanity.
    4. By death.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
    « Reply #25 on: May 28, 2019, 03:57:25 PM »
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  • I don’t think these concepts ever included the laity.  So it doesn’t matter if  a pope is accepted or rejected by whatever percentage of the laity.

    True, but I suspect that the breakdown of numbers/percentages would be roughly along the same lines ... with many of the same considerations applying.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
    « Reply #26 on: May 28, 2019, 04:00:36 PM »
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  • Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his election, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948

    This is important, distinguishing simple disobedience from schism (as well as the part about the doubtfulness).  I refuse to take out the garbage (after my father commanded me) because I don't feel like it:  simple disobedience.  I refuse to take out the garbage because I feel that my father has no right to tell me what to do:  schism.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
    « Reply #27 on: May 28, 2019, 04:02:15 PM »
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  • You wouldn’t be accusing us of heresy, what we would be guilty of would be schism, if he were in fact a true pope.

    However, these canonists say the following about a doubtful pope and schism:

    F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicuм, 7:398, 1943)

    Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his election, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948

    De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter'] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his election or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-)


    Also, in the book “The Defense of the Catholic Church" by Fr. Francis X. Doyle, S.J..

    On page 259 Fr. Doyle states the following:

    "The Church is a visible society with a visible Ruler. If there can be any doubt about who that visible Ruler is, he is not visible, and hence, where there is any doubt about whether a person has been legitimately elected Pope, that doubt must be removed before he can become the visible head of Christ’s Church. Blessed Bellarmine, S.J., says: 'A doubtful Pope must be considered as not Pope.’”

    Then on page 260 of the same book, here is what he writes:

    The Supreme Pontiff can lose the Primacy in these ways:

    1. By voluntary resignation, as in the case of Celestine V.
    2. By open heresy, by which he ceases to be a member of Christ's Church. This, however, while not contradictory to reason, is hardly conceivable.
    3. By insanity.
    4. By death.

    These are very important quotes.  Father William Jenkins cites a prominent theologian who spends a great deal of time on the "Papa Dubius" scenario and why such a one lacked any formal authority.  I wish could track those quotes down.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
    « Reply #28 on: May 28, 2019, 07:01:43 PM »
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  • BTW: The Wernz & Vidal and Cardinal De Lugo quotes were translated by John S. Daly.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The Whole Universal Acceptance Issue
    « Reply #29 on: May 28, 2019, 08:22:53 PM »
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  • And, you see, that is PRECISELY the problem.  Under a normal "Universal Peaceful Acceptance" scenario you could no more be less than 100% certain that the papal claimant is the Pope than you are 100% certain that God is Three Divine Persons.  It's a dogmatic fact, so if you don't believe it with the certainty of faith, that means you don't believe as it must be believed, and you are not a strict sedeplenist.  It does not suffice for a Catholic to say, "He's probably the pope." or even "It's extremely likely that he's the pope."  If it were merely "extremely likely" that Pius XII was a legitimate pope, then it's also just "extremely likely" that Our Lady was assumed into heaven.

    Now, the mere fact that so many of us feel as you do, uncertain about whether he's the Pope, is prima facie evidence that there is in fact no Universal Peaceful Acceptance.  Otherwise, none of us would so much as entertain even a shadow of a doubt.  We would be in the same state as the Catholics of the early 1950s vis-a-vis Pius XII.
    I have no reason whatsoever to doubt the legitimacy of Pius XII, but if I did, I'd say the same thing I'm saying about Francis.  "I assume he's the Pope until the Church tells me he isn't."  

    Though honestly, this raises other questions.  Are you as sure that the Catholic Church is the one True Church ,as opposed to the Eastern Orthodox one, is the one true Church, as you are that God is Three Divine Persons?  TBH, I'm not.  Although I certainly *believe* both, I'm much more sure on the Trinity than I am that I'm on the right side of the Great Schism.  So, by that logic itself maybe I'm "not a real Catholic."  Maybe that actually is a way to make sense of the conclusion you originally described.  I think most conservative Sedeplenists would admit they're more sure on the Trinity than on Catholicism, en toto, but Sedevacantists would be much more likely to deny any uncertainty about either proposition, on grounds that they're heretics for having *doubt* or something.

    IDK if that thought made sense.