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Author Topic: The Vatican II Renewal: Myth or Reality  (Read 691 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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The Vatican II Renewal: Myth or Reality
« on: May 02, 2024, 01:52:43 PM »
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    From 2003

    I haven't seen this in a while so just wanted to post a few snips out of it.



    "....I have no personal stories about what it was like before the Council. But I do have facts. And the facts show that the Church was in the midst of an unprecedented period of growth in the several decades before the Council.

    That conclusion is inescapable by looking at the figures in just a few representative areas. And forgive me for throwing a lot of numbers at you, but as a lawyer I feel a statistic-laden brief is necessary to establish my case beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Priests: In 1920 there were 21,019 total priests in the United States. In 1930 there were 26,925, in 1940 there were 33,912, in 1945 there were 38,451, in 1950 there were 42,970, in 1955 there were 46,970, in 1960 there were 53,796. This is not the mark of a declining Church, but of a vigorous Church — in 1960 it had a record number of men who were its frontline soldiers, whose ranks had grown 15 percent in the five years between 1955 and 1960.

    Seminarians: As one would expect, as the number of priests increased, so did the number of seminarians — and it continued to increase substantially up to the Council. In 1920 there were 8,944 seminarians, in 1930 there were 16,300, in 1940 there were 17,087, in 1945 there were 21,523, in 1950 there were 25,622, in 1955 there were 32,394, in 1960 there were 39,896.

    Seminaries: The bishops and heads of religious orders found it extremely difficult to keep up with demand and had to build scores of new seminaries. In 1945 there were 53 diocesan seminaries, in 1950 there were 72, in 1955 there were 78, in 1960 there were 96. This was a huge increase in property plant and equipment to accommodate the young men who were storming the seminaries to be trained as priests. Religious seminaries experienced similar growth. There were 258 in 1945, 316 in 1950, 385 in 1955, and 429 in 1960. Remember that building a seminary is a tremendous investment — it is really a leap of faith by the chief executive officer, in this case the bishop or head of a religious order, that the organization is growing and will continue to grow in the future. The tremendous boom in seminary construction was a true testament that the Church was growing and, more importantly, perceived itself to be growing, in the period before the Council.

    Priestless parishes: And as one would also expect, as the number of priests increased, the number of parishes without a resident priest was declining. In 1945 there were 839 parishes without a resident pastor, in 1950 there were 791, in 1955 there were 673, in 1960 there were 546.

    Brothers: The number of religious brothers was also on the increase in the decades before the Council. In 1945 there were 6,594, in 1950 there were 7,377, in 1955 there were 8,752, in 1960 there were 10,473.

    Sisters: The next book that is crying out to be written is a study of the destruction of the convents and women's religious orders since the Second Vatican Council. What a profound tragedy. And the wreckage has been so devastating, so thorough, that one can only wonder whether it had a diabolical aspect to it. But contrary to what some would have you believe, it wasn't like that before the Council. In 1945 there were 138,079 sisters, in 1950 there were 147,310, in 1955 there were 158,069, in 1960 there were 168,527.

    Parochial schools: Dioceses and parishes predict the future by building more schools in order to educate young Catholics. In 1920 there were 5,852 parochial schools, in 1930 there were 7,225, in 1940 there were 7,597, in 1945 there were 7,493, in 1950 there were 7,914, in 1955 there were 8,843, in 1960 there were 9,897.

    Parochial school students: Parents who send their children to parochial schools show that they value a Catholic education and trust the parish to educate their children in the faith. In 1920 there were 1.7 million parochial school students, 1930 there were 2.2 million, in 1940 there were 2.1 million, in 1945 there were 2 million, in 1950 there were 2.4 million, in 1955 there were 3.2 million, in 1960 there were 4.2 million.

    Infant baptisms: There were 710,000 in 1945, 943,000 in 1950, 1.1 million in 1955, 1.3 million in 1960.
    Adult baptisms: The number of adult baptisms is a true sign of the strength of any religious organization. And in the years before the Council the number of adult baptisms was skyrocketing: 38,232 in 1930, 73,677 in 1940, 84,908 in 1945, 119,173 in 1950, 137,310 in 1955, and 146,212 in 1960.

    These hard facts show a growing, vibrant, militant Church at the time the Second Vatican Council opened. Attempts to portray it otherwise are revisionist history by those who want to justify or explain away the revolution in the Church since the Council..."



    "...Since Cardinal Ratzinger made these remarks in 1984, the crisis in the Church has accelerated. In every area that is statistically verifiable — for example, the number of priests, seminarians, priestless parishes, nuns, Mass attendance, converts and annulments — the "process of decadence" is apparent.

    Priests: After skyrocketing from about 27,000 in 1930 to 58,000 in 1965, the number of priests in the United States dropped to 45,000 in 2002. And remember that in all of these statistics, the per capita decline has been even worse, because the number of Catholics has continued to increase since 1965. In 1965 there were 12.l85 priests for every 10,000 Catholics, in 2002 there were 7.l0 — a decline of 46 percent. By 2020, there will be about 31,000 priests — and only 15,000 will be under the age of 70. Right now there are more priests age 80 to 84 than there are age 30 to 34.

    Ordinations: In 1965 there were 1,575 ordinations to the priesthood, in 2002 there were 450, a decline of 350 percent. Taking into account ordinations, deaths and departures, in 1965 there was a net gain of 725 priests. In 1998, there was a net loss of 810.

    Priestless parishes: About 3 percent of parishes, 549, were without a resident priest in 1965. In 2002 there were 2,928 priestless parishes, about 15 percent of U.S. parishes. By 2020, a quarter of all parishes, 4,656, will have no priest.

    Seminarians: Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700 — a 90 percent decrease. Without any students, seminaries across the country have been sold or shuttered. There were 596 seminaries in 1965, and only 200 in 2000.

    Sisters: 180,000 sisters were the backbone of the Catholic education and health systems in 1965. In 2002, there were 75,000 sisters, with an average age of 68. By 2020, the number of sisters will drop to 40,000 — and of these, only 21,000 will be age 70 or under. In 1965, 104,000 sisters were teaching, while in 2002 there were only 8,200 teachers. From 1965 to 2002, per capita, the number of sisters fell from 39.43 per 10,000 to 11.56 — a decline of 71 percent.

    Brothers: The number of professed brothers decreased from about 12,000 in 1965 to 5,700 in 2002, with a further drop to 3,100 predicted for 2020.

    High Schools: Between 1965 and 2002 the number of diocesan high schools fell from 1,566 to 786. At the same time the number of students dropped from almost 700,000 to 386,000.

    Parochial Grade Schools: There were 10,503 parochial grade schools in 1965 and 6,623 in 2002. The number of students went from 4.5 million to 1.9 million.

    Sacramental life: In 1965 there were 1.3 million infant baptisms, in 2002 there were 1 million. (In 1965 there were 287 infant baptisms for every 10,000 Catholics, in 2002 there were 154 — a decline of 46 percent.) In 1965 there were 126,000 adult baptisms in 2002 there were 80,000. In 1965 there were 352,000 Catholic marriages, in 2002 there were 256,000. In 1968 there were 338 annulments, in 2002 there were 50,000.

    Mass attendance: A 1958 Gallup poll reported that 74 percent of Catholics went to Sunday Mass in 1958. A 1994 University of Notre Dame study found that the attendance rate was 26.6 percent. A more recent study by Fordham University professor James Lothian concluded that 65 percent of Catholics went to Sunday Mass in 1965, while the rate dropped to 25 percent in 2000...."

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: The Vatican II Renewal: Myth or Reality
    « Reply #1 on: May 02, 2024, 02:23:16 PM »
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  • Seminarians: As one would expect, as the number of priests increased, so did the number of seminarians — and it continued to increase substantially up to the Council. In 1920 there were 8,944 seminarians, in 1930 there were 16,300, in 1940 there were 17,087, in 1945 there were 21,523, in 1950 there were 25,622, in 1955 there were 32,394, in 1960 there were 39,896.
    A N.O. priest once told me that in the early '60's most of the men at his seminary joined because they thought Vat II would let them get married.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: The Vatican II Renewal: Myth or Reality
    « Reply #2 on: May 02, 2024, 02:43:23 PM »
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  • Sisters: The next book that is crying out to be written is a study of the destruction of the convents and women's religious orders since the Second Vatican Council. What a profound tragedy. And the wreckage has been so devastating, so thorough, that one can only wonder whether it had a diabolical aspect to it. But contrary to what some would have you believe, it wasn't like that before the Council. In 1945 there were 138,079 sisters, in 1950 there were 147,310, in 1955 there were 158,069, in 1960 there were 168,527.
    Below is the confession of "A contrite Catholic psychologist's disturbing testimony about his central role in the destruction of religious orders."

    The link provided in the thread below, though quite long, will give a profound understanding, along with the statistics in the OP,  to what was happening in the early 1960's and was coming direct from the gates of hell.  The article first appeared in Vol. 3, No. 1, January-February 1994 issue of "The Latin Mass."


    https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/a-confession-of-how-religious-orders-were-destroyed/
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: The Vatican II Renewal: Myth or Reality
    « Reply #3 on: May 02, 2024, 03:43:59 PM »
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  • Picture above of 1947, Marian Congress, Ottawa, Canada. 
    The bishop of Ottawa had a huge influence on the political landscape of the whole country. 
    As Fr. V. used to say: "Each time they close a seminary they open a penitentiary".  Look at society today! No past, no present, no future. Com munizm is coming. 
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    La mesure de l'amour, c'est d'aimer sans mesure.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: The Vatican II Renewal: Myth or Reality
    « Reply #4 on: May 02, 2024, 04:35:00 PM »
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  • Picture above of 1947, Marian Congress, Ottawa, Canada.
    The bishop of Ottawa had a huge influence on the political landscape of the whole country.
    As Fr. V. used to say: "Each time they close a seminary they open a penitentiary".  Look at society today! No past, no present, no future. Com munizm is coming.
    Pray+
    We have a past on a glorious foundation....it's just been temporarily buried.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Vatican II Renewal: Myth or Reality
    « Reply #5 on: May 02, 2024, 05:37:10 PM »
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  • A N.O. priest once told me that in the early '60's most of the men at his seminary joined because they thought Vat II would let them get married.

    Numbers put the lie to that statement, since there was only a relatively small uptick in seminarians between 1955 and 1960, the same increase as between 1950 and 1955.

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: The Vatican II Renewal: Myth or Reality
    « Reply #6 on: May 02, 2024, 07:18:51 PM »
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  • Numbers put the lie to that statement, since there was only a relatively small uptick in seminarians between 1955 and 1960, the same increase as between 1950 and 1955.
     What???  The numbers could have gone down and his statement was still what he experienced at his seminary at the time he was there. You weren't there.
    (and there were no numbers given for the early 60's...1960-65 as if that had any bearing on his statement)
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Vatican II Renewal: Myth or Reality
    « Reply #7 on: May 03, 2024, 05:09:18 AM »
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  • A N.O. priest once told me that in the early '60's most of the men at his seminary joined because they thought Vat II would let them get married.
    Numbers put the lie to that statement, since there was only a relatively small uptick in seminarians between 1955 and 1960, the same increase as between 1950 and 1955.
    I don't know but since V2 didn't happen over night, I would lean toward believing it.

    Fr. John O'Connor said his seminary was infiltrated with queers already in the mid 1950s and the bishop or superior knew it and did nothing about it. He said something like: "it got so bad that a good boy couldn't even get in."

    I know that as a young child in the late 60s I remember that all the familiar priests at our Church seemed to have disappeared and were replaced with new, young fem priests. I'm pretty sure that same thing happened all over.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Vatican II Renewal: Myth or Reality
    « Reply #8 on: May 03, 2024, 06:14:31 AM »
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  • What???  The numbers could have gone down and his statement was still what he experienced at his seminary at the time he was there. You weren't there.
    (and there were no numbers given for the early 60's...1960-65 as if that had any bearing on his statement)

    It's a bunch of nonsense that "most" of the men in the seminaries were there because they speculated that V2 would let them get married.  Trent had been an increase of 7,000 every 5 years between 1950 nd 1960, while there was about an 8,500 increase by 1965, so an extra 1,500 out of the total of about 49,000.  So there's no massive influx in the early 1960s.  There may have been some, but not "most", and I would wager that a good amount of the increase was actually from sodomites being freely allowed in whereas it had at least been officially frowned upon before then.

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: The Vatican II Renewal: Myth or Reality
    « Reply #9 on: May 03, 2024, 11:33:54 AM »
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  • A N.O. priest once told me that in the early '60's most of the men at his seminary joined because they thought Vat II would let them get married.
    It's a bunch of nonsense that "most" of the men in the seminaries were there because they speculated that V2 would let them get married.  
    You need new glasses.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]