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Author Topic: The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?  (Read 4508 times)

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Offline RonCal26

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The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
« on: January 14, 2012, 11:44:15 AM »
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    • I find this interesting...

    Bishop Michel Guerard de Laurier was a Dominican theologian who became a  sedevacantist.  After serving briefly as personal confessor to Pope Pius XII, Msgr. Guerard believed that the vacancy of the Apostolic See began with Paul VI and not John XXIII.  I remembered reading way back that he advised Archbishop Thuc that the vacancy did not begin with Roncalli but with Montini, just after the Dominican priest received episcopal consecration from the exiled prelate.

    It seems Msgr. Guerard justifiable to make such a statement because unlike most traditional bishops and priests, he was an experienced theologian who helped Pius XII define the dogma of the Assumption and worked with Popes John XXIII and Paul VI likewise.

    Though his opinion on Pope John XXIII is held by a few sedevacantists, the vacancy, in your opinion or point-of-view, began with what Vatican II pope?
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    Offline Telesphorus

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    The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
    « Reply #1 on: January 14, 2012, 11:48:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: RonCal26
    I find this interesting...

    Bishop Michel Guerard de Laurier was a Dominican theologian who became a  sedevacantist.  After serving briefly as personal confessor to Pope Pius XII, Msgr. Guerard believed that the vacancy of the Apostolic See began with Paul VI and not John XXIII.  I remembered reading way back that he advised Archbishop Thuc that the vacancy did not begin with Roncalli but with Montini, just after the Dominican priest received episcopal consecration from the exiled prelate.

    It seems Msgr. Guerard justifiable to make such a statement because unlike most traditional bishops and priests, he was an experienced theologian who helped Pius XII define the dogma of the Assumption and worked with Popes John XXIII and Paul VI likewise.

    Though his opinion on Pope John XXIII is held by a few sedevacantists, the vacancy, in your opinion or point-of-view, began with what Vatican II pope?


    I think it depends on whether or not you think Roncalli was merely an occult heretic or an open heretic.

    If he was an occult heretic, I suppose he could still be Pope.  I'm not going to be bound by Pacem in Terris.
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    Offline Gregory I

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    The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
    « Reply #2 on: January 14, 2012, 11:51:12 AM »
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    • It depends on what you believe the status of Roncalli's election was. Many people believe cardinal Gieuseppe Siri was validly elected Pope, and INVALIDLY stepped down due to unlawful threats. So Siri was still pope when John XXIII was elected. This makes all popes from this line Anti-popes.

    If we are going purely by manifest heresy, it would have to be montini. John XXIII I do not think has enough on him to say that he publically fell from office...though if he was a manifest heretic BEFORE his election it would surely be invalid also.

    Lots of dynamics.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
    « Reply #3 on: January 14, 2012, 01:47:02 PM »
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    •   There is no vacancy.

      Pope Michael I reigns from his mom's house in Kansas.

       Sedevacantist = no common sense.  
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    Offline Gregory I

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    The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
    « Reply #4 on: January 14, 2012, 02:16:20 PM »
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    • "Pope" Michael I elected by 4 people? This is all the Catholic church consists of? Ugh....
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
    « Reply #5 on: January 14, 2012, 04:01:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cupertino
    The Church says that a pope must become a manifest or explicit heretic before we can certainly say he is not a true pope. Paul VI did so when he gave the final approval to the "dogmatic constitutions" after all the bishops of the world met in solemn session to draw them up. The promise of infallibility means the Holy Ghost will prevent a true pope from accidentally doing that. Paul VI did it, therefore he is not a true pope.

    As for John XXIII, he was a doubtful pope. The principle is "papa dubius, papa nullus" (a doubtful pope is no pope).

    Uh....except that the dogmatic constitutions are not dogmatic.



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    Offline Roman Catholic

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    The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
    « Reply #6 on: January 14, 2012, 08:54:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cupertino
    The Church says that a pope must become a manifest or explicit heretic before we can certainly say he is not a true pope. Paul VI did so when he gave the final approval to the "dogmatic constitutions" after all the bishops of the world met in solemn session to draw them up. The promise of infallibility means the Holy Ghost will prevent a true pope from accidentally doing that. Paul VI did it, therefore he is not a true pope.

    As for John XXIII, he was a doubtful pope. The principle is "papa dubius, papa nullus" (a doubtful pope is no pope).





    In which case if one holds that, they should reject all that the doubtful pope introduced as novelties from a doubtful pope - therefore from no pope.
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    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
    « Reply #7 on: January 14, 2012, 09:01:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Seraphim
    Sedevacantist = no common sense.


    Novus Ordite = no common sense.

    THAT is what equals no common sense.
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    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
    « Reply #8 on: January 15, 2012, 01:42:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Telesphorus


    I'm not going to be bound by Pacem in Terris.



    "Peace on Earth" brought to us by the man whose pet project, the Robber Council 11 (V2) heralded an unprecedented rupture, and world-wide absence of peace in the Church.

    He and his cohorts threw open the Vatican windows to the spirit of the world and its master, Satan --- and then he produced a docuмent about his version of peace on earth.

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PqfcB4_suiwJ:www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php%3Fid%3D33%26catname%3D5+pacem+in+terris+Rev.+Curzio+Nitoglia&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

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    Offline RonCal26

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    The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
    « Reply #9 on: January 15, 2012, 02:03:54 AM »
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    • I like to add some information for you, Roman Catholic...

    According to inside sources, Pope John XXIII was a theologically ignorant man according to Fr. Malachi Martin who once worked with Roncalli and Cardinal Augustine Bea.  Due to his ignorance in theology, it was said that Cardinal Giovanni Batista Montini authored many of John XXIII's papal encyclicals including Pacem in Terris.

    Many trads forget the good things Pope John XXIII accomplished:

    1. Excommunicated Fidel Castro and reiterated Pius XII's stance against Communism.

    2.  Forbade women to serve at the altars of the churches.

    3.  Extended the study of Latin by 8 years since many Roman rite priests were deficient in the Church's mother tongue.  His Apostolic Constitution was not recognized by the Primate of the United States because the cardinal was a Modernist.

    4.  Instituted strict regulations in 1961 by banning men with same sex attractions join the religious or priestly life.

    5.  Restored the Latin Vulgate in the Breviary after Pius XII replaced it with his 1950s Latin Psalter.

    6.  Fired Fr. Annibale Bugnini for liturgical iconoclasm & Modernism.  Pope Paul VI reappointed Bugnini to create the New Mass.

    7.  Placed the Divine Mercy diary of Sister Faustina on the Index of Forbidden Books in 1959.

    8.  Added new prefaces in the traditional Latin Mass from the ancient Gallican Liturgy.

    9.  Along with President John F. Kennedy, he also secured the release of a Ukranian Catholic patriarch from Soviet custody.

    10.  Forbade Catholics to read the works of Fr. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.

    11.  Promulgated in 1960 the unpublished liturgical rubrics made by Pius XII.
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    Offline SJB

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    The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
    « Reply #10 on: January 15, 2012, 09:51:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cupertino
    RonCal, I won't comment on your list (at this point) other than to say that it is not the good things that determine a person, it is the negative. A person may be called a "thief", but besides that he may have many virtues, qualities and good works. Ecuмenism has reversed this thinking, now it's supposed to be - overlook the bad and see what we have in common!


    And many times we overlook the negative until we can no longer (with the common good in mind) do so.
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    Offline RonCal26

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    The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
    « Reply #11 on: January 15, 2012, 10:37:34 AM »
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    • There was an individual who gave me negative happy face on the question being asked her.  Such a sad face rating confounds me because I presented an event with a credible source thereby proving its veracity which was then followed by question if Pope John XXIII falls in the same position as Pope Paul VI.



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    Offline SJB

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    The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
    « Reply #12 on: January 15, 2012, 10:53:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: RonCal26
    I like to add some information for you, Roman Catholic...

    According to inside sources, Pope John XXIII was a theologically ignorant man according to Fr. Malachi Martin who once worked with Roncalli and Cardinal Augustine Bea.  Due to his ignorance in theology, it was said that Cardinal Giovanni Batista Montini authored many of John XXIII's papal encyclicals including Pacem in Terris.

    Many trads forget the good things Pope John XXIII accomplished:

    1. Excommunicated Fidel Castro and reiterated Pius XII's stance against Communism.

    2.  Forbade women to serve at the altars of the churches.

    3.  Extended the study of Latin by 8 years since many Roman rite priests were deficient in the Church's mother tongue.  His Apostolic Constitution was not recognized by the Primate of the United States because the cardinal was a Modernist.

    4.  Instituted strict regulations in 1961 by banning men with same sex attractions join the religious or priestly life.

    5.  Restored the Latin Vulgate in the Breviary after Pius XII replaced it with his 1950s Latin Psalter.

    6.  Fired Fr. Annibale Bugnini for liturgical iconoclasm & Modernism.  Pope Paul VI reappointed Bugnini to create the New Mass.

    7.  Placed the Divine Mercy diary of Sister Faustina on the Index of Forbidden Books in 1959.

    8.  Added new prefaces in the traditional Latin Mass from the ancient Gallican Liturgy.

    9.  Along with President John F. Kennedy, he also secured the release of a Ukranian Catholic patriarch from Soviet custody.

    10.  Forbade Catholics to read the works of Fr. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.

    11.  Promulgated in 1960 the unpublished liturgical rubrics made by Pius XII.


    For those who may have never seen the bolded above:

    Religiosorum institutio
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    Offline Simple Catholic

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    The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
    « Reply #13 on: January 15, 2012, 10:56:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Cupertino
    RonCal, I won't comment on your list (at this point) other than to say that it is not the good things that determine a person, it is the negative. A person may be called a "thief", but besides that he may have many virtues, qualities and good works. Ecuмenism has reversed this thinking, now it's supposed to be - overlook the bad and see what we have in common!


    And many times we overlook the negative until we can no longer (with the common good in mind) do so.


    Hmmm...are you referring to anyone in particular, or is this just a general observation?

    It does happen that a 'negative' can be limited to one's point of view which could be shared by others.   It can be a subjective conclusion.
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    Offline Gregory I

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    The Vacancy began with what Vatican II pope?
    « Reply #14 on: January 15, 2012, 11:13:19 AM »
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    • We have had a lot of new people lately, huh?
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