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Quote from: Matthew

The SSPX is part of that Church, and so it's the work of God.

A part of what church?  The conciliar church?  The church that hasn't validly ordained a priest since 1968?  The church that fakes masses all over the world (which is an inherently sacrilegious act) and further purports to handle our Lord so irreverently at those fake masses (further egregious sacrilege)?  The church that puts heretics, pagans, infidels, etc. error on the same level as herself?

And a part of that church why?  Because they begrudgingly said you can be?  If SSPX is Catholic, then IT IS the Church--not any of this "part of that Church" wishy-washiness.  No wonder SSPX is so eager to rush back in--they have the red-headed step-child syndrome.

Quote from: Matthew

Our Lord said to judge a tree by its fruits. The fruits of the SSPX have been salvation for many souls, vocations, sanctity of life, more Catholics living their Catholic Faith during the week, and many conversions.  The majority of evidence points to the SSPX being "of God".

I realize that you're trying to disassociate from it with this then & now dichotomy--and I am not saying that that is completely invalid.  But to some degree the SSPX has to own the good fruit and the bad fruit.  Seriously bad fruit (working to reunify with modernist Rome) is on the table a mere 40 some odd years in.  And the Resistwnce doesn't have much of a track record, but in its short history has Ambrose, Pablo, Pfeifferville, Mr. Kramer, Gajewski, and the nutbag from, was it Minnesota, who cooked up a bunch of lies on Pablo ( :roll-laugh1:  this stuff is just too good).

Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Williamson are heroes--saints--in my eyes.  And much saintly work has been accomplished via the SSPX.  But playing the judge by fruits game, you have to consider the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Quote from: Matthew

And the SSPX defended the Faith on a global scale, with chapels, seminaries, and priests all over the world. They had 500+ priests at their peak. The SSPX dwarfs any sedevacantist group in terms of priests, chapels, parishioners, or any other metric. So Catholics of good will have voted with their feet who they think is safer or more Catholic.

So were the many millions more Catholics who obeyed their Pontiff and remained in conciliardom out of that obedience--there were millions of good-will who thought they were right and doing Gods will by remaining where their Pontiff clearly was--mustn't they be correct because their numbers so overwhelmingly dwarf SSPX?

Quote from: Matthew

The SSPX has become the neo-SSPX now, and is collapsing before us. But at the same time, the true SSPX continues on in the form of the Resistance.

And what will the Resistance be in 45 years?  Is Bishop Williamson a much better leader than Archbishop Lefebvre?  What about Bishop/Pope Pfeiffer and King Gajewski?

Quote from: Matthew

So when I promote the "SSPX" I mean the SSPX before 2011 -- and after 2011, the Resistance.

And after 2051?

Quote from: Matthew

Sure, with human beings there are always bad apples. But you could say the same thing about the Catholic Church in general! There are always some bad fish caught in the net.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Quote from: Matthew

Sedevacantism, on the other hand, is simplistic, defeatist, and most Catholics (even good-willed Traditional ones) reject it. Many of them flirt/flirted with Sedevacantism, but they usually give it up and talk about it like a temptation or sin they fell into.

I suppose they can more easily conceive the unblemished Bride of Chrisf participating in Assissi than not having a Pope for an interval.  Not me.

Quote from: Matthew

How many good Traditional Catholic forums forbid Sedevacantists to participate, because of the noxiousness of their presence (with a few notable exceptions)? They only like to argue about the Pope question. They refuse to believe in any element of mystery in the Crisis in the Church. They want to understand it all with their puny, poorly educated human minds. Some of them have only been Traditional for a few years, or even a few months! And yet they'll happily throw the wisdom of wise priests and bishops right into the trash can.

"Refuse to believe in any element of mystery in the Crisis in the Church?"  So what is the biggest mystery that folks are "refusing to believe?"  We have a Pontiff who we must differentiate from and disobey?  Or Christ has permitted an extended interval of sedevacantism?

Quote from: Matthew

Again, I'll admit that it doesn't apply to *every* Sedevacantist, but it applies to far too many of them.

Mighty white of you to acknowledge that there may exist a couple of educated sedes who don't have puny brains.

Quote from: Matthew

After all, once you add "sedevacantist" to your name, you have to defend that difference by being obsessed with the issue. If your daily life or discourse were the same as a regular Traditional Catholic, then why the extra adjective "sedevacantist"?

That adjective stares at you in the mirror every day, imploring you to do something "different" than your fellow Traditional Catholics who aren't "sedevacantist". And far too many sedevacantists heed the call.

I don't add anything to my name--I am a simply Catholic.

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Sedes and jews hated by the world:

Quote from: Matthew

Their "universal unwelcomness" forces to mind the fate of the cursed Jews, forced to wander the earth without a home, since they rejected the Messiah they had been formed by God for centuries to recognize and accept. The Jews had been blessed so much, so highly favored, and they returned the favor by crucifying the Just One.

Sure, Our Lord said His followers would be hated.

But the Jews were also universally hated throughout Christendom during the Middle Ages. They were a persecuted people.

So which kind of persecution/unpopularity are the sedevacantists enduring today? The persecution endured by the just man, or the persecution endured by the wicked?

But what about Recognize & Resisters hated by the world:

Quote from: Matthew

The world hates Bishop Williamson (the Just) but it also hates Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dahmer (the wicked).

Aw shucks--hatred by the world doesn't mean anything after all:

Quote from: Matthew

So simply being "hated by the world" proves nothing about a person or group.

clemens maria - you, uttering the word pederasty?  Aren't you a disciple of fr. cekada?  As for those other small fry's of the sspx you mentioned, the snake does strike at our lady's heel.  And, it is "better to enter into heaven maimed or lame missing a hand or foot than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into everlasting fire".  The holy man Tobias was blinded with God's permission.  But, your case is much different.  

Quote from: PG

clemens maria - you, uttering the word pederasty?  Aren't you a disciple of fr. cekada?  As for those other small fry's of the sspx you mentioned, the snake does strike at our lady's heel.  And, it is "better to enter into heaven maimed or lame missing a hand or foot than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into everlasting fire".  The holy man Tobias was blinded with God's permission.  But, your case is much different.  

The OP is on whether SV is true or not so try to stay on topic and deal with facts rather than fall into the mistake that some fell into at the beginning claiming "I'm a follower of Paul" or "I'm a follower of Apollo" as if that mattered more than following and submitting to Christ and His True Vicars on earth while reject the vicars of Satan who pose as the Vicar of Christ.

Divine Law teaches that a public heretic cannot be Pope.

You do the math.