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Author Topic: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...  (Read 1505 times)

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Offline rowenwdse

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The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
« on: November 20, 2022, 03:16:38 PM »
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  • My wife and I have thought a great deal on this topic over the years. The State of the Church can be summarized in this 2 Page PDF:

    Please Click Here - https://mothermary.website/The-Resurrection-of-Jesus-and-Our-Times-2.pdf

    Sincerely and Kind Regards in +J M J,
    Roger Owen


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
    « Reply #1 on: November 20, 2022, 03:53:14 PM »
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  • My wife and I have thought a great deal on this topic over the years. The State of the Church can be summarized in this 2 Page PDF:

    Please Click Here - https://mothermary.website/The-Resurrection-of-Jesus-and-Our-Times-2.pdf

    Sincerely and Kind Regards in +J M J,
    Roger Owen
    Hi Roger,

    For some reason the link didn't work.

    How has your health been?  Did you find ever find out a job situation that you are happier with?

    Hope that you and your family are well!  
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
    « Reply #2 on: November 20, 2022, 03:57:27 PM »
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  • I think you need to redo the link, as it reads “this is how mandy an i”
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Emile

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    Re: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
    « Reply #3 on: November 20, 2022, 04:04:02 PM »
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  • Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer

    Offline rowenwdse

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    Re: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
    « Reply #4 on: November 28, 2022, 08:23:14 PM »
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  • Attached is a PDF about the Current State of the Church - Please let me know if it makes sense and also if anything in it does not make sense - as I think it is good for us to have an understanding about what the Catholic Church is going through during these times.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
    « Reply #5 on: November 29, 2022, 07:10:13 AM »
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  • Hi, rowenwdse. Since you invited and welcomed them, I'll give you my thoughts.

    I do not think it makes sense: I think you chase a chimera. Our Lord's Resurrection is a prefigurement of the resurrection of our bodies in the new creation. All of the saints - those whose bodies are dead in the earth at the moment, and those who have not yet died on earth - will join in this. It is not a resurrection of the Church in its earthly form and old habit.

    You can see in the Protestants different eschatological views: Amillenial, Postmillenial, Preterist, etc. You see a similar disparate understanding among Catholics regarding how the end times will play out. Some believe in an earthly "regeneration" of the Church under a true pope, and a coming "golden age" on earth before the return of Christ; some, like me, believe there will not be such, but that we await the return of the Lord and the resurrection of the saints into the new heaven, new earth.

    But the Church has not pronounced upon the "great apostasy" or fleshed these things out, so I do not impugn your view while rejecting it; I merely give my reasons why I disagree and why it doesn't make sense, as you queried if it does.

    Many of us here believe the Conciliar Church and Vatican II is the "great apostasy" of 2 Thessalonians 2. How does the "great apostasy" end? I do not believe St. Paul here speaks of a restoration under a true pope, but of the return of Our Lord in fiery judgment, and the general resurrection unto the new heaven and new earth:


    Quote
    2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

    [1] And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him: [2] That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, [4] Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. [5] Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    [6] And now you know what withholdeth, that he may be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him, [9] Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, [10] And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: [11] That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity. [12] But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth: [13] Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [14] Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. [15] Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace, [16] Exhort your hearts, and confirm you in every good work and word.


    This will end with the "brightness of his coming." It is his Second Coming in judgment of this world and the final victory, the eternal age of the new earth and new heavens, of the descending of the heavenly Jerusalem of Apoc 21, when "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away."

    I believe my view consistent with other Scriptures on the subject:


    Quote
    Matthew 24

    [21] For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. [22] And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened. [23] Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. [24] For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. [25] Behold I have told it to you, beforehand.

    [26] If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not. [27] For as lightning cometh out of the east, and appeareth even into the west: so shall the coming of the Son of man be. [28] Wheresoever the body shall be, there shall the eagles also be gathered together. [29] And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.



    [31] And he shall send his angels with a trumpet, and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them. [32] And from the fig tree learn a parable: When the branch thereof is now tender, and the leaves come forth, you know that summer is nigh.  [33] So you also, when you shall see all these things, know ye that it is nigh, even at the doors. [34] Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. [35] Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass.

    [36] But of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone. [37] And as in the days of Noe, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [38] For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, even till that day in which Noe entered into the ark, [39] And they knew not till the flood came, and took them all away; so also shall the coming of the Son of man be. [40] Then two shall be in the field: one shall be taken, and one shall be left.

    [41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill: one shall be taken, and one shall be left. [42] Watch ye therefore, because ye know not what hour your Lord will come. [43] But know this ye, that if the goodman of the house knew at what hour the thief would come, he would certainly watch, and would not suffer his house to be broken open. [44] Wherefore be you also ready, because at what hour you know not the Son of man will come. [45] Who, thinkest thou, is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath appointed over his family, to give them meat in season.

    [46] Blessed is that servant, whom when his lord shall come he shall find so doing. [47] Amen I say to you, he shall place him over all his goods. [48] But if that evil servant shall say in his heart: My lord is long a coming: [49] And shall begin to strike his fellow servants, and shall eat and drink with drunkards: [50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day that he hopeth not, and at an hour that he knoweth not:

    [51] And shall separate him, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Our Lord returns with the sound of a "trumpet," the "last trumpet":


    Quote
    1 Corinthians 15

    [51] Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality. [54] And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory. [55] O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?


    St. John also spoke of the end of this "great apostasy" with Our Lord returning in fire in the final judgment and the end of this culmination of the last age of old earth:


    Quote
    Apocalypse 20

    [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. In these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ; and shall reign with him a thousand years. [7] And when the thousand years shall be finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go forth, and seduce the nations, which are over the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, and shall gather them together to battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [8] And they came upon the breadth of the earth, and encompassed the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. [9] And there came down fire from God out of heaven, and devoured them; and the devil, who seduced them, was cast into the pool of fire and brimstone, where both the beast [10] And the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    [11] And I saw a great white throne, and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was no place found for them. [12] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. [14] And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.


    This "great apostasy" of Satan's end time "loosing" (Apoc 20:7) will end in Christ's return in judgment of all the living and the dead, and the destruction of Satan, his minions, the "false prophet" and even death itself in a "pool of fire."

    You asked for "thoughts." I think you are looking back and projecting a hope into a future of what is the past. What remains is our bright hope, our ultimate hope, and the looked for descent of  the New Jerusalem in a new earth and new heaven. That will be the end of this "great apostasy," and the final end, of even death itself.

    A new heaven and a new earth.

    Maran-atha . . . come, O Lord.

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Sgt Rock USMC

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    Re: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
    « Reply #6 on: November 29, 2022, 12:41:43 PM »
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  • I think we have to be very particular when discussing the Church. 

    I understand a lot of Catholics embrace this idea of the Church suffering like our Lord did during His passion.  But it's just not true.

    The Catholic Church, the spotless Bride of Christ, can never be in need of restoration or regeneration.  She cannot, or will not ever endure any kind of suffering...she is incorrupt and perfect. 

    Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos
    “Therefore, it is obviously absurd and injurious to propose a certain ‘restoration and regeneration’ for her (the Church) as though necessary for her safety and growth, as if she could be considered subject to any failing health or dimming of mind or other misfortune.

    Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos
    “During the lapse of centuries, the mystical Spouse of Christ has never been contaminated, nor can she ever in the future be contaminated, as Cyprian bears witness: ‘The Bride of Christ cannot be made false to her Spouse: she is incorrupt and modest...”

    Pope Hadrian I, Second Council of Nicaea
    “… Christ our God, when He took for His Bride His Holy Catholic Church, having no blemish or wrinkle, promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, I am with you every day until the consummation of the world.”

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence
    “…the Spouse of Christ is uncontaminated and modest, knowing only one home, and she guards the sanctity of their marriage bed with chaste modesty.”

    Pope St. Siricius, epistle (1) Directa ad decessorem
    “And so He has wished the beauty of the Church, whose spouse He is, to radiate with the splendor of chastity, so that on the day of judgment, when He will have come again, He may be able to find her without spot or wrinkle [Eph. 5:27] as He instituted her through His apostle.”


    Once we understand the nature of the Catholic Church, spotless, incorrupt, perfect and free from all error, we can better understand what's truly happened over the last 70 years. 

    The state of the Catholic Church in our Current times is the same as it was when our Lord "instituted her through His apostle", and it will be so for eternity.  

    Quotes take from MHFM

    Offline Sgt Rock USMC

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    Re: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
    « Reply #7 on: November 29, 2022, 12:59:44 PM »
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  • rowenwdse, 

    I think you have a misunderstanding about the Soul of the Church...

    Per Pope Pius XII, Pope Leo XIII teaches that the Soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost:

    Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis
    “… Leo XIII, of immortal memory in the Encyclical, “Divinum illud,” [expressed it] in these words: ‘Let it suffice to state this, that, as Christ is the Head of the Church, the Holy Spirit is her soul.’”

    Maybe I've read you wrong, but when you write about the Church you seem to separate the soul from the body, as if the Church has separate parts.    

    The Church's body and soul make up an undivided unity:

    Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum 
    “For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ… From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error... It is assuredly impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that man should be a body alone or a soul alone.  The connection and union of both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature.  The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life.”


    Of course, if I'm wrong about your writings, please feel free to correct me.  




    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
    « Reply #8 on: November 29, 2022, 01:14:19 PM »
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  • I'm out of upthumbs for you but you're right on the money Sgt Rock!
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Emile

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    Re: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
    « Reply #9 on: November 30, 2022, 12:36:43 AM »
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  • I think we have to be very particular when discussing the Church. 

    I understand a lot of Catholics embrace this idea of the Church suffering like our Lord did during His passion.  But it's just not true.

    The Catholic Church, the spotless Bride of Christ, can never be in need of restoration or regeneration.  She cannot, or will not ever endure any kind of suffering...she is incorrupt and perfect. 
    :confused:

    Quote
    PP Pius XII
    Mystici Corporis


    3. From the outset it should be noted that the society established by the Redeemer of the human race [the Church] resembles its divine Founder who was persecuted, calumniated and tortured by those very men whom He had undertaken to save.

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12mysti.htm
    There are certainly erroneous understandings about the suffering of the Church, but to state, without qualification, that She "will not ever endure any kind of suffering" is not true either.
    Our Lord is fully God and fully man. He did not suffer in His Divinity, but rather, in His humanity. That suffering did not and could not affect His Divinity. His Church is similar; She can not be destroyed, or even truly injured, because of Her Divine constitution. But, just like our Lord in His passion, Her Divine character may be obscured for a time, save to those who look upon Her with the eye of faith.



    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer

    Offline Sgt Rock USMC

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    Re: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
    « Reply #10 on: November 30, 2022, 10:23:17 AM »
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  • There are certainly erroneous understandings about the suffering of the Church, but to state, without qualification, that She "will not ever endure any kind of suffering" is not true either.

    Without qualification...  Did you read the teachings from the Popes?

    But, just like our Lord in His passion, Her Divine character may be obscured for a time, save to those who look upon Her with the eye of faith.

    Are you suggesting our Lord's divinity was obscured for a time?

    Interestingly enough, when I pull up Pope Gregory's Encyclical Mirari Vos, from papalencyclicals.com, the following translation is used...

    Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos, #10
    Therefore, it is obviously absurd and injurious to propose a certain “restoration and regeneration” for her as though necessary for her safety and growth, as if she could be considered subject to defect or obscuration or other misfortune.

    If there is any obscuration, it is simply due to the bad will of the unbeliever...for they CHOOSE to obscure it from themselves.

    The Church will forever remain with "spot or wrinkle", free from error, and any type of misfortune for eternity.   




    Offline Sgt Rock USMC

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    Re: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
    « Reply #11 on: November 30, 2022, 10:45:20 AM »
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  • Without qualification...  Did you read the teachings from the Popes?

    Are you suggesting our Lord's divinity was obscured for a time?

    Interestingly enough, when I pull up Pope Gregory's Encyclical Mirari Vos, from papalencyclicals.com, the following translation is used...

    Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos, #10
    Therefore, it is obviously absurd and injurious to propose a certain “restoration and regeneration” for her as though necessary for her safety and growth, as if she could be considered subject to defect or obscuration or other misfortune.

    If there is any obscuration, it is simply due to the bad will of the unbeliever...for they CHOOSE to obscure it from themselves.

    The Church will forever remain with without "spot or wrinkle", free from error, and any type of misfortune for eternity. 
    Edit...

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
    « Reply #12 on: November 30, 2022, 11:25:52 AM »
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  • "Describing the Catholic Church as the Mystical Body of Christ, Pope Pius XII explained:

    It is the will of Jesus Christ that the whole body of the Church, no less than the individual members, should resemble Him. And we see this realized when, following in the footsteps of her Founder, the Church teaches, governs, and offers the divine Sacrifice. When she embraces the evangelical counsels she reflects the Redeemer's poverty, obedience, and virginal purity. Adorned with institutes of many different kinds as with so many precious Jєωels, she represents Christ deep in prayer on the mountain, or preaching to the people, or healing the sick and wounded and bringing sinners back to the path of virtue -- in a word, doing good to all. What wonder then, if, while on this earth she, like Christ, suffer persecutions, insults and sorrows.14"




    The Papacy and the Passion of the Church by Mario Derksen

    https://novusordowatch.org/wp-content/uploads/fatima-2016-papacy-passion-church-derksen.pdf
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Sgt Rock USMC

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    Re: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
    « Reply #13 on: November 30, 2022, 04:01:15 PM »
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  • "Describing the Catholic Church as the Mystical Body of Christ, Pope Pius XII explained:

    What wonder then, if, while on this earth she, like Christ, suffer persecutions, insults and sorrows.14"

    It would seem the good pope is merely speculating here...however, maybe he means suffer as having the patience and/or courage in bearing such things?

    Also, I'm not sure I understand what he means when he says, "...while on this earth..."

    In any case, Pope Leo XIII, quoting Saint Augustine, says the Church cannot even be shaken...

    Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cogitum
    Also Augustine says: “Unbelievers think that the Christian religion will last for a certain period in the world and will then disappear. But it will remain as long as the sun – as long as the sun rises and sets: that is, as long as the ages of time shall roll, the Church of God – the true body of Christ on earth – will not disappear” (In Psalm. lxx., n. 8). And in another place: “The Church will totter if its foundation shakes; but how can Christ be moved?…Christ remaining immovable, it (the Church), shall never be shaken. Where are they that say that the Church has disappeared from the world, when it cannot even be shaken?” (Enarratio in Psalm. ciii., sermo ii., n. 5).

    If the Church cannot even be shaken, what could She possibly suffer?

    Offline rowenwdse

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    Re: The State of the Church in Our Current Times...
    « Reply #14 on: December 01, 2022, 05:08:22 AM »
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  • Dear fellow members of Cath Info,

    I really do think that what I wrote is accurate for the reason that I prayed about it for years - and I believe it does make sense.

    Please see this URL website link:

    http://www.christorchaos.com/?q=content/our-divine-redeemer-has-entered-his-passion-0

    ...
    "Having entered into the Passion of the Divine Redeemer, a Passion that is being experienced mystically by the Church Militant on earth during this time of utter apostasy and betrayal..."

    I think that a problem with trying to prove one's point here is that it goes against a humble disposition and there is a certain Ill/Bad will that goes along with it - that destroys peace among those who are arguing.

    Glory to God in the highest: and on earth peace to men of good will. (Luke Chapter 2:14)
    Every good action begins with GOOD WILL and makes us friends with God and on our way to Heaven.


    And so it is also true that prideful actions are fueled by Ill/Bad WILL and take us away from God and ruin peace and just causes friction, stress and confusion among us.

    It is difficult to be 100% accurate in these details when we do not currently have a good hierarchy that corrects us and guides us.

    Sincerely and Kind Regards in +J M J,
    Roger
    (571) 319-6094