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Author Topic: The Synods Final Relatio: Adulterers in State of Grace!  (Read 3790 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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The Synods Final Relatio: Adulterers in State of Grace!
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2015, 11:58:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: Charlemagne
    I was actually very disappointed with the outcome. I was hoping Francis would declare sodomy and divorce to be morally acceptable so this false church would finally be exposed beyond any doubt. Alas, Francis and his minions are far too clever, so we get more ambiguity. Of course, Francis could declare in an interview that God doesn't even exist and the Novus Ordites wouldn't flinch because he didn't declare it ex cathedra.


    Recall that this is merely a report from the Synod to Francis.  Francis can come out with whatever he wants to regardless of what's in this Relatio.  What he comes up with remains to be seen.


    Offline Nishant

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    The Synods Final Relatio: Adulterers in State of Grace!
    « Reply #31 on: November 02, 2015, 02:07:12 AM »
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  • I've been trying to digest the news of what has gone on over the last couple of days. Yeah, the truly frightening part to me is that where allowance appears to be made for each individual conscience in future to determine whether or not that person's marriage was valid or null. Yeah, we all know how that's going to work out, a diabolical free-for-all where every person decides in "conscience" that their own marriage is annulled the moment the vows they took so solemnly before God's Altar begin to place real obligations on them. Human trickery cannot put asunder what God has made one flesh.

    To the point mentioned earlier, yes, there is of course a difference between a spouse who wickedly abandons his or her partner to commit adultery and the one who is unjustly abandoned by the other. The first is a selfish adulterer, pure and simple. The second has been sinned against, but must never on that account go outside the Church for a "divorce" or falsely try to obtain an annulment if it was evident the marriage was always valid. With confident trust in God, the offended partner must submit to His will and seek to live in accordance with it. Perhaps by God's mercy, the sinner will return penitent and contrite, and then reconciliation and return to married life may be possible. If not, to live chastely and faithfully carrying one's cross patiently and never letting the desire of another man or woman enter one's heart the rest of one's days is the way those in such situations must remain faithful to God and will merit great reward in paradise.

    It would be true mercy on the part of the Church, to the spouse now abandoned, to not only bar from Holy Communion but even excommunicate as an obstinate, public sinner the divorcee who willfully remarries without an annulment. That's how the Church our Mother traditionally penalized grave and obstinate sin, while showing mercy to faithful Catholics striving to live a holy and God-pleasing life. It's incredible how many nominal Catholics think they can use some creative legal fiction to argue a marital bond just never existed even after many years and, not infrequently, some children, together. Were they, then, born of fornication? The lax policies and skyrocketing rates of annulments even in the US alone after Vatican II have been amply docuмented. They should make clear that real, traditional reforms are necessary only in one area - that of ensuring annulments are never granted save in the rare and exceptional case where one partner, fully intending to cheat the other, manifestly never intended from the start to live together, but as a common perjurer impiously faked his or her vows before God. And if those who, contrary to good Catholic sense, have contracted civil marriages before the judgment even of lax ecclesiastical tribunals in our day, nonetheless want to receive Holy Communion, they still have, by God's mercy, in accordance with the Church's traditional discipline, to take the vow to live as "brother and sister" henceforth. I personally don't like that option very much, as I think it would be better for good Catholics to avoid even the appearance of scandal, but the Church has allowed it in the past, pre Vatican II.

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Recall that this is merely a report from the Synod to Francis.  Francis can come out with whatever he wants to regardless of what's in this Relatio.  What he comes up with remains to be seen.


    Yes, he's going to be writing an apostolic exhortation. I pray for the Pope, but I cannot agree with the majority attitude predominant on this thread. When I see people saying they're praying and hoping the synod approves divorcees receiving communion, I'm reminded of Pope Paul's Humanae Vitae when so many millions were saying the Catholic Church is finally going to surrender to the sɛҳuąƖ revolution and legitimize the bestial practice of onanism or contraception. A solitary Franciscan Friar, the only stigmatist-priest in the known history of the Church after St. Paul the Apostle, wrote to the Pope to tell the Holy Father he was offering all his sufferings for the Pope's sake, for the good of the Church. When the Pope asked for his opinion on the docuмent just before it was published, the Saint replied after reading it, "Publish it right away. Publish it as it is". History turned out differently than the liberals would have wished. Better that the liberals revolt, as they're already planning to do if they don't get what they want (cf. The heretics in Germany saying "we're not a Roman subsidiary"), than implausible sedevacantist scenarios come to pass. [Frankly, such a travesty would not yield the hoped-for millions of conversions to sedevacantism, but would rather, if anything, result in significant lapses to the Greek schism of Michael Caerularius, (or "Orthodoxy" falsely so called); especially because the schismatic Greek Church first compromised on this matter of divorce and remmariage several centuries ago, under the Caesaropapist influences of the Byzantine emperor to which it had always yielded in craven subjection.) Faithful traditional Catholics today should not give into the despair of sedevacantism or the schism of 'Orthodoxy' hoping Rome will legitimize divorce and remarriage in our day but follow the example of St. Padre Pio.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Nishant

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    The Synods Final Relatio: Adulterers in State of Grace!
    « Reply #33 on: November 02, 2015, 05:38:49 AM »
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  • Scalfari is just being irresponsible again, the Pope said nothing of the sort - the Holy Father's mistake is that he should have stopped these interviews by now,

    "The Vatican has said that an interview which quotes the Pope as saying that “all divorced who ask will be admitted” to Communion is “in no way reliable” and “cannot be considered as the Pope’s thinking”.

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/11/02/italian-newspaper-pope-says-all-divorced-who-ask-will-be-admitted-to-communion/

    Kudos to all the good Catholics worldwide who prayed and fought for this year's synod to be better than the last. Those who think, apparently, that we who by God's grace know and believe the truth all should have sat back and done nothing are objectively on the wrong side in this fight. As Cardinal Pell notes,

    "    the final version is almost a miracle if compared with the draft: “The Synod itself is much, much better than the worst we have feared.” “There is nothing there endorsing Communion for the divorced and remarried. There is nothing there endorsing a penitential process. There is nothing there that is saying ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ activity is justified.”'

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/synod-final-docuмent-received-strong-approval-from-faithful-bishops-but-the
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline clare

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    The Synods Final Relatio: Adulterers in State of Grace!
    « Reply #34 on: November 02, 2015, 05:59:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    ... They should make clear that real, traditional reforms are necessary only in one area - that of ensuring annulments are never granted save in the rare and exceptional case where one partner, fully intending to cheat the other, manifestly never intended from the start to live together, but as a common perjurer impiously faked his or her vows before God....

    What about cases (may not happen much nowadays, but not inconceivable) where both parties are pressured to marry by parents, say?


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    The Synods Final Relatio: Adulterers in State of Grace!
    « Reply #35 on: November 02, 2015, 02:02:27 PM »
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  • New Catholic (of Rorate Caeli) says:

    Quote
    Yes, he said it over the phone to his favorite journalist, Italian editor Eugenio Scalfari of La Repubblica (the Pope's favorite newspaper), in a conversation on October 28, revealed by the latter in an editorial published this Sunday.

    There is no reason to doubt its general accuracy. We are way past the time of doubting the general accuracy of the Scalfari quotes. Not now, that the papal interviews to Scalfari have been published on the Vatican website, that they have been occasionally published by the Vatican publishing house (LEV) itself - for instance, as part of the book to the right.

    It was a direct quote by Scalfari, as the Pope explained to his dear Atheist friend what the Synod had decided (in fact as an answer to another editorial on the Synod Scalfari had published in Repubblica).


    Nishant, are you seriously going to calumniate Scalfari?  Not even Francis would support you!

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    The Synods Final Relatio: Adulterers in State of Grace!
    « Reply #36 on: November 02, 2015, 02:25:01 PM »
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  • Francis continues to use Scalfari as a platform despite Lombardi saying that there have been misquotes in the past.  What does that tell you?  Obviously, it is a way to give Francis plausible deniability.  Any time the uproar gets to be too intense they can say it is a misquote and Scalfari won't object because he will continue to get access to Francis.  A very nice quid pro quo.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    The Synods Final Relatio: Adulterers in State of Grace!
    « Reply #37 on: November 02, 2015, 04:41:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    Scalfari is just being irresponsible again, the Pope said nothing of the sort - the Holy Father's mistake is that he should have stopped these interviews by now,

    "The Vatican has said that an interview which quotes the Pope as saying that “all divorced who ask will be admitted” to Communion is “in no way reliable” and “cannot be considered as the Pope’s thinking”.

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/11/02/italian-newspaper-pope-says-all-divorced-who-ask-will-be-admitted-to-communion/



    Well, duh, if that's what "the Vatican" says then it must be so!  Nishant, are you sure you're not a Novus Ordite?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Nishant

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    The Synods Final Relatio: Adulterers in State of Grace!
    « Reply #38 on: November 02, 2015, 10:24:40 PM »
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  • You're better than this, 2Vermont. Your emotion is clouding your judgment. Since you made this about me and asked, I will answer you briefly - No, I'm a traditional Catholic who attends the SSPX currently. Beside the SSPX, I would attend only the FSSP, which also offers the true Mass. I believe in and advocate priests offering, and laity attending, the true Mass exclusively, but that doesn't mean I have given up on the mainstream Church, or the Pope and the Bishops. I have not. I believe - I know you disagree - that the best hope for the Church, humanly speaking, still remains a Tradition-leaning prelate like Burke being elected to the Papacy after Francis, I intend to pray and work for that. Beside SSPX Catholics, many of my good friends are Indultarians. If you really wish it, I can give you the name and the number of my SSPX priest privately to confirm my personal information. Nishant is also my real name, while your forum handle is of course not your name. I have never asked for it, nor complained about your relative anonymity. Xavier is my middle name. As far as I recall, I have never asked you an insulting question either - despite our disagreements mostly on sedevacantism - nor remember insulting you in any other way, unlike other posters here who did before you left. Anyway, I'll say no more.

    CM, right now, it's Lombardi's word against Scalfari's. Of the two, Scalfari has a less reliable record in accurately relating what others are supposed to have said. I agree its the height of irresponsibility for these interviews to be continued, but the private allegation of one person with a known vendetta against the Church is not enough to conclude that the Pope said that all the divorced and remarried who wish will be admitted to Communion.

    And Clare, well, difficult to say, I'm not sure if I understand you perfectly. I agree consent should be free and not forced (e.g. if one party forces the other, by threats or the like, to simulate consent, then we have a different scenario altogether) wouldn't it still constitute perjury if, despite parental pressure or personal reservations, they still went ahead, made their vows and, to all appearances, were married without really or fully intending to live together forever?
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline clare

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    The Synods Final Relatio: Adulterers in State of Grace!
    « Reply #39 on: November 03, 2015, 01:33:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    And Clare, well, difficult to say, I'm not sure if I understand you perfectly. I agree consent should be free and not forced (e.g. if one party forces the other, by threats or the like, to simulate consent, then we have a different scenario altogether) wouldn't it still constitute perjury if, despite parental pressure or personal reservations, they still went ahead, made their vows and, to all appearances, were married without really or fully intending to live together forever?

    I was just thinking of a situation where neither party would be the main culprit and deserving of some penalty like excommunication.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    The Synods Final Relatio: Adulterers in State of Grace!
    « Reply #40 on: November 03, 2015, 01:51:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria

    Francis continues to use Scalfari as a platform despite Lombardi saying that there have been misquotes in the past.  What does that tell you?  Obviously, it is a way to give Francis plausible deniability.  Any time the uproar gets to be too intense they can say it is a misquote and Scalfari won't object because he will continue to get access to Francis.  A very nice quid pro quo.


    Very nice, indeed.  I do think that's the best example I've ever seen of quid pro quo.

    Thank you, Clemens Maria, for pointing that out!

    .
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    The Synods Final Relatio: Adulterers in State of Grace!
    « Reply #41 on: November 03, 2015, 04:13:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    You're better than this, 2Vermont. Your emotion is clouding your judgment. Since you made this about me and asked, I will answer you briefly - No, I'm a traditional Catholic who attends the SSPX currently. Beside the SSPX, I would attend only the FSSP, which also offers the true Mass. I believe in and advocate priests offering, and laity attending, the true Mass exclusively, but that doesn't mean I have given up on the mainstream Church, or the Pope and the Bishops. I have not. I believe - I know you disagree - that the best hope for the Church, humanly speaking, still remains a Tradition-leaning prelate like Burke being elected to the Papacy after Francis, I intend to pray and work for that. Beside SSPX Catholics, many of my good friends are Indultarians. If you really wish it, I can give you the name and the number of my SSPX priest privately to confirm my personal information. Nishant is also my real name, while your forum handle is of course not your name. I have never asked for it, nor complained about your relative anonymity. Xavier is my middle name. As far as I recall, I have never asked you an insulting question either - despite our disagreements mostly on sedevacantism - nor remember insulting you in any other way, unlike other posters here who did before you left. Anyway, I'll say no more.



    Your wishful thinking (and I suspect the wishful thinking of your indult friends) is clouding your judgment. Your immediate sigh of relief because the Vatican denied Scalfari's remarks is what Novus Ordites do, not Catholics who are well aware of what the Vatican is capable of doing.  Quite honestly, I thought you were better than that.  Your explanation doesn't change my opinion of your reaction to the Vatican.  If I saw the post without your name, I would have thought poche had written it.  It is naïve at best.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)