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Author Topic: The True and the False Infallibility of the Popes  (Read 229 times)

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The True and the False Infallibility of the Popes
« on: Yesterday at 05:59:26 PM »
There is a book I came across within the last year or so, entitled "The True and the False Infallibility of the Popes", by Bishop Joseph Fessler, 1875. He was the Secretary General of the Vatican Council (1870), and wrote this short work in defence of the dogma recently defined by Pope Pius IX. What spurred Bishop Fessler to write this was the errors about papal infallibility being spread by Bishop Schulte.

I have never heard of any traditional catholic clergy knowing of this book, or having read it. I have observed that sede's tend to exaggerate the Pope's infallibility, and some SSPX people do not understand or accept it as they should. Perhaps if all the traditional catholic clergy read and discussed it, they would at least become closer to being on the same page. Pun intended.

The Pope highly praised the author's work, as being an authentic interpretation of the dogma defining papal infallibility, and one may read it at the beginning of the book. 

Online: https://archive.org/details/a628790300fessuoft/page/n1/mode/2up
Hard copy: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0DYVR7RNJ/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0DYVR7RNJ&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
Please share this book as much as you are able, it is important to read in its entirety, however these particular passages are quite intriguing, as it is relevant to the current crisis.

P. 74:

Dr. Schulte proceeds with another Bull of Pope Paul IV., issued in the year 1559 (cuм Ex Apostolatus) which is rightly described in the collection of Papal Bulls under the title of 'Renewal of previous censures and punishments against heretics and schismatics, with the addition of further penalties.' Why, the very title, which gives a true account of its contents, is of itself alone enough to show every one who reads it, that this Papal delivery is not a definition de fide and cannot, therefore, be an utterance ex cathedrâ.


P: 75-76:

And indeed it is 'very remarkable,' nay quite 'inconceivable,' that Dr. Schulte, who is a canonist, should have so utterly misunderstood the introduction to this Bull, and the sense of a passage further on in it, § 6. I am conscious I am giving utterance to a grave reproof, and I must entreat my reader's patience while I prove it. Dr. Schulte finds it ' very remarkable ;' he says that 'the election of a heretic as Pope is valueless from the first, and is here declared to be null and void. That is, he says, 'The Pope and Cardinals assume the possibility of an infallible Pope being found deviating from the faith !'

To set this supposed case in its proper light the following remarks may be useful. Pope Paul lV, no doubt, supposes the case possible (however improbable it might be) that a man who clings to an heretical doctrine might be chosen Pope, and also that after he has mounted the Papal throne, he might still hold heretical doctrine, or, even it may be, express it in his intercourse with others; not, however, that he would teach the whole Church this heretical doctrine in an utterance of his supreme teaching office (ex cathedrâ). From making such an utterance God Himself, through His special assistance, preserves the Pope and the Church. If, then, as has been suggested, a man were elected Pope who might uphold heretical doctrine (not supposing that he could declare such a doctrine to the whole Church formally as Catholic doctrine de fide, or prescribe it to be held as such), then we should have the case before us for which Pope Paul IV, in the above-named Bull, § 6, provides, by quashing the election of such a man to the Papacy, and declaring it 'null and void.' 


This is one of the cases which theologians mean when they say the Pope (homo privatus) as a private individual, may err in a matter of faith; that is, when he is considered simply as a man, with merely his own human conception of a doctrine of the faith. As Pope, as supreme teacher of the Catholic Church, he cannot err, when, by virtue of the assistance of God, promised and vouchsafed to him, he solemnly defines a truth revealed by God, and prescribes it to be held by the Universal Church. It is clear that there are in the one person of the Pope two different active powers: first, the ordinary power of thinking and viewing things; and, secondly, the solemn defining power for the whole Church. 

I might illustrate this point by the parallel case of a judge who has to decide upon a suit. In his own private life he may, perhaps, hold and express his opinion, and that on very various occasions, but in the suit nothing passes for law but his solemn judicial utterance, which, however, is by no means infallible. The example, however, will suffice to show that a man who is invested with an official position can be readily conceived as thinking and speaking as a man, on the one hand, and, on the other hand, as an official personage in his forensic utterances and acts.

After making this distinction, plain enough as I conceive it to be, the introductory words of this Bull will be quite intelligible; why, that is, the Pope expresses his conviction how perilous it would be if, even in his private life, a Pope were to admit an error in doctrine, and what sad confusion would arise if the said Pope, as a private individual, were to be guilty of heresy, and yet had to put into force penalties against heretics, he as Pope having no judge higher than himself.



Thoughts?




Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The True and the False Infallibility of the Popes
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 07:46:28 PM »
I've been saying this for years, that both extremes err by exaggeration, with R&R being the worse error by far.  Nevertheless, the extremes on both sides are those who have created this dynamic of polarization among Traditional Catholics.  Your citations, however, are not relevant to the debate.

R&R reduce the protection of the Holy Ghost over the papacy to those once- or twice- per century solemn definitions, and claim that the rest is up for grabs, fair game, anybody's guess ... and hold that that 99.99% of the non-(strictly-)infallible Magisterium could turn to complete garbage that destroys souls.

SV counter by ... exaggerating the scope of infallibility to the point that they hold that every time a Pope passes wind, he's infallible.  While they constantly pound the drums on having to accept theological consensus, they are unable to produce a single actual Catholic theologian after Vatican I and before Vatican II who held such an absurdly broad definition of papal infallibility.  HINT: that's because there were exactly NONE who held their exaggerated view of papal infallibility.

You'll find the proper Catholic attitude clearly expounded upon by Msgr. Fenton in his treatise on the infallibility of papal encyclicals, and the Dimond Brothers, ironically, are among the very very few who hold that balanced view.

So, the problem is that both sides miss the forest of indefectibility for the trees of infallibility.  Sorry, R&R, but we're not talking about a mistake in some expository obiter dictum in an Encyclical Letter here, but we're talking about a body of putative Magisterium that has been total garbage for 60+ years, and has bee infecting souls with error and destroying souls.  We've clearly crossed the line from simple infallibility into R&R positing a defection of the Church.  Not only do they hold that the Papal Magisterium has turned to garbage, but the Church's Public Worship also offends God and harms souls, and the Conciliar catalog of saints, it's an utter joke and abomination.  That's to attribute no less a defection to the Church than the Old Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and even the Protestants did.  in fact, the Old Catholics were originally more orthodox than Modern R&R, who are nothing but thinly veiled Old Catholic heretics who like the smells of incense and the sound of bells and Gregorian chant.  Those who hold this are heretics and cannot be said to hold the Catholic faith.

Unfortunately, however, many sedevacantists, those especially of the dogmatic variety, rather than the more moderate "opinionist" types ... overreacted to this grave error by falsely joining the battle on R&R's terms, the definition of strict infallibiility, and they are unable to concede that even the slightest papal teaching could contain error, since then the R&R could just claim that what's happened is just a difference of degree, not of kind.  So, could an Encyclical or even non-dogmatic Conciliar docuмent contains an error, even one, where the text was explanatory and not intending to define?  If you allow that, then ... what about two, or three, or twenty-five, or "5%-Fellay"?  So the SVs are unable to concede even the shadow of error in any papal Magisterium since they believe that by conceding that they've lost the battle.

So these two camps polarize the entire Traditional movement between R&R and SV.  But if R&R adopted the actual position of +Lefebvre, which was not their warped Old Catholicism, but was more "Doubt & Resist", or D&R, NOT R&R (Father Cekada did a disservice by coining that term, and served the polarization) ... and if the dogmatic SVs would admit that not everything a Pope ever teaches is infallible, while maintaining that we've crossed the line into a difference of kind, where this Conciliar Church simply reprsents something substantially different from the pre-V2 Church and that the (actual) R&R posit a defection of the Church, there could be some hope that Traditional Catholics would at least recognize one another as Catholic, even if they entertained different opinions, such as, say the Thomists and Molinists disagree on.


Re: The True and the False Infallibility of the Popes
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 10:20:47 PM »
I've been saying this for years, that both extremes err by exaggeration, with R&R being the worse error by far.  Nevertheless, the extremes on both sides are those who have created this dynamic of polarization among Traditional Catholics.  Your citations, however, are not relevant to the debate.

R&R reduce the protection of the Holy Ghost over the papacy to those once- or twice- per century solemn definitions, and claim that the rest is up for grabs, fair game, anybody's guess ... and hold that that 99.99% of the non-(strictly-)infallible Magisterium could turn to complete garbage that destroys souls.

SV counter by ... exaggerating the scope of infallibility to the point that they hold that every time a Pope passes wind, he's infallible.  While they constantly pound the drums on having to accept theological consensus, they are unable to produce a single actual Catholic theologian after Vatican I and before Vatican II who held such an absurdly broad definition of papal infallibility.  HINT: that's because there were exactly NONE who held their exaggerated view of papal infallibility.

You'll find the proper Catholic attitude clearly expounded upon by Msgr. Fenton in his treatise on the infallibility of papal encyclicals, and the Dimond Brothers, ironically, are among the very very few who hold that balanced view.

So, the problem is that both sides miss the forest of indefectibility for the trees of infallibility.  Sorry, R&R, but we're not talking about a mistake in some expository obiter dictum in an Encyclical Letter here, but we're talking about a body of putative Magisterium that has been total garbage for 60+ years, and has bee infecting souls with error and destroying souls.  We've clearly crossed the line from simple infallibility into R&R positing a defection of the Church.  Not only do they hold that the Papal Magisterium has turned to garbage, but the Church's Public Worship also offends God and harms souls, and the Conciliar catalog of saints, it's an utter joke and abomination.  That's to attribute no less a defection to the Church than the Old Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and even the Protestants did.  in fact, the Old Catholics were originally more orthodox than Modern R&R, who are nothing but thinly veiled Old Catholic heretics who like the smells of incense and the sound of bells and Gregorian chant.  Those who hold this are heretics and cannot be said to hold the Catholic faith.

Unfortunately, however, many sedevacantists, those especially of the dogmatic variety, rather than the more moderate "opinionist" types ... overreacted to this grave error by falsely joining the battle on R&R's terms, the definition of strict infallibiility, and they are unable to concede that even the slightest papal teaching could contain error, since then the R&R could just claim that what's happened is just a difference of degree, not of kind.  So, could an Encyclical or even non-dogmatic Conciliar docuмent contains an error, even one, where the text was explanatory and not intending to define?  If you allow that, then ... what about two, or three, or twenty-five, or "5%-Fellay"?  So the SVs are unable to concede even the shadow of error in any papal Magisterium since they believe that by conceding that they've lost the battle.

So these two camps polarize the entire Traditional movement between R&R and SV.  But if R&R adopted the actual position of +Lefebvre, which was not their warped Old Catholicism, but was more "Doubt & Resist", or D&R, NOT R&R (Father Cekada did a disservice by coining that term, and served the polarization) ... and if the dogmatic SVs would admit that not everything a Pope ever teaches is infallible, while maintaining that we've crossed the line into a difference of kind, where this Conciliar Church simply reprsents something substantially different from the pre-V2 Church and that the (actual) R&R posit a defection of the Church, there could be some hope that Traditional Catholics would at least recognize one another as Catholic, even if they entertained different opinions, such as, say the Thomists and Molinists disagree on.
Thank you for sharing. It is my understanding that Fenton wrote theological treatises, which I was taught is generally not appropriate for laity to be reading. This book, however, was intended mainly for the laity, and discusses the dogma of papal infallibility in great detail, teaching what it is, and what it is not. One of the reasons I shared those particular citations was to spark the interest of the reader, in hopes that the entire work would be read.

I do not see how the citations are not relevant, because traditional catholics (both sedes and resisters) cite cuм Ex Apostolatus by Pope Paul IV, to defend their respective positions, and obviously come to different conclusions. Additionally, even though we are facing a general apostasy among the clergy and it is more than a question of a heretical pope, it is nevertheless true that the discussion of a heretical pope is very much relevant and an important question for clergy to answer, if possible.

As I am sure you would agree with, the papal question is precisely what causes the current circuмstances to be so perplexing and devastating, because even in the Arian crisis when most bishops fell away, there was still a Pope that maintained unity of Faith, however weak or imprudent his approach was (see St. Alphonsus Liguori's "History of Heresies and their Refutation", where he ardently maintains that Pope Liberius never defected from the Faith, and implied that if he did, the gates of hell would have prevailed). To all appearances, humanly speaking, (I do not believe this of course) it seems that the gates of hell have prevailed, because of who is sitting on the throne of Peter, not because of the apostasy of most bishops, which again, occurred during the Arian crisis.

Here we have, in this book, the most authoritative commentary on cuм Ex Apostolatus. Bishop Fessler uses mainly St. Robert Bellarmine and Ballerini to support his points. Would not Bishop Fessler have the greatest insight and more authority to speak on this matter, since he was not only present when this dogma was discussed and defined, but was the Council's Secretary General? Because all traditional catholics accept Pope Pius IX as a true pope and would have no reasonable objections to reading this book, it is most conducive to unifying everyone if all can agree to at least read this book with a pure intention, and discuss it with a pure intention (especially among the clergy).

Pope Pius IX, extract from the brief written to Bishop Fessler, April 27th, 1871:

"... We esteem it a very opportune and useful thing to have beaten back the audacity of Professor Schulte, inciting as he does the secular powers against the dogma of Papal Infallibility, as defined by the Ecuмenical Council of the Vatican. For it is a matter the true meaning of which, not all men, and especially not all laymen, have a thoroughly clear understanding of, and the truth, when lucidly set forth, is wont to expel from properly constituted minds opinions which men perhaps have drunk in with their mother’s milk, to confirm others in a right mind, and fortify them against insidious attacks. Wherefore, if you continue to refute figments of this kind, you will deserve well of our most holy religion, and of all Christian people, in that, like a good pastor, you withdraw them from poisoned pastures. We make known to you, then, the great pleasure you have given Us, both by reason of the book which you have presented to Us, as well as by reason of your most affectionate letters; and We pray that you may receive a rich reward for your deference to Our authority and devotion towards Ourselves.”

Re: The True and the False Infallibility of the Popes
« Reply #3 on: Today at 11:40:50 AM »
A non-infallible papal act can contain ambiguity or even imprudence without implying that the protection of the Holy Ghost has failed; likewise, indefectibility does not require that every pastoral decision across decades be optimal. To say that any concession of error destroys indefectibility is maximalism, but to say that the Church herself has crossed into a different substance is equally un-Thomistic, because indefectibility pertains to the Church’s essence, not to the fluctuating quality of governance.

The real Thomistic position is neither exaggerated obedience nor metaphysical rupture. It is best described as doubt and resist. Doubt, meaning the intellect recognizes unresolved tensions in non-definitive teaching and refuses premature certitude. Resist, meaning fidelity to prior doctrine and traditional praxis when prudence judges newer expressions to be harmful or unclear. This differs from modern “recognize and resist,” which can imply constant polemic, and it also differs from sedevacantist certainty, which resolves tension by denying the visible structure. Thomism would insist that one may question prudential or disciplinary developments without attributing bad faith, and may defend tradition without constructing conspiratorial narratives about predetermined outcomes or theatrical disputes.

The Thomistic framework also corrects the claim that most of the papal magisterium could become spiritually destructive while the Church remains herself; such language confuses the fallibility of particular expressions with the indefectibility of the Church’s formal teaching authority. Yet it also rejects the opposite exaggeration that every papal utterance enjoys a quasi-infallible protection. Tradition distinguishes levels of authority precisely so that Catholics are not forced into either blind acceptance or total rejection. In this sense, “doubt and resist” is not a compromise but a disciplined application of classical theology: hold fast to what has been defined, suspend judgment where authority speaks without defining, and refuse to turn prudential disagreements into accusations of hidden plots or absolute ruptures in the Church’s being.



Re: The True and the False Infallibility of the Popes
« Reply #4 on: Today at 11:59:35 AM »
The big question is whether a true pope can teach heresy materially (i.e., without he himself being a formal heretic) to the Universal Church.  I hold that it is theologically possible.