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Author Topic: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans  (Read 6326 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2023, 12:11:06 PM »
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    • Now compare Fr. Pagliarani's mealy-mouthed statement to this ...

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/vigano-on-same-sex-blessings/msg918210/
    Quote
    The delirious Declaration Fiducia Supplicans, recently published by the parody of the former Holy Office renamed the Dicastery, definitively pierces the veil of hypocrisy and deception of the Bergoglian Hierarchy, showing these false shepherds for what they really are: servants of Satan and his most zealous allies, beginning with the usurper who sits – an abomination of desolation – on the Throne of Peter.
    ...
    Bergoglio’s operation is an outlet of the Faith, where you can find everything from the rites of pre-1955 Holy Week to LGBTQ “Eucharists,” as long as nothing is called into question about his “pontificate.”
    ...
    The hallmark of the conciliar and synodal church, of this sect of rebels and perverts, is falsehood and hypocrisy. Its purpose is intrinsically evil, because it takes away God’s honor, exposes souls to the danger of damnation, prevents them from doing good, and encourages them to do evil. Those in the Bergoglian Church who continue to follow the doctrine and precepts of the Catholic Church are out of place and sooner or later will end up separating themselves from it or giving in.

    The Catholic Church is the only ark through which the Lord has ordained the salvation and sanctification of mankind. Wherever what appears to be the church acts and works for mankind’s damnation, it is not the Church, but rather her blasphemous counterfeit. The same is true of the Papacy, which Providence willed as a bond of Charity in Truth, and not as an instrument to divide, scandalize, and damn souls.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
    « Reply #46 on: December 21, 2023, 12:58:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on December 21, 2023, 11:51:29 AM
    What he wrote is as clear as day. I’d have no idea why you can’t understand it.

    Well, since you are a sedevacantist, and therefore vastly superior in intelligence when compared to us mere stupid goyim R&R's, then maybe you can explain it?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
    « Reply #47 on: December 21, 2023, 01:08:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on December 21, 2023, 11:58:42 AM
    A photo of the Heretic in Chief is so passe.  They should move on to this:

    Pope Francis Cardboard Cutout (lifesizecustomcutouts.com)

    Put one in the sanctuary.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
    « Reply #48 on: December 21, 2023, 01:09:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 21, 2023, 10:24:28 AM
    I have no idea of what you are talking about above. Can you re-phrase it?

    It's a commentary on the fact that R&R believe that paying lip service to a "Pope" and/or putting his picture up in the vestibule satisfies all obligations that the faithful have to obey a Pope and maintain ecclesiastical communion with him.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
    « Reply #49 on: December 21, 2023, 01:17:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 21, 2023, 01:09:54 PM
    It's a commentary on the fact that R&R believe that paying lip service to a "Pope" and/or putting his picture up in the vestibule satisfies all obligations that the faithful have to obey a Pope and maintain ecclesiastical communion with him.

    Okay. Thank you for explaining it.

    I don't think that the SSPX sees the situation as you do, even though they are obviously compromised, in that they do not follow the good example of their founder. I'm pretty sure that it was their founder who insisted on putting up photos of the Pope in chapels. I don't believe that the reason that +ABL wanted photos of the pope in chapels was for the reason you describe at all. +ABL was loyal to the Popes, but also resisted their errors, which is something that you believe to be untenable.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
    « Reply #50 on: December 21, 2023, 01:30:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 21, 2023, 01:17:37 PM
    Okay. Thank you for explaining it.

    I don't think that the SSPX sees the situation as you do, even though they are obviously compromised, in that they do not follow the good example of their founder. I'm pretty sure that it was their founder that insisted on putting up photos of the Pope in chapels. I don't believe that the reason that +ABL wanted photos of the pope in chapels was for the reason you describe at all. +ABL was loyal to the Popes, but also resisted their errors, which is something that you believe to be untenable.
    Meg, it seems he thinks that having a picture of the pope at SSPX chapels is lips service, but quoting Fr. Fenton's teaching that popes can never teach nor fall into heresy and can in no way harm the faithful, as they keep right on repeating that the pope is not the pope because he's a heretic, teaches heresy and harms the faithful.

    Since it's obvious he is very confused and obviously has no idea wth he is talking about, pay no attention to him saying a picture in the chapel is paying lip service to the pope.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
    « Reply #51 on: December 21, 2023, 03:39:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 21, 2023, 01:17:37 PM
    Okay. Thank you for explaining it.

    I don't think that the SSPX sees the situation as you do, even though they are obviously compromised, in that they do not follow the good example of their founder. I'm pretty sure that it was their founder who insisted on putting up photos of the Pope in chapels. I don't believe that the reason that +ABL wanted photos of the pope in chapels was for the reason you describe at all. +ABL was loyal to the Popes, but also resisted their errors, which is something that you believe to be untenable.

    I actually don't recall putting pictures of the V2 papal claimant in the vestibule to have been "a thing" during the lifetime of +Lefebvre.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
    « Reply #52 on: December 21, 2023, 03:42:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 21, 2023, 01:30:15 PM
    Meg, it seems he thinks that having a picture of the pope at SSPX chapels is lips service, but quoting Fr. Fenton's teaching that popes can never teach nor fall into heresy and can in no way harm the faithful, as they keep right on repeating that the pope is not the pope because he's a heretic, teaches heresy and harms the faithful.

    Since it's obvious he is very confused and obviously has no idea wth he is talking about, pay no attention to him saying a picture in the chapel is paying lip service to the pope.

    Stubborn, I'm not sure what it'll take to explain this.  We don't believe that a POPE can lead the faithful into error or promulgate for use by the faithful something that Father Wathen referred to as a "Great Sacrilege".  But, you see, the key thing you're missing is that we don't believe that these men were POPES.  You keep assuming (begging the question) that these men are legitimate Popes.

    And of course putting the Pope's picture up in the vestibule is nothing more than lip service.  Somehow you think you're faithful to the Pope by saying, "Yep.  He's the Pope." while on the other sides of your mouth having a chapel that's not under his authority, excoriating him for his heresies, and even when he teaches something true, completely ignoring him as if he doesn't exist.  It's a token without any reality behind it.  More than anything it's become a symbol of "We're not [evil] sedevacantists." than anything else, but it has no real meaning.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
    « Reply #53 on: December 21, 2023, 03:42:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 21, 2023, 03:39:13 PM
    I actually don't recall putting pictures of the V2 papal claimant in the vestibule to have been "a thing" during the lifetime of +Lefebvre.

    Selective memory? Were you affiliated with SSPX when +ABL was alive? How old would that make you?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
    « Reply #54 on: December 21, 2023, 03:46:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 21, 2023, 03:42:18 PM
    Selective memory? Were you affiliated with +ABL when he was alive? How old would that make you?

    Not selective memory, but it's possible that I did forget.  I'm 55, and went to Mass at SSPX for several years before +Lefebvre died, and I have no recollection of any pictures of Karol Wojtyla in the vestibules of the various chapels I attended (and I did attend more than one, due to travel back and forth between home and my university, and other places in between).
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
    « Reply #55 on: December 21, 2023, 04:20:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 21, 2023, 01:08:19 PM
    Put one in the sanctuary.
    Is there an emoji for running around screaming if that happens?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
    « Reply #56 on: December 22, 2023, 04:25:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 21, 2023, 03:42:00 PM
    Stubborn, I'm not sure what it'll take to explain this.  We don't believe that a POPE can lead the faithful into error or promulgate for use by the faithful something that Father Wathen referred to as a "Great Sacrilege".  But, you see, the key thing you're missing is that we don't believe that these men were POPES.  You keep assuming (begging the question) that these men are legitimate Popes.

    And of course putting the Pope's picture up in the vestibule is nothing more than lip service.  Somehow you think you're faithful to the Pope by saying, "Yep.  He's the Pope." while on the other sides of your mouth having a chapel that's not under his authority, excoriating him for his heresies, and even when he teaches something true, completely ignoring him as if he doesn't exist.  It's a token without any reality behind it.  More than anything it's become a symbol of "We're not [evil] sedevacantists." than anything else, but it has no real meaning.
    In the words of +ABL: "The truth is that the Pope, even though he is Pope, can err. Apart from cases where the Pope engages his infallibility, he can err. Today we see the Pope err and spread the error and even heresies. To denounce it is not a sign of sedevacantism, but of Catholicism." 

    This is pretty much where the situation begins and ends for all trads - except sedes.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
    « Reply #57 on: December 22, 2023, 04:57:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on December 21, 2023, 04:20:25 PM
    Is there an emoji for running around screaming if that happens?
    :laugh1: :laugh2:
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    Offline Marie Teresa

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    Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
    « Reply #58 on: December 22, 2023, 07:06:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on December 21, 2023, 04:20:25 PM

    Is there an emoji for running around screaming if that happens?
    Quote from: AMDGJMJ on December 22, 2023, 04:57:43 AM

    :laugh1: :laugh2:

    Would this do?  


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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The SSPX responds to Fiducia supplicans
    « Reply #59 on: December 22, 2023, 07:19:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 22, 2023, 04:25:33 AM
    In the words of +ABL: "The truth is that the Pope, even though he is Pope, can err. Apart from cases where the Pope engages his infallibility, he can err. Today we see the Pope err and spread the error and even heresies. To denounce it is not a sign of sedevacantism, but of Catholicism."

    This is pretty much where the situation begins and ends for all trads - except sedes.

    Selective quotation, as usual, from the early 1980s when he was trying to cut a deal with Wojtyla.  You deliberately ignore the quotes where he says that opposite and where he affirms that SVism is possible.  But that’s just because 1) you’re dishonest and 2) desperately need to find some rule of faith as a substitute for the Catholic Magisterium that you’ve discarded and thrown under the bus at the altar of the V2 Anti-popes.  Neo-SSPX also cherry-pick quotes from the early 1980s to back their assertion of being the “faithful heirs” of +Lefebvre.
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