Author Topic: The Upcoming Burke-Bergoglio Battle over the Knights of Malta (Read 5953 times)

Geremia · « **on:** December 24, 2016, 04:34:39 PM »

The recent Rorate Cæli post[/url] confirms that Cdl. Burke concurred with the council's dismissal of Albrecht von Boesinger:

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It is no secret that Pope Francis’s removal of Raymond Leo Cardinal Burke from the tribunal of the Apostolic Signature and his installation as “Patron” of the Knights of Malta was intended to consign the trad-friendly Ur-canonist to an ecclesiastical backwater. No “promoveatur,” just “amoveatur,” and don’t let the door slam on your cappa magna on your way out.

How much trouble, Bergoglio and his entourage probably figured, could Burke possibly cause heading a charitable organization that now specializes in disaster relief?

Well plenty, it seems. Rorate readers are well aware of the cardinal’s strenuous efforts to defend the traditional Catholic teachings on marriage and the reception of the sacraments, especially in the affair of the “dubia,” which has yet to play out completely.

Apart from this, though, readers should be ready to watch how Francis’ plan to neutralize the cardinal is about to blow up in his face.

On Tuesday, December 22, the Knights of Malta’s council, with the concurrence of Cardinal Burke, dismissed the Order’s Grand Chancellor (and as Health superior, responsible for the Malteser charity activities), Albrecht von Boesinger, in connection with the distribution of condoms under the aegis of the Order in Burma.

One can see why this would cause agitation in the buffet line at the Casa S. Marta. If every case of divorce, remarriage and reception of the sacraments is somehow “unique” and requires “accompaniment,” if morality is not “black and white,” and if nothing is now “malum in se,” why fire a religious who adopts a “merciful” approach towards condoms?

Pope Bergoglio immediately established a five-man Vatican commission to investigate whether the Order’s council had acted correctly with regard to Boesinger’s dismissal – the hidden goal of the inquiry being, of course, to discredit or remove Burke.

The method is a variant on the one Francis employed in order to destroy the traditionally-oriented Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate.

But the Sovereign Order of Malta cannot be so easily picked off. It is an ancient religious order whose members profess solemn vows, its government is regulated by a thicket of previous papal legislation and it is, to boot, a sovereign entity.

The Order’s response[/url] to Pope Bergoglio’s appointment of the five-man commission was curt and to the point:

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“The Grand Magistry of the Sovereign Order of Malta has learnt of the decision made by the Holy See to appoint a group of five persons to shed light on the replacement of the former Grand Chancellor.

“The replacement of the former Grand Chancellor is an act of internal governmental administration of the Sovereign Order of Malta and consequently falls solely within its competence.”
"Drop dead," in other words. None of your business.

You can be sure that before the council of the Order issued this response, His Eminence Cardinal Burke did his canonical homework.

So if Francis decides to pursue his vendetta, he will have a real battle on his hands with a formidable, intelligent and articulate opponent.

And we can savor the irony of how Francis, as a result of his attempt to neutralize Burke, will have brought all this mischief down upon himself: Convertetur dolor ejus in caput ejus, et in verticem ipsius iniquitas ejus descendet!

Geremia · « **Reply #1 on:** December 24, 2016, 04:56:14 PM »

Another:

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Has the Pope appointed an external commissioner to the Order of Malta? Pope Francis undeniably likes the strategy of appointing external commissioners as he has already adopted this draconian measure against two religious communities considered too “traditional”: the Franciscans of the Immaculate and the religious of the Incarnate Word. Further, it is not by chance that the announcement of a commission to “gather suitable elements to inform the Holy See thoroughly and swiftly with regard to the matter which has recently involved the Grand Chancellor of the Order of Malta, Mr. Albrecht Freiherr von Boeselager”, was given by the Vatican Press Office on December 22^nd, precisely while Pope Bergoglio was transforming his traditional Christmas greetings to the Curia into a bitter chiding against those who are resistant to his project of radical change in the Church, with implicit reference to Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke, Patron of the Order of Malta. However, in this case, the appointing of an external commissioner is not at all possible.

As Don Fabrizio Turriziani Colonna explains in a docuмented study dedicated to the Sovereignty and independence of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (Libreria Editrice Vaticana 2006), the Order of Malta and the Holy See are placed one in front of the other as subjects of International Law and thus are in a position of reciprocal independence. The Order of Malta, has in fact a twofold juridical character; at the level of Canon Law, it is subordinate to the Holy See, but at the level of International Law it is guaranteed independence from it. The fact that the Order of Malta maintains diplomatic relations with 94 states and has an ambassador to the Holy See, confirms that, in a certain sphere, their relations are as equals. The Sovereign Military Order of Malta, is, in short, a sovereign State, even if it has no territory, jealous of its autonomy and privileges. Throughout nine centuries of history, the Knights of Malta have been covered in glory, shedding their blood for the Church, but there have been no want of conflicts between them and the Holy See.

The last one, narrated by Roger Peyrefitte (Chevaliers de Malte, Flammarion, Paris 1957), was after the Second World War, when the Order was able to thwart an attempt to fuse them with the Knights of the Holy Sepulchre. This struggle came to a halt in 1953 with the sentence by a Tribunal of cardinals which recognized the sovereignty of the Order of Malta, but nonetheless affirming its dependence on the Holy See as far as concerned the religious life of the knights. The Order of Malta accepted the sentence, conditioning it on some points: 1) the recognition of the rights due to it as subject of international law; 2) the limitation of religious independence of the Order only to professed knights and Chaplains; 3) the exclusion of subjection to the Vatican Secretary of State.

The Holy See’s competence does not involve then the internal and international governing of the Order, but limits itself to the strictly religious sphere. At this point one could imagine that the Pope, having identified deviations of a moral and doctrinal order among the knights, had thought of intervening to straighten out the situation. What happened instead? It was brought to light that Albrecht von Boeselager, during his time as Grand Hospitaller of the Order, had abused his power. promoting the distribution of tens of thousands of condoms and contraceptives, also abortifacients, (so the reports related to the United Nations’ programme against HIV/AIDS in Myanmar docuмent), [so] the Grand Master Matthew Festing intervened to bring an end to the scandal and asked Boeselager to resign, appealing to the vow of obedience made to him.

The Grand Chancellor, strong in his friendship with the Secretary of State, Pietro Parolin and of his brother George’s recent appointment to the board of the IOR (Institute for the Works of Religion -the Vatican Bank) rejected the request arrogantly, laying claim to his "liberal" Catholic stance. The creation on the part of the Secretary of State of an investigative group of five members, all of them more or less connected to Boeselager, constitutes a serious case of interference in the governing of the Order. The Holy See should limit itself to watching over the religious life through its Cardinal Patron, Cardinal Burke, appointed by Pope Francis himself. The Pope has every right to be informed with regard to the Order’s internal affairs, but it is irregular for this to take place through a commission which bypasses the pontifical representative, unless there is the desire to accuse the latter.

A Cardinal, however, can be judged only by his peers and not by Vatican bureaucrats. Equally improper is entrusting a Vatican Commission with the judgement of matters regarding not the religious life, but the governing of the Order, accusing, in this case, the Grand Master. The latter has done well to reject the bogus actions by the commission. Unfortunately not only is the procedure bogus, but the judgment in particular coming from the Vatican Authorities regarding it. Whoever favours contraception and abortion, disdaining the Church’s Magisterium, and violates their own vows, merits rehabilitation nowadays. Whoever defends the Church’s teachings and the moral integrity of the institutions he belongs to, is, on the other hand, accused of “malevolent resistance” to the Holy Father and ends up in the dock. Let us hope that the Knights react. The sovereignty of the Order of Malta is at stake as well as its uninterrupted tradition in defense of the faith and Catholic morality.

Incredulous · « **Reply #2 on:** December 28, 2016, 07:37:06 PM »

Bump... this story is incredible!

Bergy is taking-on the governance of the "Knights of Malta" to try and undo Cardinal Burke.

Geremia · « **Reply #3 on:** December 28, 2016, 08:45:47 PM »

Quote from: Incredulous

Bump... this story is incredible!

I thought the part about "The Sovereign Military Order of Malta" being "a sovereign State, even if it has no territory" and that "the Order of Malta and the Holy See are placed one in front of the other as subjects of International Law and thus are in a position of reciprocal independence" is interesting. It shows that if there is a formal schism, the material property of the orthodox Catholics might go with the Sovereign Military Order (really: State) of Malta and that of the Modernists with the Vatican City State. All schisms (from domestic divorces to the Protestant revolt) involve an reappropriation (or expropriation, stealing) of property. Cdl. Burke is probably thinking about the practical details of this schism of Modernist Rome.

mw2016 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 28, 2016, 09:21:18 PM »

Bergoglio did this because he knows Burke is about to begin open war by beginning the official reprimand process after the Epiphany.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/dubia-cardinal-anyone-who-opens-communion-to-adulterers-is-a-heretic-and-pr

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In a new interview with the German newspaper Der Spiegel, one of the four Cardinals of the dubia has said, “Whoever thinks that persistent adultery and the reception of Holy Communion are compatible is a heretic and promotes schism.”

Cardinal Walter Brandmuller made the remark while speaking with Der Spiegel reporter Walter Mayr about the dubia...

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/exclusive-cardinal-burke-suggests-timeline-for-formal-correction-of-pope-fr

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December 19, 2016 (LifeSiteNews) – In an exclusive interview with LifeSiteNews, Cardinal Raymond Burke has given an indication of the possible timeline of a “formal correction” of Pope Francis should the Pope not respond to the five dubia seeking clarity on Amoris Laetitia, presented to the Pope by four Cardinals, including Cardinal Burke.

When the Pope did not issue a response after two months, the cardinals released the dubia publicly. It was after this that Cardinal Burke disclosed that a formal act of correction would be necessary, if the Pope refused to clarify the meaning of his exhortation.

While such an act of formal correction is something rare in the life of the Church, it is not without precedent.

Pope John XXII in the 14th century was publicly challenged by cardinals, bishops, and lay theologians after denying the doctrine that the souls of the just are admitted to the beatific vision after death, teaching instead that heaven is delayed until the general resurrection at the end of time. Pope John eventually recanted his position, due in part to a joint letter from theologians from the University of Paris that professed total obedience to the pope while making it clear to him that his teaching contradicted the Catholic faith.

Burke called the procedure of correcting the error of a pontiff a “way of safeguarding that office and its exercise.”

“It’s carried out with the absolute respect for the office of the Successor of Saint Peter,” he said.

“Now of course we are in the last days, days of strong grace, before the Solemnity of the Nativity of Our Lord, and then we have the Octave of the Solemnity and the celebrations at the beginning of the New Year - the whole mystery of Our Lord’s Birth and His Epiphany - so it would probably take place sometime after that.”

Geremia · « **Reply #5 on:** January 13, 2017, 12:25:17 PM »

Quote from: 2017-01-11

Knights say investigation is aimed at limiting order's sovereignty

The Knights of Malta, the ancient Catholic lay order, is refusing to cooperate with a Vatican investigation into the sacking of a top official over a condom scandal — and is warning its members to toe the line if they choose to speak with investigators.

In a statement released on Tuesday, the Knights called the investigation legally “irrelevant” and aimed at limiting its sovereignty. It insisted that the ousting of its grand chancellor, Albrecht von Boeselager, was an act of internal governance that in no way involves religious superiors.

The order told its members that if they speak with Vatican-appointed investigators, they cannot contradict the decision of the order’s leadership to replace Boeselager.

Boeselager was suspended on December 8 after he refused a demand by the top Knight, Fra’ Matthew Festing, to resign over revelations that the order’s charity branch distributed tens of thousands of condoms in Burma under his watch.

Church teaching forbids the use of artificial contraception; Boeselager has said he didn’t know about the condom distribution programme and eventually stopped it when he learned of it.

Boeselager has said Fra’ Matthew — in the presence of Cardinal Raymond Burke — indicated that the Holy See wanted him to quit. But the Vatican’s secretary of state, Cardinal Pietro Parolin, has since said the Pope wanted no such thing.

As a second-class knight, Boeselager promised obedience to his superior. But Boeselager has said Church law doesn’t require him to obey an act that violates the Knights’ own constitution. He maintains that Fra’ Matthew committed a series of legal and procedural errors in demanding his resignation that violated the order’s constitution.

Fra’ Matthew and Cardinal Burke’s allies have justified the ousting by arguing that Boeselager’s refusal to obey Fra’ Matthew was “disgraceful” and that the condom scandal represented an irredeemable breach.

The pro-life Lepanto Institute, for example, compiled a detailed dossier of United Nation’s reports that showed the order’s Malteser International group distributed thousands of condoms through anti-HIV and family planning programmes.

Members sympathetic to Boeselager, meanwhile, have denounced what they consider a coup and reminded Fra’ Matthew that he, too, took a vow of obedience: to the Pope. They welcome the Vatican’s investigation, but canon lawyers have cautioned that the sovereign nature of the Knights of Malta makes Vatican intervention problematic.

The Order of Malta has many trappings of a sovereign state. It issues its own stamps, passports and license plates and holds diplomatic relations with 106 states, the Holy See included.

But in its December 22 announcement of its investigation, the Vatican cited its status as a “lay religious order” that is at the service to “the faith and the Holy Father.”

The knights trace their history to the 11th century with the establishment of an infirmary in Jerusalem that cared for pilgrims of all faiths. It now counts 13,500 members and 100,000 staff and volunteers who provide health care in hospitals and clinics around the world.

Geremia · « **Reply #6 on:** January 24, 2017, 08:17:33 PM »

Quote from: Reuters

Knights of Malta head resigns after dispute with Vatican

The head of the Knights of Malta, who has been locked in a bitter dispute with the Vatican, has resigned, a spokesperson for the Rome-based Catholic chivalric and charity institution said on Wednesday.

The spokesperson said Grand Master Matthew Festing, 67, had resigned after Pope Francis asked him to step down at a meeting on Tuesday. Grand masters of the institution, which was founded in the 11th century, usually keep their positions for life.

"The pope asked him to resign and he agreed," the spokesperson said, adding that the next step was a formality in which the group's Sovereign Council would have to sign off on the highly unusual resignation. The order would be run by its number two, or grand commander, until a new head is elected.

Festing and the Vatican have been locked in a bitter dispute since one of the order's top knights, Grand Chancellor Albrecht Freiherr von Boeselager, was sacked in December in the chivalric equivalent of a boardroom showdown - ostensibly because he allowed the use of condoms in a medical project for the poor.

Von Boeselager appealed to the pope, who appointed a five-member commission to look into the unusual circuмstances of the sacking, but Festing refused to cooperate and called the commission illegitimate.

Festing's resignation was the latest twist in a battle of wills between the heads of two of the world's oldest institutions.

Festing, a Briton, had denounced the papal commission as intervention in the order's sovereign affairs, accused members having a conflict of interest and defiantly set up his own internal commission.

The Vatican, in turn, rejected what it said was an attempt to discredit members of the commission and ordered the leaders of the institution to cooperate with the inquiry. The papal commission was due to deliver its findings to the pope at the end of the month.

The all-male top leaders of the Knights of Malta are not clerics, but they take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience to the pope. The institution has 13,500 members, 25,000 employees and 80,000 volunteers worldwide.

The order, formed in the 11th century to provide protection and medical care for pilgrims to the Holy Land, has the status of a sovereign entity. It maintains diplomatic relations with over 100 states and the European Union and permanent observer status at the United Nations.

When Festing fired von Boeselager, he accused the German of hiding the fact that he allowed the use of condoms when he ran Malteser International, the order's humanitarian aid agency.

Von Boeselager and his supporters say the condom issue was an excuse by Festing and Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke, an arch-conservative who has accused the pope of being too liberal, to increase their power.

The church does not allow the use of condoms as a means of birth control and says abstinence and monogamy in heterosɛҳuąƖ marriage is the best way to stop the spread of AIDS.

Von Boeselager said he closed two projects in the developing world when he discovered condoms were being distributed but kept a third running for a while because closing it would have abruptly ended all basic medical services to poor people.

Francis has said he wants the 1.2 billion-member church to avoid so-called "culture wars" over moral teachings and show mercy to those who cannot live by all its rules, especially the poor.

(Reporting by Philip Pullella, editing by G Crosse and Cynthia Oserman)

Too bad Festing was servilely obedient to a heretic. Oremus pro eum.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #7 on:** January 25, 2017, 01:31:37 AM »

Francis is showing himself to be an enemy of Tradition.

He is buddy-buddy with every heretic, schismatic and apostate, as well as atheists. They're all his friends.

But Traditional Catholics are his foes. So he's at war with us.

He hates Tradition so he does not practice it. And we are his enemy.

He bares his teeth at us alone. Everyone else gets a free pass.

poche · « **Reply #8 on:** January 29, 2017, 12:59:34 AM »

On the afternoon of Jan. 24, a black BMW pulled out of a 16th century palace in Rome, crossed the Tiber River and headed for the Vatican, a short trip to end a brazen challenge to the authority of Pope Francis.

Inside the car was 67-year-old Englishman Matthew Festing, the head of an ancient Catholic order of knights which is now a worldwide charity with a unique diplomatic status.

Festing was about to resign, the first leader in several centuries of the Order of Malta, which was founded in 1048 to provide medical aid for pilgrims in the Holy Land, to step down instead of ruling for life.

The move was aimed at ending a highly-public spat between Festing and the reformist pope over the running of the chivalric institution. The weeks-long conflict had become one of the biggest internal challenges yet to Francis' efforts to modernize the 1.2 billion member Roman Catholic Church.

At issue was the Order's reaction to the discovery that condoms had been distributed by one of its aid projects in Myanmar. The Order had fired its Grand Chancellor, Albrecht Freiherr von Boeselager, whom it held responsible for the condom distribution. Von Boeselager declined to comment for this article.

Though condom use goes against Catholic teaching, the Vatican had ordered an investigation into the firing of von Boeselager. It subsequently publicly castigated Festing, who had refused to cooperate with the investigation.

Backing down, Festing -- a former Sotheby's art auctioneer -- gave a hand-written resignation letter to Francis in the pope's private residence, according to a senior Vatican source. Festing, who has the title of prince, declined an interview request.

Instead of quelling the conflict, however, Festing's resignation was followed by yet another challenge to Francis' authority -- led by vocal pope critic American Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke, according to Vatican and Knights sources.

In particular: Burke tried to convince Festing to withdraw his resignation and keep fighting the pope, these sources say. On Saturday, the Knight's Sovereign Council accepted Festing's resignation and re-instated von Boselager, a clear defeat for Burke.

Burke declined to comment for this article.

The tussle suggested Francis is still battling to consolidate his power over the Church almost four years into his tenure, Vatican insiders say.

Beyond a fight over condoms, the clash pointed to lingering divisions between the Church's conservatives and more progressive factions who support the pope's reformist agenda, they add.

Francis is trying to make the Church less dogmatic and more welcoming to whose who have felt excluded, such as ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs and the divorced.

"While this whole saga was an internal matter that probably should have stayed that way, it metamorphosed into a clash that showed the divide between conservatives and progressives," said Andrea Tornielli, author of several books on Pope Francis.

The Vatican declined to comment on the clash and on Pope Francis' efforts to consolidate his power.

It directed Reuters to two public statements. One, on Dec. 22, relates to the Vatican order to investigate the firing of von Boeselager. The second, on Jan. 17, followed a pledge by Festing on the Knights' web page not to cooperate with the Vatican. It decried his resistance and ordered members of the order to cooperate.

GERMAN ARISTOCRAT

The all-male top leaders of the Knights of Malta are not clerics, but they take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience to the pope. [L5N1FH58O]

A German aristocrat whose father participated in a failed plot to kill Hitler in World War Two, von Boeselager was fired by Festing in December, and accused of having allowed the use of condoms while he was head of the Knights' global humanitarian projects.

Festing fired him in Burke's presence, arguing that the German had hidden the condom use from the order's leaders when he was named Grand Chancellor, according to Knights and Vatican sources.

Immediately, the firing set off the conflict between the Knights' hierarchy and the Vatican.

Von Boeselager , a devout Catholic, said in a statement on Dec. 23 that he was fully behind Church teachings. He closed two projects in the developing world when he discovered condoms were being distributed but kept a third running in Myanmar for a while because closing it would have abruptly ended all basic medical services to poor people.

The Church does not allow condoms as a means of birth control and says abstinence and monogamy in heterosɛҳuąƖ marriage is the best way to stop the spread of AIDS.

In the same statement, von Boeselager said Festing and Burke told him the Vatican wanted him to resign and that there would be "severe consequences" for the Order if he did not.

The Vatican denied, in a letter from its secretary of state to the Order and seen by Reuters, that it had mandated the resignation, saying it had told the Knights the pope wanted a solution through dialogue.

The German said his sacking was against the Knights' constitution and appealed to the pope, who ordered the investigation.

Festing refused to cooperate, issuing a series of increasingly strident public statements. In one, he called the papal commission that was investigating the firing "legally irrelevant".

In a Jan. 14 confidential letter to the top echelons of the order and seen by Reuters, Festing wrote: "In refusing to acknowledge this group of people's jurisdiction, I am trying to protect the order's sovereignty".

The institution has the status of a sovereign entity, maintaining diplomatic relations with over 100 states and the European Union and permanent observer status at the United Nations.

The pope was irritated by Festing's defiant stand, a senior Vatican source said, and the Vatican shot back with a public statement ordering the Knights to obey.

After that public order, Festing changed his tune and resigned in the pope's residence a week later.

Festing's resignation came as a shock for many inside the Knights: some of them told Reuters it was akin to the resignation of Pope Benedict in 2013.

Four sources said that for many others in the order, it came as a relief. They feared the clash was damaging the image of the institution whose 13,000 members, 80,000 volunteers and 20,000 paid medical staff help the neediest around the world.

The day after Festing handed his resignation to the pope, Cardinal Burke drove to the order's headquarters from his apartment near the Vatican and sought to persuade Festing to withdraw his resignation, a source from the Vatican and one from the Knights said.

Burke declined to comment on his meeting with Festing.

Burke has long been leading challenges against the pope. Pope Francis demoted him from a top Vatican job in 2014 with no official explanation and assigned him to be the "patron" of the Order of Malta.

Such "patron" positions are usually given to older cardinals after they retire at 75. Burke was only 66 then and the demotion was widely seen as a sign of the pope's irritation with the cardinal's constant sniping over Francis’ reforms.

In particular, Burke has contested moves by the pope that would allow Catholics who have divorced and re-married outside the Church without an annulment to return to the sacrament of communion. Burke declined to comment on his demotion.

Since the demotion, Burke has become even more of a rallying point for conservatives, flying around the world to give lectures to conservative groups and often giving interviews criticizing the pope's decisions.

In November, he led a rare public challenge to the pope with three other cardinals who accused the pontiff of sowing confusion on important moral issues such as that of communion for the divorced.

Burke later said in an interview that if the pope did not respond to their letter, the cardinals might need to "correct" the pope themselves for the good of the Church.

The Vatican did not comment on the uprising at the time but many of the pope's supporters publicly criticized the four cardinals.

The pope will now appoint a "pontifical delegate" to help run the order, at least until elections can be held for a new Grand Master.

In a personal letter to the Sovereign Council on Jan. 27 and seen by Reuters, Francis made clear that the Vatican did not want to interfere with the Order's sovereignty but said his delegate would seek to "renew the spirituality of the Order, specifically of those members who take vows."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/knights-malta-vatican-feud-tale-chivalry-sovereignty-193635200.html

poche · « **Reply #9 on:** January 30, 2017, 02:03:49 AM »

The all-male top leaders of the Knights of Malta are not clerics, but they take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience to the pope.

If one of their vows is obedience to the Pope then they should not have been resisting the Vatican inquiries.

poche · « **Reply #10 on:** January 30, 2017, 02:07:17 AM »

Von Boeselager , a devout Catholic, said in a statement on Dec. 23 that he was fully behind Church teachings. He closed two projects in the developing world when he discovered condoms were being distributed but kept a third running in Myanmar for a while because closing it would have abruptly ended all basic medical services to poor people.

I think this was a question of prudence. I can see that if closing the only medical facility would end the only medical care in a developing country then I think he may have had a point, at least for a delay while figuring out a way to disrupt the condom distribution.

Geremia · « **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2017, 09:10:20 AM »

Quote from: poche

The all-male top leaders of the Knights of Malta are not clerics, but they take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience to the pope.

If one of their vows is obedience to the Pope then they should not have been resisting the Vatican inquiries.

What if the "inquiries" involved pressuring them to continue condom distribution? Then certainly they could obey God over men.

Geremia · « **Reply #12 on:** January 30, 2017, 09:12:32 AM »

Quote from: poche

kept a third running in Myanmar for a while because closing it would have abruptly ended all basic medical services to poor people.

Wouldn't've been more prudent for him to end that program, too? Contraception is more serious than bodily disease; contraception is the death of the soul.

poche · « **Reply #13 on:** January 30, 2017, 11:29:37 PM »

Quote from: Geremia

Quote from: poche
kept a third running in Myanmar for a while because closing it would have abruptly ended all basic medical services to poor people.
Wouldn't've been more prudent for him to end that program, too? Contraception is more serious than bodily disease; contraception is the death of the soul.

Modifying it to exclude the giving out of contraceptives would have been better.

poche · « **Reply #14 on:** January 30, 2017, 11:32:36 PM »

Quote from: Geremia

Quote from: poche
The all-male top leaders of the Knights of Malta are not clerics, but they take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience to the pope.

If one of their vows is obedience to the Pope then they should not have been resisting the Vatican inquiries.
What if the "inquiries" involved pressuring them to continue condom distribution? Then certainly they could obey God over men.

I agree we should obey the law of God when it conflicts with the law of men. However if they take a promise of obedience to the Holy Father then when the Vatican at a minimum starts to ask questions about what is going on the attitude of defiance is innapropriate.