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Author Topic: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima  (Read 14743 times)

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Offline Giovanni Berto

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Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2023, 09:25:24 PM »
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  • Well, reference to the "Kingdom" of Wojtyla actually lines up with the Dimond Brothers interpretation of the Popes being the kings referred to in the book of Revelation.

    When was this text originally discovered?  Allegedly written in 1944, it would be interesting to mention JP2.

    Wasn't the "church" built in Fatima some kind of Modernist abomination anyway?

    The word in the original tex is "reinado", which, in my opinion, is more correctly translated as "reign", and not "kingdom".

    There is probably not anything deeper to see here. It is more likely to be simply a poor choice of words by the translator.

    Another strange thing is that the original texts says "Juan Pablo II", which is John Paul II in Spanish. The Portuguese name for John Paul II would be "João Paulo II".

    This is very strange. I have never heard a Portuguese speaker calling John Paul II "Juan Pablo II". It gives the impression that the text was written by a Spanish speaker who did not know good Portuguese.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
    « Reply #31 on: September 18, 2023, 08:16:25 AM »
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  • Another strange thing is that the original texts says "Juan Pablo II", which is John Paul II in Spanish. The Portuguese name for John Paul II would be "João Paulo II".

    This is very strange. I have never heard a Portuguese speaker calling John Paul II "Juan Pablo II". It gives the impression that the text was written by a Spanish speaker who did not know good Portuguese.
    .

    Thank you, John, this is very interesting, especially from a native Portuguese speaker.

    There was another reader who wrote in the objection you made about the Spanish form of John Paul instead of Portuguese, and unfortunately I can't find it again (that site is terribly badly organized) but basically I think Guimaraes said that Sr. Lucy was living in a convent in Spain at that time, and people use the form of name of people of the language they normally speak. So, since she was probably speaking Spanish there, she would use the Spanish form of John Paul even though the rest of it was Portuguese.

    It's similar to how we call her Sr. "Lucy" instead of "Lucia", and how I called you "John" at the beginning of those post. :trollface:


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
    « Reply #32 on: September 18, 2023, 08:55:00 AM »
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  • .

    Thank you, John, this is very interesting, especially from a native Portuguese speaker.

    There was another reader who wrote in the objection you made about the Spanish form of John Paul instead of Portuguese, and unfortunately I can't find it again (that site is terribly badly organized) but basically I think Guimaraes said that Sr. Lucy was living in a convent in Spain at that time, and people use the form of name of people of the language they normally speak. So, since she was probably speaking Spanish there, she would use the Spanish form of John Paul even though the rest of it was Portuguese.

    It's similar to how we call her Sr. "Lucy" instead of "Lucia", and how I called you "John" at the beginning of those post. :trollface:

    Surely, this is a possibility, but the strange thing is, that even if she did not know how to translate "John Paul II" from Spanish from Portuguese, this is a message that she heard from Our Lady herself, and not from a Spanish speaker.

    This is decades before John Paul II became Pope, so, the only occasion that Sr. Lucy had heard this name was in the apparitions decades before. And we know that Our Lady spoke Portuguese with the children, since this was the only language that they could understand, as far as I know.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
    « Reply #33 on: September 18, 2023, 09:28:10 AM »
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  • Surely, this is a possibility, but the strange thing is, that even if she did not know how to translate "John Paul II" from Spanish from Portuguese, this is a message that she heard from Our Lady herself, and not from a Spanish speaker.

    This is decades before John Paul II became Pope, so, the only occasion that Sr. Lucy had heard this name was in the apparitions decades before. And we know that Our Lady spoke Portuguese with the children, since this was the only language that they could understand, as far as I know.
    .

    Here's what Guimaraes wrote:


    Quote
    If we suppose that this docuмent is authentic, we would have to distinguish between the words Our Lady would have spoken and the human characteristics of the seer, Sister Lucy.

     If Sister Lucy would have written her report with some grammar mistake - for example, incorrectly using the future of the subjunctive - this would not mean that Our Lady does not know well Portuguese, but would just reflect the level of knowledge that Sister Lucy had of her language when she wrote that message.

     The presence of human shortcomings in Divine Revelations is paradigmatic in the case of Moses, who was a stutterer. When he related - stuttering - the message he received from God, his listeners did not conclude that God was also a stutterer, but they excluded the human limitations of Moses from the Commandments that came from God.

     Hence, Sister Lucy reporting the name of the future Pontiff as being Juan Pablo in Spanish, instead of João Paulo in Portuguese, could be easily explained by her living in Tuy, Spain, from 1926 until the date she wrote her message in 1944. It would be quite understandable that, living for more than 17 years in a Spanish-speaking convent, she would replace the original João Paulo spoken by Our Lady with its Spanish translation Juan Pablo.

     I do not believe that this small confusion in languages distorts the content of the message or speaks against its authenticity. On the contrary, it leads one to deem that the person who wrote that message is Portuguese, influenced by a Spanish-speaking ambience. This actually fits the case of Sister Lucy, as I just noted, and suggests that she wrote that message.


    His last line is intriguing. I think it's a good point that the detail of a native Portuguese-speaker writing in Portuguese, but using the Spanish version of someone's name due to living in Spain where such a practice would have become unconsciously habitual is a detail that a forger would likely not have thought of inserting for the very reason you mentioned -- that he would have made the whole text in Portuguese. But it seems natural for someone to use the name of a person in the language they habitually speak.

    I think this actually lends to the credibility of this text.

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
    « Reply #34 on: September 18, 2023, 09:45:35 AM »
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  • 7. The second to last line is very strange to me. It refers to an order, and Rome being destroyed if it doesn't comply within 69 weeks of the publication of the order. The docuмent doesn't contain any orders that I can find. And the deadline of 69 weeks strikes me as a bizarre length of time. First of all, as i said above, Rome can't be destroyed. Secondly, is this a week of days or a week of years, as in Daniel? If the former, that's barely over a year; a short amount of time for a thread. If the latter, that's almost half a millennium before the punishment is carried out; far too long. Also, I wonder if this is why the secret was never published? Because they never wanted to start the clock ticking on those 69 weeks, so the popes never published it?! If so, why would Our Lady have put a threat in the secret that has such a gigantic loophole in it?

    Thanks Yeti for the reposting of the letter.  Not quite sure what you mean by "Rome can't be destroyed."  Why can Rome not be destroyed, or totally ransacked?  I could even foresee St. Peter's in Rome being totally demolished stone by stone.  There is no foundation in Holy Writ or the writings of the fathers that suggests Rome cannot be totally destroyed.  In fact, the see of Rome could be removed to Jerusalem, which could happen around the time of antichrist.  Apocalypse 11:2 talks about the "Holy City" being tread under foot for 42 months, which is 3.5 years, and might refer to the time of antichrist, and might refer to Rome; but these are speculations.  It is most probable that this text refers to the time of antichrist since the next verse refers to the "two witnesses," which are assuredly Enoch and Elias.  

    In this thread there is talk of the "70 weeks," but I see no indication of this in the letter.  Am I missing something?  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
    « Reply #35 on: September 18, 2023, 11:15:03 AM »
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  • There just seems to be too much evidence of tampering to be able to put much stock in this letter.  And the key events are now in the past.  We already know for certain that the Secret is about this Great Apostasy, and I think we can confidently piece together that something dramatic will happen in the 2028/2029 timeframe.  Our Lady asked for the consecration of Russia on June 13, 1929, and then later Our Lord told Sister Lucia that the Popes were following the example of the Kings of France, who were asked to consecrate France to His Sacred Heart but, having not done so, were deposed exactly 100 years to the day of His initial request ... and about 3.5 years later were executed.  So the only thing not already known was this part about the transfer to Fatima, which seems suspect, as that church there with the JP2 cornerstone is yet another Modernist monstrosity.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
    « Reply #36 on: September 18, 2023, 11:26:17 AM »
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  • Thanks Yeti for the reposting of the letter.  Not quite sure what you mean by "Rome can't be destroyed."  Why can Rome not be destroyed, or totally ransacked?  I could even foresee St. Peter's in Rome being totally demolished stone by stone.  There is no foundation in Holy Writ or the writings of the fathers that suggests Rome cannot be totally destroyed.  In fact, the see of Rome could be removed to Jerusalem, which could happen around the time of antichrist.  Apocalypse 11:2 talks about the "Holy City" being tread under foot for 42 months, which is 3.5 years, and might refer to the time of antichrist, and might refer to Rome; but these are speculations.  It is most probable that this text refers to the time of antichrist since the next verse refers to the "two witnesses," which are assuredly Enoch and Elias. 

    In this thread there is talk of the "70 weeks," but I see no indication of this in the letter.  Am I missing something? 

    The reference to the "70 weeks" is in the last two lines of the Sister Lucia's letter:

    Quote
    If 69 weeks after this order is announced, Rome continues its abomination, the city will be destroyed.

     Our Lady told us that this is written,[in] Daniel 9:24-25 and Matthew 21:42-44

    Our Lady uses the phrase "after 69 weeks." Daniel 9:24-25 discusses what is known as the "70 weeks" prophecy. So, Our Lady is saying to look to Daniel, chapter 9 as the guide to what she is referring to. But, as I said above, the word that is translated as "weeks" is a unique word that translators disagree about. But what is clear is that Daniel, chapter 9 should be read as an explanation of the "70 years" prophecy of Jeremiah. Therefore, 70 "weeks" is actually 70 years because it refers to the Feast of Weeks that happens every year, once a year. So the more precise translation would be after "69 Feasts of Weeks...."

    The "order" was supposed to be "announced" after the death of Pius XII (9 OCT 1958) and before 1960, according to Our Lady. So basically, the count starts at the Feast of Weeks in 1959. The 69th Feast of Weeks after that occurs in 2027. So, sometime after the Feast of Weeks in 2027 "if...Rome continues its abomination, the city will be destroyed."

    Offline Cera

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    Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
    « Reply #37 on: September 18, 2023, 12:28:36 PM »
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  • Atila Guimarães is not the source, as you can see if you read the first post related to the message. He was initially skeptical about the message, considering that it might even be an April Fools joke.

    https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/B352_Secret.html
    Again I say -- consider the source. Guimarãess is a person who worshipped Mr. Plinio, who publicly said his "confession" to this man, who prayed a mockery of the Ave Maria to this man, who participated in the worship of this man and this man's mother, who is or was part of what Bishop Mayer called an "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical, heretical sect" and who never renounced his "slavery" in this heretical cult. Guimarães has removed from his website his previous statement that he would rather spend time with Mr. Plinio than with Our Lord Himself. He is a master manipulator.

    I can't beleive that this is being taken seriously. Don't fall for the play-acting antics of Mr. Guimaraes. The objective reality is that he came up with the letter and SAID he was initially skeptical, as if this is "proof" of anything. I urge CI members to pray for the gift of discerment.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
    « Reply #38 on: September 18, 2023, 02:46:35 PM »
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  • Thanks Yeti for the reposting of the letter.  Not quite sure what you mean by "Rome can't be destroyed."  Why can Rome not be destroyed, or totally ransacked?   
    .

    It could be totally ransacked, and has been, but since it is the diocese that contains the head of the Church, and the Church must always have a head, theologians believe that this diocese (and therefore the city of Rome) will exist until the end of the world. They also teach that the fact of Rome being the diocese whose bishop is the head of the Church also means that the city itself will always exist.

    That doesn't mean that it will always have millions of people, obviously. It could be nearly destroyed with only a few people left, but the city will always exist as such until the end of time.

    Theologians also believe that selection of Rome to be the head of the Church was of divine institution, and most of them believe this is permanent, and that God would not move the headquarters of the Church from Rome to any other location, and also that human beings (even the pope himself) do not have the authority to do this either.

    This is a subject that is discussed in De Ecclesia manuals.

    Monsignor Fenton wrote an article about this question in great detail that I tried to find but the internet can't seem to find anything anymore. In any case, that's the gist of it.

    Quote
    I could even foresee St. Peter's in Rome being totally demolished stone by stone.

    Yes, but that's just a building. The diocese of Rome, and the function of its bishop as the pope will last until the end of the world. It is impossible for the office of the papacy to become redefined as being the bishop of Fatima instead of the bishop of Rome.

    That's a problem with the second half of the message, I think, assuming I'm interpreting it correctly.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
    « Reply #39 on: September 18, 2023, 02:51:35 PM »
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  • The "order" was supposed to be "announced" after the death of Pius XII (9 OCT 1958) and before 1960, according to Our Lady. So basically, the count starts at the Feast of Weeks in 1959. The 69th Feast of Weeks after that occurs in 2027. So, sometime after the Feast of Weeks in 2027 "if...Rome continues its abomination, the city will be destroyed."
    .

    What exactly is the order being referred to? I'm really unclear on this. There are two statements in the text that could be described as being an order, and they are:


    Quote
    In the kingdom of John Paul II the cornerstone of Peter's grave must be removed and transferred to Fatima.
    and


    Quote
    The cathedral of Rome must be destroyed and a new one built in Fatima.

    So if Rome doesn't convert after the publication of this order (within 69 weeks of the publication), the city will be destroyed.

    Is this a translation problem? Can the word being used as "order" simply mean a message from someone in authority, and thus refer to the secret as a whole?

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
    « Reply #40 on: September 18, 2023, 03:02:25 PM »
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  • I can't beleive that this is being taken seriously. Don't fall for the play-acting antics of Mr. Guimaraes. The objective reality is that he came up with the letter and SAID he was initially skeptical, as if this is "proof" of anything. I urge CI members to pray for the gift of discerment.
    .

    The theory that Guimaraes himself made this whole thing up is theoretically possible but extremely unlikely. This docuмent was examined by professional handwriting experts who say it is written by the same person who wrote the first and second secret of Fatima, i.e. Sr. Lucy. So, either Guimaraes is a professional docuмent and handwriting forger who is so good that he can fool professional handwriting experts, or he hired someone who was. I'm sure those people don't come cheap, though, so why would he pay all that money?

    I guess he could have written this docuмent AND pretended to have hired the handwriting experts, and he himself could simply have written that entire page where they allegedly present their analysis. Maybe that's the only plausible scenario in which Guimaraes could be making a hoax. But that's a lot of work that went into it, and for what motive? It doesn't make any sense.

    Not to mention, despite what you seem to think, Tradition in Action is not exactly some tabloid magazine. I don't agree with their anti-sedevacantist position, but no one has ever caught them in any act of dishonesty that I know of, and the other articles on the site are intelligent, well-researched, and informative. And they've been around for years, maybe decades, with a reputation of integrity behind them.


    Offline Emile

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    Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
    « Reply #41 on: September 18, 2023, 03:08:33 PM »
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  • Monsignor Fenton wrote an article about this question in great detail...
    Is this it, Yeti?

    https://archive.org/details/sim_american-ecclesiastical-review_1950-06_122_6/page/454/mode/1up

    OCR text:

    THE LOCAL CHURCH OF ROME


    According to the divine constitution of Our Lord’s kingdom
    on earth, membership in that kingdom, the universal Church
    militant, normally involves membership in some local or individual
    brotherhood within the universal Church. These individual
    brotherhoods within the Catholic Church are of two kinds. First
    there are the various local Churches, the associations of the faith-
    ful in the different individual regions of the earth. Then there
    are the religiones, assemblies of the faithful organized unice et ex
    integro for the attainment of perfection on the part of those who
    are admitted into them. According to the Apostolic Constitution
    Provida mater ecclesia, “the canonical discipline of the state of
    perfection as a public state was so wisely regulated by the Church
    that, in the case of clerical religious Institutes, in those matters in
    general which concern the clerical life of the religious, the Insti-
    tutes took the place of dioceses, and membership in a religious
    society was equivalent to the incardination of a cleric in a diocese.””!

    Among these individual brotherhoods that live within the uni-
    versal Church of God on earth, the local Church of Rome mani-
    festly occupies a unique position. Theologians of an earlier day
    stressed these prerogatives of the Roman Church quite strongly.
    Unfortunately, however, in our own time the manuals of sacred
    theology, considered as a group, dwell almost exclusively upon the
    nature and the characteristics of the Church universal, without
    explaining the teaching about the local Church at any length.
    Consistently with this trend, they have chosen to teach about the
    Holy Father in relation to the Church throughout the entire world,
    and have given comparatively little attention to his function pre-
    cisely as the head of the Christian Church in the Eternal City.

    Thus we and the people whom God has commissioned us to
    instruct may be prone to forget that it is precisely by reason of
    the fact that he presides over this individual local congregation
    that the Holy Father is the successor of St. Peter and thus the
    visible head of the entire Church militant. The Christian com-


    1The Provida mater ecciesia was issued on Feb. 2, 1947. The translation
    of this passage is that of Bouscaren in his Canon Law Digest: Supplement
    through 1948 (Milwaukee: Bruce Publishing Company, 1949), p. 66.


    454


    THE LOCAL CHURCH OF ROME 455


    munity of Rome was and remains Peter’s Church. The man who
    governs that community with apostolic power in the name of Christ
    is Peter’s successor, and is thus Our Lord’s vicar in the rule of
    the Church universal.

    It is definitely the more common teaching among the scholastic
    theologians that the office of the visible head of the entire Church
    militant is inseparably attached to the position of the Bishop of
    Rome, and that this absolutely permanent attachment exists by
    reason of the divine constitution of the Church itself. In other
    words, an imposing majority of Catholic theologians who have
    written on this particular subject have manifested the belief that
    no human agency, not even the Holy Father himself, could render
    the primacy of jurisdiction over the Church universal the pre-
    rogative of some episcopal see other than that of Rome or other-
    wise separate that primacy from the office and the essential pre-
    rogatives of the Bishop of Rome. According to this widely ac-
    cepted teaching, the successor of St. Peter, the vicar of Christ on
    earth, could not possibly be other than the Bishop who presides
    over the local Christian community of the Eternal City.

    During even its earliest stage of development, scholastic ecclesi-
    ology taught expressly that when St. Peter established himself
    as the head of the local Christian community in Rome, he was
    acting in accordance with God’s own direction. Thus Alvaro
    Pelayo teaches that the Prince of the Apostles transferred his See
    from Antioch to Rome “iubente Domino,” and that the location
    of the principal seat of the Christian priesthood in the “caput et
    domina totius mundi” was to be attributed to Divine Providence.”
    A century later, the Cardinal John de Turrecremata insisted that
    a special command of Christ had made Rome the primatial See
    of the Catholic Church.* Turrecremata argued that this action
    on the part of Our Lord made it impossible for even the Sovereign
    Pontiff himself to detach the primacy from Peter’s own local
    Church in the Eternal City. Later Thomas de Vio Cardinal


    2Cf. De statu ct planctu ecclesiae, I, a. 40, in Iung, Un Franciscain, théo-
    logien du pouvoir pontifical au XIV* siécle: Alvaro Pelayo, Evéque et Péni-
    tencier de Jean XXII (Paris: Vrin, 1931), p. 111.


    3 Cf. Summa de ecclesia, II, c. 40 (Venice, 1561), p. 154°.


    456 THE AMERICAN ECCLESIASTICAL REVIEW


    Cajetan taught that St. Peter had established his See at Rome
    by Our Lord’s express command.‘

    The counter-Reformation theologians took up this question in
    much greater detail. Dominic Soto sponsored the teaching, previ-
    ously attacked by Turrecremata, to the effect that the fixing of
    the primatial See at Rome was attributable only to St. Peter, in
    his capacity as the head of the universal Church.5 Thus Soto held
    that any one of St. Peter’s successors in the Supreme Pontificate
    could, if he so chose, transfer the primatial See to some other
    city, in exactly the same way and with exactly the same authority
    St. Peter had used in bringing the primacy from Antioch to Rome.

    Soto’s solution of this question never obtained any considerable
    foothold in scholastic ecclesiology. His contemporary, the ever-
    truculent Melchoir Cano, derided the contention that, since there
    is no scriptural evidence in favor of any divine command that
    the primatial See should have been established in Rome, St. Peter’s
    transfer from Antioch to Rome must be attributed only to St.
    Peter’s own choice.* He employed the occasion of this teaching
    to bring out his own teaching on the importance of tradition as a
    source of revelation and as a locus theologicus.

    The traditional thesis that Rome is and always will be the
    primatial See of the Catholic Church received its most important
    development in St. Robert Bellarmine’s Controversies. St. Robert
    devoted the fourth chapter of the fourth book of his treatise De
    Romano Pontifice to the question De Romana ecclesia particulari.
    His main thesis in this chapter was the contention that not only
    the Roman Pontiff, but also the particular or local Church of the
    city of Rome, must be considered as incapable of error in matters
    of faith.’

    In the course of this chapter St. Robert exposed as “a pious
    and most probable teaching” the opinion that “Peter’s cathedra


    4Cf. Apologia de comparata auctoritate papae et concilii, c. 13, in Pollet’s
    edition of Cajetan’s Scripta theologica (Rome: Angelicuм, 1935), I, 299.


    5 Cf. Commentaria in IV Sent., d. 24.


    6 Cf. De locis theologicis, Lib. VI, c. 8, in the Opera theologica (Rome:
    Filiziani, 1900), II, 44.
    7Cf. De controversiis christianae fideit adversus huius temporis hacreticos


    (Cologne, 1620), I, col. 811.


    5


    THE LOCAL CHURCH OF ROME 457


    could not be taken away from Rome,”® and that, for this reason,
    the individual Roman Church must be considered as both infallible
    and indefectible. In support of this thesis which, incidentally, he
    considered as an opinion and not as entirely certain, St. Robert
    appealed to the doctrine that “God Himself has ordered Peter’s
    Apostolic See to be fixed in Rome.”®

    St. Robert by no means closed the door entirely on the thesis
    of Dominic Soto. He admits the possibility that the divine mandate
    according to which St. Peter assumed command of the Church in
    Rome might have been merely a kind of “inspiration” from God,
    rather than a definite and express order issued by Our Lord
    Himself. Always insistent that his thesis was not a matter of
    divine faith, he repeated his contention that it was most probable
    and pie credendum “that the See has been established at Rome
    by divine and immutable precept.”!?

    Gregory of Valentia, however, taught that Soto’s opinion on
    this subject was singularis nec vero satis tuta.11 Adam Tanner
    believed the thesis that “the supreme authority to govern the
    Church has been inseparably joined to the Roman See by direct
    and divine institution and law,” though not a doctrine of faith,
    was still something which could not be denied absque temeritate.!*
    In his Tractatus de fide Suarez taught that it seemed more prob-
    able and “pious” to say that St. Peter had joined the primacy over
    the entire Church militant to the See of Rome by reason of
    Our Lord’s own precept and will. Suarez believed, however, that
    St. Peter received no such order from Christ prior to the Ascen-
    sion.'* The outstanding seventeenth century theologians, Francis
    Sylvius and John Wiggers also subscribed to the opinion that the
    primacy was permanently attached to the local Church of Rome by
    reason of Our Lord’s own command."


    8 Cf. ibid., col. 812.

    9 [bid., col. 813.

    10 Jbid., col. 814.

    11 Cf, Valentia’s Commentaria theologica (Ingolstadt, 1603), III, col. 276.

    12. Cf. Tanner’s Theologia scholastica (Ingolstadt, 1627), III, col. 240.

    13 Cf, Suarez’ Opus de triplici virtute theologica (Lyons, 1621), p. 197.

    14 Cf. Sylvius’ De praccipuis fidet nostrae orthodoxae controverstis cuм
    nostris haercticis, Lib. IV, q. 1, a. 6, in D’Elbecque’s edition of Sylvius’
    Opera omnia (Antwerp, 1698), V, 297; Wigger’s Commentaria de virtutibus
    theologicis (Louvain, 1689), p. 63.


    \


    458 THE AMERICAN ECCLESIASTICAL REVIEW


    The status of this thesis was further improved when Pope
    Benedict XIV inserted it into his De synodo diocesana.’® Pope
    Benedict believed that St. Peter had chosen the Roman Church
    either at Our Lord’s command, or on his own authority, acting
    under divine inspiration or guidance. Billuart taught that Rome
    was chosen as a result of Our Lord’s own direct instruction.'® John
    Perrone taught that no human authority could transfer the pri-
    macy over the universal Church from the See of Rome."

    In more recent times interest in this particular thesis has cen-
    tered around the question of the manner in which God had joined
    the primacy to the episcopate of the local Church of Rome.
    Some, like Dominic Palmieri, consider it probable that St. Peter
    received a divinely revealed mandate to establish his See perma-
    nently at Rome before he assumed the leadership of the local Church
    of the Eternal City.1% Others, like Reginald Schultes, believe such
    an antecedent command most unlikely, but insist that an explicit
    divine mandate to this effect was probably given to St. Peter prior
    to his martyrdom.’® Still others, like Cardinal Franzelin and
    Bishops Felder and D’Herbigny, give it as their opinion that St.
    Peter’s final choice of Rome was brought about by a movement
    of divine grace or inspiration of such a nature as to preclude the
    possibility of any transfer of the primatial See from Rome at any
    subsequent time.”° Cardinal Billot taught that Rome held its posi-
    tion dispositione divina, and that this thesis, though not yet defined,


    15 Cf. De synodo diocesana, Lib. II, c. 1, in Migne’s Theologiae cursus
    completus (Paris, 1840), XXV, col. 825.

    16 Cf, Billuart’s Tractatus de regulis fidei, diss. 4, a. 4, in the Summa
    Sancti Thomae hodiernis academiarum moribus accommodata sive cursus
    theologiae juxta mentem Divi Thomae (Paris: LeCoffre, 1904), V, 171 f.

    17 Cf, Perrone’s Tractatus de locis theologicis, pars I, c. 2, in his Praelec-
    tiones theologicae in compendium redactae (Paris, 1861), I, 135.

    18 Cf, Palmieri’s Tractatus de Romano Pontifice cuм prolegomeno de
    ecclesia (Prado, 1891), pp. 416 ff.

    19 Cf. Schultes’ De ecclesia catholica praelectiones apologeticae (Paris:
    Lethielleux, 1931), pp. 450 ff.

    20 Cf. Franzelin’s Theses de ecclesia Christi (Rome, 1887), pp. 210 ff.;
    Felder’s Apologetica sive theologia fundamentalis (Paderborn: Schoeningh,
    1923), II, 120 f.; and D’Herbigny’s Theoloyia de ecclesia (Paris: Beau-
    chesne, 1927), II, 213 ff.


    i


    THE LOCAL CHURCH OF ROME 459


    was unquestionably capable of definition. It is interesting to
    note that Gerard Paris wrote that more probably the primacy
    over the universal Church was joined to the episcopate of Rome
    ture divino, saltem indirecto.** The possibility of such an indirect
    divine mandate has not been generally considered in the recent
    literature of scholastic ecclesiology.

    An overwhelming majority of theologians since the Vatican
    Council has upheld the thesis that, in one way or another, the
    primacy is permanently attached to the local Church of Rome
    ture divino. Within this majority we find such outstanding ecclesi-
    ologists as Cardinal Camillus Mazzella, Bonal, Tepe, Crosta, De
    Groot, Hurter, Dorsch, Manzoni, Bainvel, Tanquerey, Hervé,
    Michelitsch, Van Noort, and Lercher.** Despite the preponderance
    of testimony in favor of this thesis, however, Saiz Ruiz and Cal-
    cagno reject the theological arguments usually adduced in its
    favor, while Dieckmann refers to the question as subject to con-


    21 Cf. Billot’s Tractatus de ecclesia Christi, 5th edition (Rome: Gregorian
    University, 1927), I, 613 f.

    22. Cf. Paris’ Tractatus de ecclesia Christi (Turin: Marietti, 1929), pp.

    23 Cf. Card. Mazzella’s De religitone et ecclesia praelectiones scholastico-
    dogmaticae, 6th edition (Prado, 1905), pp. 731 ff.; Bonal’s IJnstitutiones
    theologiae ad usum seminariorum, 16th edition (Toulouse, 1887), I, 422 ff.;
    Tepe’s Institutiones theologicae in usum scholarum (Paris: Lethielleux,
    1894), I, 307 f.; Crosta’s Theologia dogmatica in usum scholarum, 3rd edi-
    tion (Gallarate: Lazzati, 1932), I, 309 ff.; De Groot’s Summa apologetica de
    ecclesia catholica, 3rd edition (Regensburg, 1906), pp. 575 ff.; Hurter’s
    Theologiae dogmaticae compendium, 2nd edition (Innsbruck, 1878), I, 332;
    Dorsch’s Institutiones theologiae fundamentalis, 2nd edition (Innsbruck:
    Rauch, 1928), II, 229; Manzoni’s Compendium theologiae dogmaticae, 4th
    edition (Turin: Berruti, 1928), I, 263; Bainvel’s De ecclesia Christi (Paris:
    3eauchesne, 1925), p. 201; Tanquerey’s Synopsis theologiae dogmaticae fun-
    damentalis, 24th edition (Paris: Desclée, 1937), p. 492; Hervé’s Manuale
    theologiae dogmaticae, 18th edition (Paris: Berche et Pagis, 1934), I, 401;
    Michelitsch’s Elementa apologeticae sive theologiae fundamentalis, 3rd edi-
    tion (Vienna: Styria, 1925), p. 378; Van Noort’s Tractatus de ecclesia
    Christi, 5th edition (Hilversum, Holland: Brand, 1932), p. 188; and Lercher’s
    Institutiones theologiae dogmaticac, 2nd edition (Innsbruck: Rauch, 1934),


    I, 378 ff.


    460 THE AMERICAN ECCLESIASTICAL REVIEW


    troversy.*4 Granderath makes it evident that the Vatican Council
    had no intention of condemning Dominic Soto’s teaching in its
    Constitution Pastor aeternus.”®


    As a consequence of this inseparable union of the primacy with
    the episcopate of Rome, scholastic theology points to the common
    Catholic teaching that the local Church of Rome, the faithful of
    the Eternal City presided over by their Bishop who is surrounded
    by his own priests and other clerics, as an infallible and inde-
    fectible institution. If, until the end of time, the man who is
    charged with the responsibility of presiding over the universal
    Church militant as Christ’s vicar on earth is necessarily the head
    of the local Church in Rome, then it follows quite obviously that
    the local Church of the Eternal City must be destined by God to
    continue to live as long as the Church militant itself. A man could
    not be Bishop of Rome unless there were a definite Roman Church
    over which he could rule by divine authority.

    The thesis on the indefectibility of the local Church of Rome has
    received rather considerable development in the literature of scho-
    lastic ecclesiology. Saiz Ruiz is of the opinion that, if the city of
    Rome were destroyed, it would be sufficient to have the Sovereign
    Pontiffs retain the title of Bishop of Rome “‘sicut hodie episcopi in
    partibus.”*®> The terminology of most of the other modern and
    classical theologians who have dealt wtih this question, however,
    involves a rejection of this contention. The bishops in partibus
    infidelium, properly called titular bishops since Pope Leo XIII
    decreed this change in terminology in his apostolic letter Jn
    supremo, of June 10, 1882, have no jurisdiction whatever over
    the Catholics of the locality where their ancient churches were
    situated. No man, according to the prevailing teaching of scholas-


    24Cf. Saiz Ruiz, Synthesis sive notae theologiae fundamentalis (Burgos,
    1906), pp. 430 ff.; Calcagno, Theologia fundamentalis (Naples: D’Auria,
    1948), pp. 229 f.; and Dieckmann, De ecclesia tractatus historico-dogmatici
    (Freiburg-im-Breisgau: Herder, 1925), I, 437 f.

    25 Cf. Granderath, Constitutiones dogmaticae sacrosancti oecuмenici Con-
    cilii Vaticani ex ipsis cius actis explicatae atque illustratae (Freiburg-im-
    Breisgau: Herder, 1892), pp. 137 ff. Although Soto’s teaching has not been
    condemned, the doctrine according to which the primacy could be taken away
    from Rome by the action of a general council or of the populace as a whole
    was proscribed by Pius IX in his Syllabus of errors. Cf. DB. 1735.


    26 Cf. Saiz Ruiz, op. cit., p. 433.


    THE LOCAL CHURCH OF ROME 461


    tic theology, could be the successor of St. Peter and thus the
    visible head of the universal Church militant unless he had par-
    ticular episcopal authority over the Christians of the Eternal City.

    Although some theologians, like Suarez and, in our own time
    Mazzella and Manzoni, hold it as probable that the material city
    of Rome will be protected by God’s providence and will never be
    completely destroyed,”* most of the others hold that this destruc-
    tion is a possibility. They maintain, however, that the destruction
    of the buildings and even the complete uninhabitability of the
    city itself would in no way necessitate the destruction of the Roman
    local Church. Older writers like St. Robert Bellarmine were con-
    vinced that at one time the actual city of Rome was entirely with-
    out inhabitants, while the local Church, with its clergy and its
    bishop, continued to live.*8

    From time to time heretics have pointed to the seventeenth
    and the eighteenth chapters of the Apocalypse as indication that
    ultimately there would be no followers of Christ within the city
    of Rome. St. Robert admitted such a possibility at the end of the
    world, but pointed out the traditional interpretation of this section
    of the Apocalypse, particularly that popularized by St. Augustine,
    had nothing to do with the Roman Church during the period im-
    mediately preceding the general judgment.*® Francis Sylvius
    demonstrated that any application of this section of the Apocalypse
    to the Roman Church was merely fanciful.*° Modern theologians,
    Franzelin and Crosta in particular, have followed this procedure.*4

    Another highly important and sometimes overlooked preroga-
    tive of the local Roman Church is its infallibility. By reason of its
    peculiar place in the universal Church militant, this individual
    congregation has always been and will always be protected from
    corporate heresy by God’s providential power. The local Church
    of Rome, with its bishop, its presbyterium, its clergy and its laity


    27 Cf. Suarez, op. cit., p. 198; Mazzella, op. cit., p. 738; Manzoni, op. cit.,
    p. 264.

    28 Cf. St. Robert, of. cit., col. 813.

    29 Cf. ibid., col. 814 .

    30 Cf. Sylvius, op. cit., q. 1, a. 4, conclusio 3, p. 291.

    31 Cf. Franzelin, of. cit., pp. 213 f.; Crosta, of. cit., p. 312, quotes Franzelin
    on this question. It is interesting to note that the doctrines of these scholastics
    coincide with the teachings of the exegete Allo on this subject. Cf. his Saint
    Jean: L’Apocalypse, 3rd edition (Paris: Gabalda, 1933), pp. 264 ff.


    |


    462 THE AMERICAN ECCLESIASTICAL REVIEW


    will exist until the end of time secure in the purity of its faith.
    St. Cyprian alluded to this charism when he spoke of the Catholic
    Romans as those “ad quos perfidia habere non potest accessum.’’**

    This infallibility, not only of the Roman Pontiff, but also of
    the local Church of Rome, was a central theme in the ecclesiology
    of some of the greatest counter-Reformation theologians. Cardinal
    Hosius proposed this thesis in his polemic against Brentius.**
    John Driedo developed it magnificently.** St. Robert explained
    this teaching by saying that the Roman clergy and the Roman
    laity, as a corporate unit, could never fall away from the faith.*®
    The Roman Church, as an individual local institution, can never
    fall away from the faith. Manifestly the same guarantee is given
    to no other local Church.

    It is interesting to note that during the prolonged vacancy of
    the Roman See the presbyters and the deacons of Rome wrote
    to St. Cyprian in such a way as to manifest their conviction that
    the faith of their own local Church, even during this interregnum,
    constituted a norm to which the faith of other local Churches was
    meant to conform.3¢ The Roman Church could not possibly be
    the one with which all the other local congregations of Christen-
    dom must agree were it not endowed with a special infallibility.
    In order to be effective that infallibility must be acknowledged in
    a very practical manner by the other local units of the Church
    militant throughout the world.

    Actually the infallibility of the Roman Church is much more
    than a mere theological opinion. The proposition that “the Church
    of the city of Rome can fall into error” is one of the theses of
    Peter de Osma, formally condemned by Pope Sixtus IV as errone-
    ous and as containing manifest heresy.**

    Since it is true that the local Church of Rome is infallible in its
    faith, and that the Holy Father is the only authoritative teacher of
    the local Church of Rome, it follows that he teaches infallibly


    32 Ep. 59, in CSEL, 3, 2, 683.

    33 Cf. Hosius, Confutatio prolegomenon Brentii (Lyons, 1564), pp. 170 ff.

    34 Cf. Driedo, De ecclesiasticis scripturis et dogmatibus (Louvain, 1530),
    lib. 4, c. 3, pp. 549 ff.

    35 Cf. St. Robert, op. cit., col. 812.

    36 This letter is listed among the epistles of St. Cyprian, n. 30.


    37 Cf. DB, 730.


    2


    THE LOCAL CHURCH OF ROME 463


    when he definitely settles a question about faith or morals so as to
    fix or determine the belief of that local Church. Since the local
    Church of Rome is an effective standard for all the other local
    Churches, and for the universal kingdom of God on earth, in
    matters of belief, the Holy Father must be considered as addressing
    the entire Church militant, at least indirectly, when he speaks
    directly and definitively to the local congregation of the Eternal
    City. Thus it is perfectly possible to have a definition of the type
    described in the Vatican Council’s Constitution Pastor aeternus,
    one in which the Holy Father speaks ex cathedra, “exercising his
    function as the pastor and the teacher of all Christians” and so
    “according to his supreme apostolic authority defines a doctrine
    about faith or morals to be held by the universal Church,’’’® pre-
    cisely when he speaks to determine the faith of the local Church
    of Rome.

    It is a matter of manifest Catholic doctrine that the episcopate
    of the local Church of Rome and the visible primacy of jurisdiction
    over the universal Church militant are not actually two episcopates,
    but constitute only one episcopal function. Today, unfortunately,
    we are prone to imagine that the headship of the Christian com-
    munity in the city on the Tiber is something hardly more than
    incidental to the Sovereign Pontificate. Indicative of this tendency
    is the declaration of a recent and well-written book about the Holy
    Year, a statement to the effect that “One of the Holy Father’s titles
    is Bishop of Rome.’’%®

    Such a statement is not erroneous, but it might well be con-
    sidered somewhat misleading. “Bishop of Rome” is not merely
    one of the titles of the Holy Father, it is actually the name of the
    office which constitutes him as St. Peter’s successor and as the
    Vicar of Christ on earth. And, when the same volume speaks
    of “the return of the Apostolic See to Rome,”*? with reference to
    the end of the residence of the Popes in Avignon, it is using a
    definitely bad terminology. The Apostolic See, the cathedra Petri,
    never left the Eternal City. The men who ruled the Church from
    Avignon were just as truly the Bishops of Rome as any others


    38 DB, 1839.

    39 Cf, Fenichell and Andrews, The Vatican and Holy Year (New York:
    Halcyon House, 1950), p. 89.

    49 Thid., p. 4.


    464 THE AMERICAN ECCLESIASTICAL REVIEW


    among the successors of St. Peter. It is precisely by reason of
    the inseparable residence within it of the Cathedra Petri that the
    local Church of Rome possesses its extraordinary privileges and
    charisms within the Church militant.

    JosEPpH CLIFFORD FENTON
    The Catholic University of America
    Washington, D. C.




    I hold it true, whate'er befall;
    I feel it, when I sorrow most;
    'Tis better to have loved and lost
    Than never to have loved at all.
    (In Memoriam A. H. H., 27.13-17 Alfred, Lord Tennyson)

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
    « Reply #42 on: September 18, 2023, 03:09:05 PM »
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    What exactly is the order being referred to? I'm really unclear on this. There are two statements in the text that could be described as being an order, and they are:

    and


    So if Rome doesn't convert after the publication of this order (within 69 weeks of the publication), the city will be destroyed.

    Is this a translation problem? Can the word being used as "order" simply mean a message from someone in authority, and thus refer to the secret as a whole?

    The bolded part below contains "the order":

    Next, we raised our eyes to Our Lady who said to us: You saw the apostasy in the Church; this letter can be opened by the holy Father, but it must be announced after Pius XII and before 1960.

    So "the order" is that the contents of the letter must be announced after Pius XII and before 1960.

    And the reason that the timing is so important is that the "69 weeks" starts with the Feast of Weeks in 1959.

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
    « Reply #43 on: September 18, 2023, 03:34:53 PM »
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  • "And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen; and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every unclean spirit, and the hold of every unclean and hateful bird."   (Apoc. 18:2)  

    I agree with the timeline as given by Lad, as it seems that everything points toward 2028-30; my point is, what the bishops have allowed to happen to the Church is a sin  more grave, more heinous, than even the sin of the Jews, when the Sanhedrin put Christ to death.  So why shouldn't Rome be utterly destroyed?  If the above quote refers to Rome, then absolutely Rome will be destroyed.  Verse 10 says, "For in one hour is thy judgment come."  This Babylon could be "Jerusalem," but there are some prophecies which suggest that the last pope Peter will move his See from Rome to Jerusalem.  
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The TIA 3rd Secret of Fatima
    « Reply #44 on: September 18, 2023, 03:42:30 PM »
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  • The bolded part below contains "the order":

    Next, we raised our eyes to Our Lady who said to us: You saw the apostasy in the Church; this letter can be opened by the holy Father, but it must be announced after Pius XII and before 1960.

    So "the order" is that the contents of the letter must be announced after Pius XII and before 1960.

    And the reason that the timing is so important is that the "69 weeks" starts with the Feast of Weeks in 1959.

    All signs point to Roncalli et al.  But this phrase is a bit curious.  I got the impression it means that a Pope could in fact release the Secret at any time, but that, once Pius XII died, it should be released directly by Sister Lucia before 1960.