I have been saying this for ages chap!
Do look at my past thread on this and ping me a message so I can send you more
Saying what? That +de Castro Mayer broke from the TFP? That's ancient history.Yes, a lot of what we discuss on here is ancient history rehashed... like Vatican II, The Nine... not everyone was around when we were Lad :)
Saying what? That +de Castro Mayer broke from the TFP? That's ancient history.That the TFP is at odds with the Traditional Faith
Yes, a lot of what we discuss on here is ancient history rehashed... like Vatican II, The Nine... not everyone was around when we were Lad :)
That the TFP is at odds with the Traditional Faith
Yes, a lot of what we discuss on here is ancient history rehashed... like Vatican II, The Nine... not everyone was around when we were Lad :)
PV, Let me just ask... how many public Rosary rallies did the good Dom Castro lead?Thanks Incredulous.
And how many public Rosaries... in his memory.. are being prayed today?
Lay Catholic Action (LCA) has been historically suppressed by misguided Churchmen and our Catholic enemies love it.
The Cristeros LCA's papal stand-down and their resulting slaughter, after they had the freemasonic Mexican government on their knees, is one example.
(https://florida.sspx.org/sites/sspx/files/news/cristeros_mexique_0.jpg)
The American LAC, Knights of Columbus, were the only ones who came to their defense.
And Dom Castro's clerical SSPX, let me ask you, where do we see them now?
Are they criticizing the Jєω anti-Pope Bergolio?
Like pope Bergy, they went along with the death vax and they don't criticize his public heresies and sacrileges at all.
No, the SSPX doesn't promote LCA, it is another competitor to their "We are Church" theme.
In fact, the SSPX has a substantial $ campaign going against the TFP, as evidenced by their bribe given to the corrupt Ordinary in Quito, Ecuador in 2019. Their purpose is to displace the TFP as caretakers of the Statue of Our Lady of Good Success and from the Conceptionist convent.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1164/7336/files/conceptionist-convent-01_c201e422-c10a-41ab-a832-26acd93df75d_large.jpg?5775993621205016476)
In 2023, it's the TFP, not the SSPX that organized and materially supported over 22,000 public Rosaries across America.
It's the TFP, not the SSPX who is criticizing Bergolio and his phoney synod.
And it's the TFP LAC who continues to stand and fight against the revolution; for the restoration of the authentic Catholic and for the Reign of Mary.
Viva Cristo Rey!
Thanks Incredulous.
I don't disagree with most of what you say. Lay Catholic action is extremely important, and this is no doubt where the TFP excels.
We agree on the scandalous new orientation of the neo-SSPX.
However, it is not true to say that they do not encourage lay Catholic action. I don't know what the situation is where you are, but in France in particular, through their massive youth movement for example (MJCF), there is very admirable activity on this front.
The evil actions of one group doesn't make another group right. Nor do the good actions of a group guarantee their Catholicity or their correct orientation in other respects.
I wasn't so much meaning to run down the TFP as to record the history.
Do you disagree with Dom Antonio?
I didn't mean to give the impression I am French, Incred, I'm Aussie! But I've visited a few times and had some friends in the MJCF and they are extremely apostolic, it has been a great success and brought many people into the Faith and produced many vocations. Glad to hear you have had good experiences with the TFP. Do you know which clergy they are supported by per chance? All good organised LCA should be under the supervision of the Church, it is like an extension of the mission of the Church. The Pope sends the bishops, the priests cooperate with them in their mission, and the lay folk cooperate with the priests in their turn...
And of the all the extensive Catholic literature the TFP publishes and distributes, it seems to fit the trad specs.Sounds like a description of controlled opposition.
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what remains of the TFP in places like the U.S. are not anti-clerical at all.TFP is controlled opposition. If short on time, read this short excerpt from a former member of TFP
| TFP: A DANGEROUS CULT John T. Armour I WAS A MEMBER of the American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property (TFP) from July 1980 until January 1981. I affiliated with the group after meeting with a TFP sympathizer in my home state of California. As a member, I lived at "the TFP seat" in Mount Kisco, New York, where I received the training and indoctrination that all members are given. I consider myself very fortunate to have been convinced by some good friends to separate from this group. Looking back, I can now see that the TFP is a dangerous personality cult whose purpose is the glorification of its Brazilian founder, Dr. Plinio Corea de Olivera. Many highly idealistic and religiously motivated young men have been captivated by its persuasive program. The appeals to moral, dogmatic and liturgical tradition which are so refreshing in this age of turmoil are, in my opinion, simply a means to lure individuals into the cult. During the period of training which I received, I was taught: * Dr. Plinio will never die. When his mission on earth is fulfilled, he will walk into an earthly paradise and then ascend into heaven. * Dr. Plinio's mission is to defeat "the revolution," the Communistic and/or demonic forces which are corrupting the human race. He is the "pilgrim of justice" sent by God for this purpose. * Next to the Blessed Virgin Mary, Dr. Plinio is most loved by God. Hence, St. Michael the Archangel is his own personal guardian angel. * Dr. Plinio has the power to read a man's soul in order to determine if he possesses "Tau," the vocation and quality to fight the revolution. He is even supposed to be able to make this determination from viewing a photograph. "Tau" can be found only in males. * Members of the TFP are required to pledge their allegiance to Dr. Plinio. They make a consecration of slavery to the Blessed Mother and to Dr. Plinio. So highly regarded is Dr. Plinio that we were encouraged to kiss one of his hats that had come into our possession. And we kept a special room set aside for him where we had a special bed raised on a platform above the floor. When I first arrived at TFP headquarters in New York, the leaders convinced me that the group was not a cult. They asked me what I had heard about the group and, after correcting minor mistaken notions I had, and after I had assured myself that I was not getting into something I would later regret being a part of, I became a member. Right away, a man was assigned to watch over me, answer my questions and keep me from knowing too much until they were sure of me. He even told me what to write in my letter to my parents. Those of us whose parents did not agree with the TFP soon found ourselves referring to our mothers and fathers as the "fountain of my revolution" (FMR). The inference was that each of us had a trace of the revolution in him, and it had been obtained as a result of the corruption and leniency of our parents. We were convinced to reject and ignore any advice from them, to see this corruption in all our family members, and to treat them accordingly. In time, I grew to despise my family. On one occasion when I was being encouraged in this attitude, I told the leaders that I had caused my mother to cry when I had talked with her by telephone. The leaders actually laughed. But, at the same time, we were urged to convince our parents that they should be proud of us because we were clean-cut gentlemen who were doing God's work. It may seem odd that a group such as the TFP could attract and hold anyone's confidence and loyalty. But the appeal of spirituality was very strong. We all knew that something was wrong both in the world and in the Church. Here was a dedicated group living an exemplary semi-monastic life, ostensibly formed to fight the decay we knew existed. And we were young and inexperienced. I was actually convinced that I was in the Blessed Mother's special army. The religious overtones were very heavy. We were encouraged to receive Holy Communion daily in the TFP Chapel. That it was distributed to us by a layman who was one of our own was done only out of supposed need. That need, of course, served to provide more evidence of the spread of the revolution. (A large number of hosts were consecrated three or four times a year by a visiting priest from Canada. He left them in our Chapel tabernacle.) The converted mansion where about sixty of us lived was full of holy pictures, statues and other religious articles. We were required to pray all fifteen decades of the Rosary daily, and meditation was encouraged. Each evening, after dinner, instruction from Dr. Plinio was given to all. Most often, this instruction came via recordings; sometimes it was a printed message that was read. All messages were in the Portuguese language which was translated into English by one of the leaders. We were led to believe that, if we left the TFP, Our Lady would chastise us because She did not want anyone to leave Her army. Many tales of terrible deaths suffered by those who left were recounted. We actually knew a Brazilian member who had been transferred to the United States, but who left the organization to get married. When he contracted a bone disease which killed him, many were pleased to learn that such justice had been delivered to a turncoat. The atmosphere cultivated within this group is one which holds that the entire world is corrupt and only the TFP has escaped the corruption. Even traditional Catholics, such as Archbishop Lefebvre and his followers, are scorned—though never publicly. Very few members ever attend Mass on Sundays, not because of any inability to locate a Tridentine Mass chapel, but because most do not want to go. A few do attend Mass at a nearby Byzantine Catholic Church. Members of the TFP derisively refer to faithful Catholics who do attend the Tridentine Mass as "trads." I was mocked one Sunday for reading the Mass to myself out of a missal. TFP leaders even joke about "trad" priests saying on one occasion that they would like to have one kept in the basement to be brought out when needed. It is my hope that no one will accept the TFP at face value. I believe the group to be a dangerous cult which does harm to those within its web, and to the Catholic Church which I thought I was serving while I was with it. |
| http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles (http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles) |
Very few members ever attend Mass on Sundays, not because of any inability to locate a Tridentine Mass chapel, but because most do not want to go. A few do attend Mass at a nearby Byzantine Catholic Church. Members of the TFP derisively refer to faithful Catholics who do attend the Tridentine Mass as "trads." I was mocked one Sunday for reading the Mass to myself out of a missal. TFP leaders even joke about "trad" priests saying on one occasion that they would like to have one kept in the basement to be brought out when needed.
Sounds like a description of controlled opposition.Thank you for this information, Cera!
Let's not forget that TFP, along with the founder of offshoot TIA, were outed by a whistleblower as a secret society that worshipped Plinio de Oliveira and "consecrated" themselves to him in a mockery of the Catholic Consecration to Our Lady.The following article is taken from La Tradizione Cattolica , new series, Year IX, n. 38-1998, reproducing the deposition of the TFP affiliate Luiz Filipe de Freitas Guimaraes Abias, Curitiba, 24 August 1984.
The statement was registered in the Public Archives (August 24, 1984) and published on March 14, 1985 by "Folha da Manha"; Campos, RJ, Brazil.
I, the undersigned, Filipe de Freitas Guimarães Ablas, RG (General Register) 3,706,587, SP, unmarried, resident in Curitiba (Brazil), C.so Manoel Ribas, no. 418, I declare to be true that, when I belonged to the TFP, Brazilian Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property, in 1967 I entered a secret society of that association, called "Sacra Slavitù", also known by its members as "Always Living ".
The members of this secret society have made a consecration of themselves as slaves of Doctor Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira The existence of "Sacred Slavery" could not be communicated to the other members of the TFP,
The first twelve slaves were:1) Caio Vidigal Xavier da Silveira - slave Mário Pliny. 2) Eduardo Barros Brotero - Pliny Eduardo slave. 3) Luiz Nazareno d'Assunpção Filho - slave Pliny Luiz. 4) João Scognamiglio Clà Dias - slave Pliny Fernando. 5) Humberto Braccese - slave Plinio Cirineu. 6) Fernando Siqueira - Bernardo slave. 7) Carlos Espírito Hofmeister Poli -slave Plinio José. 8) Marcos Ribeiro Dantes - Pliny Paulo slave. 9) Mário Navarro da Costa - slave Pliny Elias. 10) Dom Bertrand de Orleans and Bragança - slave Plinio Miguel. 11) Atila Sinke Guimarães - slave Plinio Márcio. 12) Cosme Beccar Varella Hijo-slave Plinio Lázaro.
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Why is it that very few members of TFP attend Mass on Sunday? Do they believe that there's something wrong with the Old Mass? Or is it Roman Catholic Catholicism that they have a problem with?Excellent question Meg. The short answer is that they are not Catholic. As the letter of Bishop Meyer points out, they are an "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical, heretical sect."
Excellent question Meg. The short answer is that they are not Catholic. As the letter of Bishop Meyer points out, they are an "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical, heretical sect."Thank you Cera for this info
The TFP is clearly "controlled opposition" and has a known history of working with the CIA in South America. When I have time, I'll find the letter from TFP to the CIA, offering their services in gun-running and other aspects of warfare. TFP was also involved in cнιℓd тrαffιcking, not sex trafficking, but moving children to other nations to hide them from their parents (who trustingly perceived TFP as a trustworthy Lay Catholic Organization.)
Lower-level members believe they are part of a lay Catholic group. Only at the top level of the inner circle are the disgusting facts known. (Similar to how the Freemasons and other secret societies work).
As lower-level members work their way up, they discover that in TFP-land, Our Lord and Our Lady are insigificant. The ones who are worshipped are Plinio and his mother. They pray to him and to her. They make public confessions to him (a layperson). In a mockery of Our Lady, they say a litany to the mother of Plinio and also worship at her grave.
It's well worth anyone's time to go back read the thread. Of note, the founder of TIA (which pretends to have separated from TFP) is Plinio Slave # 11, docuмented by an eye-witness. Atila has never disavowed his worship of Plinio.
It is well-docuмented that John Hovart co-heads the U.S. TFP, while his sister Marian Hovart co-heads TIA. One former member of TFP says that the saying aroung the TFP office is "When TFP needs money, America Needs Fatima." ANF is a money-making project of TFP, posing as a Novus Ordo group.
Thank you Cera for this info
Why is it that very few members of TFP attend Mass on Sunday? Do they believe that there's something wrong with the Old Mass? Or is it Roman Catholic Catholicism that they have a problem with?
Excellent question Meg. The short answer is that they are not Catholic. As the letter of Bishop Meyer points out, they are an "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical, heretical sect."
The TFP is clearly "controlled opposition" and has a known history of working with the CIA in South America. When I have time, I'll find the letter from TFP to the CIA, offering their services in gun-running and other aspects of warfare. TFP was also involved in cнιℓd тrαffιcking, not sex trafficking, but moving children to other nations to hide them from their parents (who trustingly perceived TFP as a trustworthy Lay Catholic Organization.)
Lower-level members believe they are part of a lay Catholic group. Only at the top level of the inner circle are the disgusting facts known. (Similar to how the Freemasons and other secret societies work).
As lower-level members work their way up, they discover that in TFP-land, Our Lord and Our Lady are insigificant. The ones who are worshipped are Plinio and his mother. They pray to him and to her. They make public confessions to him (a layperson). In a mockery of Our Lady, they say a litany to the mother of Plinio and also worship at her grave.
It's well worth anyone's time to go back read the thread. Of note, the founder of TIA (which pretends to have separated from TFP) is Plinio Slave # 11, docuмented by an eye-witness. Atila has never disavowed his worship of Plinio.
It is well-docuмented that John Hovart co-heads the U.S. TFP, while his sister Marian Hovart co-heads TIA. One former member of TFP says that the saying aroung the TFP office is "When TFP needs money, America Needs Fatima." ANF is a money-making project of TFP, posing as a Novus Ordo group.
Don't trust her information. She tends to exaggerate and makes stuff up because she has a personal ax to grind against the TFP. Nobody "worships" Plinio. What's left of the TFP in the US anyway are not anti-clerical either.now changed to p. 37
You're a liar Cera.Please be specific. I am happy to back up every statement I've made. Name-calling gets us nowhere.
I have never seem a convincing answer to the accusations against Dr. Plinio and the TFP in general.You have a good point, which also explains why those who see themselves as their defenders so quickly sink into the bottomless pit of name-calling.
You have a good point, which also explains why those who see themselves as their defenders so quickly sink into the bottomless pit of name-calling.
Undecided, rational people who like to hear all sides would love to hear convincing responses.
John Lamb, a poster who was here on CI ages ago made a post which I am unable to find using the search box. He cited this from TIA, written by Atila:
"The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush."
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf
originally on p. 36
now changed to p. 37
Thank you Cera for exposing this.Did you read them on the TIA website?
I just read both pages 36 and 37. I find it extremely disturbing and cultish. Frankly, I don’t know how any Catholic could endorse such sycophantic behavior. I only read two pages and it made me want to vomit!
"Hail, Luigi Plinio Elia ( official name of Doctor Pliny in Sacred Slavery ), full of love and hate, the Most Holy Virgin is with you you are blessed among the faithful, and the fruit of your love and your hate, which is the Counter-ʀɛʋ ʟutι n, is blessed. O Sacral Luigi Plinio Elia, admirable and most Catholic father of the Counter-ʀɛʋ ʟutι n and the Kingdom of Mary, pray for us lame (capen gas) and sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen ".
Horrible.
But, pray tell, what in the world is "capen gas"?
Assuming that the writer meant to say "capon", the closest I can come to it is "chicken farts". (Yes, chickens do that. "Today I learned...".)
Must be some idiom in Portuguese.
Thank you Cera for exposing this.I agree with you, but I must confess that it's been a few years since I read it, primarily because I thought TIA would be so embarassed by the worship of Mr. Plinio de Oliveira (who never received a doctorate in any subject) that they would have removed it by now.
I just read both pages 36 and 37. I find it extremely disturbing and cultish. Frankly, I don’t know how any Catholic could endorse such sycophantic behavior. I only read two pages and it made me want to vomit!
"Capenga" is one single word. It means something or someone that falters, limps.Oh, okay, I thought it might be expressing the ultimate in humility, that the person uttering the "prayer" is willing to equate himself with something foul.
Oh, okay, I thought it might be expressing the ultimate in humility, that the person uttering the "prayer" is willing to equate himself with something foul.
Seriously. I had no idea how to dissect this.
Learn something new every day.