Quote from: Matthew

The SSPX is part of that Church, and so it's the work of God.

A part of what church?  The conciliar church?  The church that hasn't validly ordained a priest since 1968?  The church that fakes masses all over the world (which is an inherently sacrilegious act) and further purports to handle our Lord so irreverently at those fake masses (further egregious sacrilege)?  The church that puts heretics, pagans, infidels, etc. error on the same level as herself?

And a part of that church why?  Because they begrudgingly said you can be?  If SSPX is Catholic, then IT IS the Church--not any of this "part of that Church" wishy-washiness.  No wonder SSPX is so eager to rush back in--they have the red-headed step-child syndrome.

Quote from: Matthew

Our Lord said to judge a tree by its fruits. The fruits of the SSPX have been salvation for many souls, vocations, sanctity of life, more Catholics living their Catholic Faith during the week, and many conversions.  The majority of evidence points to the SSPX being "of God".

I realize that you're trying to disassociate from it with this then & now dichotomy--and I am not saying that that is completely invalid.  But to some degree the SSPX has to own the good fruit and the bad fruit.  Seriously bad fruit (working to reunify with modernist Rome) is on the table a mere 40 some odd years in.  And the Resistwnce doesn't have much of a track record, but in its short history has Ambrose, Pablo, Pfeifferville, Mr. Kramer, Gajewski, and the nutbag from, was it Minnesota, who cooked up a bunch of lies on Pablo ( :roll-laugh1:  this stuff is just too good).

Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Williamson are heroes--saints--in my eyes.  And much saintly work has been accomplished via the SSPX.  But playing the judge by fruits game, you have to consider the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Quote from: Matthew

And the SSPX defended the Faith on a global scale, with chapels, seminaries, and priests all over the world. They had 500+ priests at their peak. The SSPX dwarfs any sedevacantist group in terms of priests, chapels, parishioners, or any other metric. So Catholics of good will have voted with their feet who they think is safer or more Catholic.

So were the many millions more Catholics who obeyed their Pontiff and remained in conciliardom out of that obedience--there were millions of good-will who thought they were right and doing Gods will by remaining where their Pontiff clearly was--mustn't they be correct because their numbers so overwhelmingly dwarf SSPX?

Quote from: Matthew

The SSPX has become the neo-SSPX now, and is collapsing before us. But at the same time, the true SSPX continues on in the form of the Resistance.

And what will the Resistance be in 45 years?  Is Bishop Williamson a much better leader than Archbishop Lefebvre?  What about Bishop/Pope Pfeiffer and King Gajewski?

Quote from: Matthew

So when I promote the "SSPX" I mean the SSPX before 2011 -- and after 2011, the Resistance.

And after 2051?

Quote from: Matthew

Sure, with human beings there are always bad apples. But you could say the same thing about the Catholic Church in general! There are always some bad fish caught in the net.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Quote from: Matthew

Sedevacantism, on the other hand, is simplistic, defeatist, and most Catholics (even good-willed Traditional ones) reject it. Many of them flirt/flirted with Sedevacantism, but they usually give it up and talk about it like a temptation or sin they fell into.

I suppose they can more easily conceive the unblemished Bride of Chrisf participating in Assissi than not having a Pope for an interval.  Not me.

Quote from: Matthew

How many good Traditional Catholic forums forbid Sedevacantists to participate, because of the noxiousness of their presence (with a few notable exceptions)? They only like to argue about the Pope question. They refuse to believe in any element of mystery in the Crisis in the Church. They want to understand it all with their puny, poorly educated human minds. Some of them have only been Traditional for a few years, or even a few months! And yet they'll happily throw the wisdom of wise priests and bishops right into the trash can.

"Refuse to believe in any element of mystery in the Crisis in the Church?"  So what is the biggest mystery that folks are "refusing to believe?"  We have a Pontiff who we must differentiate from and disobey?  Or Christ has permitted an extended interval of sedevacantism?

Quote from: Matthew

Again, I'll admit that it doesn't apply to *every* Sedevacantist, but it applies to far too many of them.

Mighty white of you to acknowledge that there may exist a couple of educated sedes who don't have puny brains.

Quote from: Matthew

After all, once you add "sedevacantist" to your name, you have to defend that difference by being obsessed with the issue. If your daily life or discourse were the same as a regular Traditional Catholic, then why the extra adjective "sedevacantist"?

That adjective stares at you in the mirror every day, imploring you to do something "different" than your fellow Traditional Catholics who aren't "sedevacantist". And far too many sedevacantists heed the call.

I don't add anything to my name--I am a simply Catholic.

---------------------

Sedes and jews hated by the world:

Quote from: Matthew

Their "universal unwelcomness" forces to mind the fate of the cursed Jews, forced to wander the earth without a home, since they rejected the Messiah they had been formed by God for centuries to recognize and accept. The Jews had been blessed so much, so highly favored, and they returned the favor by crucifying the Just One.

Sure, Our Lord said His followers would be hated.

But the Jews were also universally hated throughout Christendom during the Middle Ages. They were a persecuted people.

So which kind of persecution/unpopularity are the sedevacantists enduring today? The persecution endured by the just man, or the persecution endured by the wicked?

But what about Recognize & Resisters hated by the world:

Quote from: Matthew

The world hates Bishop Williamson (the Just) but it also hates Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dahmer (the wicked).

Aw shucks--hatred by the world doesn't mean anything after all:

Quote from: Matthew

So simply being "hated by the world" proves nothing about a person or group.

clemens maria - you, uttering the word pederasty?  Aren't you a disciple of fr. cekada?  As for those other small fry's of the sspx you mentioned, the snake does strike at our lady's heel.  And, it is "better to enter into heaven maimed or lame missing a hand or foot than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into everlasting fire".  The holy man Tobias was blinded with God's permission.  But, your case is much different.  

Quote from: PG

clemens maria - you, uttering the word pederasty?  Aren't you a disciple of fr. cekada?  As for those other small fry's of the sspx you mentioned, the snake does strike at our lady's heel.  And, it is "better to enter into heaven maimed or lame missing a hand or foot than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into everlasting fire".  The holy man Tobias was blinded with God's permission.  But, your case is much different.  

The OP is on whether SV is true or not so try to stay on topic and deal with facts rather than fall into the mistake that some fell into at the beginning claiming "I'm a follower of Paul" or "I'm a follower of Apollo" as if that mattered more than following and submitting to Christ and His True Vicars on earth while reject the vicars of Satan who pose as the Vicar of Christ.

Divine Law teaches that a public heretic cannot be Pope.

You do the math.  

Quote from: Meg

It wasn't me who raised the allegations. But you are implying that virtue is not a necessary quality in those leaders (bishops) of the traditional movement, whether they be SV or otherwise.

That's an interesting way to spin my last post.

Quote from: MyrnaM

Quote from: Meg

Quote from: Sbyvl

The personal virtues of Abp. Lefebvre and Bp. De Castro Mayer do not somehow prove the resistance position to be correct.

In contrast, the lack of personal virtue in Thuc and Schuckardt doesn't make the SV position incorrect, would you say?

Archbishop Thuc was a very holy person, you should look into this talk about him from a person very close to him.  Rev. Father Francis Miller, OFM:

Quote

Fr. Miller entered the Franciscan
Order at the recommendation of his
spiritual director Msgr. Hodgeson
in 1980. He was the first novice and
solemnly professed member of his
traditional Franciscan community.
When Archbishop Thuc joined the
household in 1982, Fr. Miller and one
other Brother were assigned to look
after the bishop’s needs and to assist
him. Currently the pastor of Christ
the King Church in Lafayette, Louisiana,
Father Francis will share with
us his recollections of the late Archbishop
Thuc.

If you want to talk about the late Archbishop Thuc, you should look into what he represented.  He has suffered much when he was trying to hold on to the Faith, and is truly a modern day Saint.  

As far as Schuckardt is concerned; SSPX has its own dirt to deal with right now, and also I am shocked to read that SSPX accepts annulments from the novus ordo.  That is not HOLY. I am sure any of you would be just a shocked to discover this out.  
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=41485&f=8&min=20&num=10
One of the reasons people left CMRI was because they could not get their anulment so perhaps they ran to SSPX.   There are other reasons also, just as people leave SSPX, that is a silly point to make, thinking SSPX is superior.  When Our Lord returns, He even mentioned there won't be numbers around holding the Faith.  So don't put too much into numbers.  

I don't know why God used Schuckardt to be His instrument in the finding of CMRI, just like I don't know why God picked Judas to be one of His Apostles.  CMRI has been truly blessed by God since Schuckardt left, we are starting new chapels North, South, East and West.  We are alive with vocations, both men and women enter our religious order.  

You will know them by their fruits, Our Lord said, and the fruits of CMRI have been good.  Our Bishop doesn't waste his time talking against other Traditional groups, nor their Bishops to the laity.  I am sure he has discussed issues at their priestly meetings behind closed doors. I wouldn't know, since I am not the fly on the wall. He does not go around writing papers against them nor making youtubes about the sins of other Traditionalist.  

The only reason people here WANT to see something bad about CMRI is because they don't understand the true meaing of charity and they make up lies.  Vengeance is mine so says Our Lord, BEWARE!  

Thanks, Myrna, for giving another perspective on Thuc. However, you still believe that God used Schuckardt who, by accounts here a very sinful (evil?) man, to found an group blessed by God. When has this happened elsewhere in the history of the Church?

Quote from: Croixalist

Wait a sec, who here is a supporter of Schuckardt? Should you feel obligated to defend his character as a SV? All theological discussion aside for a moment, who needs this guy around?

For your information he is not around, he has been judged by God already.  

In spite of his evil deeds, he did wake up a myriad of souls, he also caused a myriad of souls confusion and lose of Faith.   Who is denying that?  CMRI does not try to wiggle out of Schuckardt and that is what makes you so flaming mad.  You want to glory in the fact that CMRI make excuses for his evil behavior.  

It is more evil in the eyes of God to pretend that your pope is Catholic and admit he is a heretic on a public forum such as this:  that is tantamount of coming out and saying God has not kept His promise; the Church has failed.  Your kind boasts of belonging to the Church, but your can't belong to the One, True Church and the Evil, New Church which was spawn by Lucifer at the same time.  They even name their new telescope LUCIFER, which is operated by the Vatican Observatory located on Mount Graham in Arizona ...  as they wait for the aliens to save them.  Some religion you brag to be united too.  

Don't talk about Schuckardt sins till your camp gets their act together and figures out who they really are.  

One reason people are afraid of SV is because of human respect.  It is popular to belong to what the world sees as Catholic.  You know what God says about those who choose human respect over truth, if not, do some research.

The Chair of Peter is empty of a Catholic, face it!