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Author Topic: The Siri Thesis  (Read 9470 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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The Siri Thesis
« on: August 11, 2015, 10:56:49 AM »
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  • http://www.novusordowatch.org/sspx_dossier_sede.pdf

    18.  Next Fr. Boulet treats of the Siri thesis, a most interesting explanation of the origin of the crisis.

    Quote
    4.3.  The Case of Cardinal Siri: It is being argued by some Sedevacantists that some very
    serious defects affected the Conclaves that elected Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, then, consequently John- Paul I and John-Paul II.  It is being claimed that Cardinal Giuseppe Siri, the former Archbishop of Genoa, Italy was elected Pope in the 1958, 1963 conclaves, and possibly also in 1978.  Cardinal Siri was extremely popular in Italy, mostly for his strong social accomplishments in Genoa.  He was also considered as a strong conservative, even though he did not publicly stand in defence of Tradition during the Vatican II council.  So, apparently, Cardinal Siri had been ‘elected’ Pope at the conclave that followed the death of Pope Pius XII.  Some are going as far as telling us that he had accepted the election of his fellow cardinals, and had taken the name of Gregory XVII.  Shortly before such ‘election’ was to be made public to the world, a group of cardinals would have revolted against him, and forced him to renounce to the supreme pontificate.  Then, Cardinal Roncalli was chosen and appeared to the world as Pope John XXIII.  Some Sedevacantist pulled out a recent report from the FBI to prove such thesis.  They added on that ‘Pope Siri’ secretly appointed cardinals to succeed to him in the future.  Frankly, such theory doesn’t make sense, for a number of reasons.  First of all there is a Church law that binds under secrecy all the proceedings of a conclave, under the penalty of excommunication for whoever would break such seal. Even if Cardinal Siri was properly elected as a Pope, it is a matter of fact that he never showed it in public. He was among the cardinals that paid allegiance to both Popes John XXIII and Paul VI. After the 1958 and 1963 conclaves, he went back to his diocese of Genoa.  In 1969, though reluctantly, he adopted the Novus Ordo Missae. Meanwhile, a French priest, Father Guérin, had established a ‘conservative’ community of priests in Genoa. Back in the seventies, Father Guérin was living in Paris, France, where he used to say a weekly Novus Ordo Mass all in Latin, with biretta and incense, which I attended a couple of times. I know personally two members of Fr. Guérin’s community that have been ordained priests by Cardinal Siri. They have now an apostolate in France, and say the Novus Ordo Mass. Their ordination was held with the New Mass, though in a more conservative way. Finally, Cardinal Siri died in 1989. But, the most important reason why we must discard the “Pope Siri” theory is the fundamental principle that a peaceful acceptance of a Pope by the Universal Church is the infallible sign and effect of a valid election. All theologians agree on that point.
    Cardinal Billot says: “God may allow that a vacancy of the Apostolic See last for a while. He may also permit that some doubt be risen about the legitimacy of such or such election. However, God will never allow the whole Church to recognize as Pontiff someone who is not really and lawfully. Thus, as long as a Pope is accepted by the Church, and united with her like the head is united to the body, one can no longer raise any doubt about a possible defective election...For the universal acceptance of the Church heals in the root any vitiated election.


    a)  It is certainly granted that the acceptance by Cardinal Siri of the “reforms” of Vatican II is evidence that he was not a true Pope, even if he was somehow still a Catholic, which possibility I think we must grant.  But in any case, a doubtful Pope is no Pope.  

    b)  With respect to the alleged peaceful acceptance of the whole Church of Paul VI, however, let us
    review the comments and questions of Fr. Boulet’s master in these questions, Xavier da Silveira.

    Quote
    A more attentive examination of the question would reveal, nevertheless, that even on purely theoretical grounds, an important difficulty arises, which would consist in determining precisely what is the concept of pacific and universal acceptation by the Church.  For such acceptation to have been pacific and universal would it be enough that no Cardinal had contested the election?  Would it be enough that in a Council, for example, almost the totality of the Bishops had signed the acts, recognizing in this way, at least implicitly, that the Pope be the true one?  Would it be enough that no voice, or practically no voice had publicly given the cry of alert?  Or, on the contrary, would a certain very generalized, though not always well defined, distrust be sufficient to destroy the apparently pacific and universal character of the acceptance of the Pope?  And if this distrust became a suspicion in numerous spirits, a positive doubt in many, a certainty in some, would the aforementioned pacific and universal acceptance subsist?  And if such distrusts, suspicions, doubts and certainties cropped out with some frequency in conversations or private papers, or now and
    again in published writings, could one still classify as pacific and universal the acceptance of a Pope who was already a heretic on the occasion of his election by the Sacred College? [Da Silveira, op. cit]


    In the Church as in society generally, the following wisdom applies to the present situation.  “We
    must recognize the chief characteristic of the modern era – a permanent state of what I call violent
    peace .”  Admiral James D. Watkins, USN (Ret.), former Chief of Naval Operations.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    The Siri Thesis
    « Reply #1 on: August 14, 2015, 10:22:58 AM »
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  • I just want to add an another perspective in the SIRI theory.
    I believe that there is  convincing evidence that the Cardinal was
    elected Pope in 1958, 1963, and perhaps 1978.
    However a clue from his last interview in 1989 in which he was
    quoted that the Conclaves he participated in were highly political.
    meaning very little of the spiritual were involved. Many Cardinals
    had worldly views thanks to the advances of modernism.
    I believe that he did not challenged the results of the conclave. He
    believe it would cause serious harm to the Church and caused many
    Catholics to fall away. Because even in 1958 many first world
    Catholics were adopting secular views because of the widespread
    of availability of televisions, movies, and the forces of secularism.
    Also, it would have been a field day for the secular media.
    Also many of the sermons were becoming social gospels and
    these Priests were supporting leftist causes.
    I am sure that even his theologians may have advised him that
     the threats that caused him not ascending the Throne of Peter
    made the conclaves illegal.  It was his own decision for reasons
    stated above.
    Compared this to the 1960 elections.
    Richard Nixon could have challenged the results of 1960 and was
    advised to by his advisors because it was proven that ballots from  
    Cook county were  falsified because it came from voters already
    dead. A recount could have tipped Illinois into the Republican
    column and electing Nixon as President in 1960.
    Nixon decided himself not to challenged that election that landed
    JFK in the Whitehouse in 1960.
    He felt that it would caused much harm to the country.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    The Siri Thesis
    « Reply #2 on: August 14, 2015, 10:37:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: RomanCatholic1953
    I just want to add an another perspective in the SIRI theory.
    I believe that there is  convincing evidence that the Cardinal was
    elected Pope in 1958, 1963, and perhaps 1978.
    However a clue from his last interview in 1989 in which he was
    quoted that the Conclaves he participated in were highly political.
    meaning very little of the spiritual were involved. Many Cardinals
    had worldly views thanks to the advances of modernism.
    I believe that he did not challenged the results of the conclave. He
    believe it would cause serious harm to the Church and caused many
    Catholics to fall away. Because even in 1958 many first world
    Catholics were adopting secular views because of the widespread
    of availability of televisions, movies, and the forces of secularism.
    Also, it would have been a field day for the secular media.
    Also many of the sermons were becoming social gospels and
    these Priests were supporting leftist causes.
    I am sure that even his theologians may have advised him that
     the threats that caused him not ascending the Throne of Peter
    made the conclaves illegal.  It was his own decision for reasons
    stated above.
    Compared this to the 1960 elections.
    Richard Nixon could have challenged the results of 1960 and was
    advised to by his advisors because it was proven that ballots from  
    Cook county were  falsified because it came from voters already
    dead. A recount could have tipped Illinois into the Republican
    column and electing Nixon as President in 1960.
    Nixon decided himself not to challenged that election that landed
    JFK in the Whitehouse in 1960.
    He felt that it would caused much harm to the country.


    I completely agree.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    The Siri Thesis
    « Reply #3 on: August 14, 2015, 01:18:38 PM »
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  • I find it interesting that my post where I just said "I completely agree" got downthumbed, while the original post with which I agreed did not.

    So the clownish stalker who's filled with contempt for me (no doubt because he rejects the dogma EENS) continues to manifest his pathetic obsession.

    Offline Matto

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    The Siri Thesis
    « Reply #4 on: August 14, 2015, 01:22:18 PM »
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  • I do not believe in the Siri thesis because I have not seen much good evidence for it. But of all of the possible explanations of the crisis that I know of, I hope it is true. I don't think the thesis fully makes sense but then again, I don't think any of the explanations of the crisis fully make sense.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    The Siri Thesis
    « Reply #5 on: August 14, 2015, 01:56:02 PM »
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  • IMO the Siri Thesis is based upon a serious body of circuмstantial evidence, and I find it compelling both intrinsically and because it would be the best explanation for this crisis in the Church.  But, no, there's no smoking-gun proof ... yet.

    Offline Matto

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    The Siri Thesis
    « Reply #6 on: August 14, 2015, 02:00:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    I find it compelling both intrinsically and because it would be the best explanation for this crisis in the Church.  But, no, there's no smoking-gun proof ... yet.

    Yes. I find it also to be the best explanation for the crisis in the Church.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline roscoe

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    The Siri Thesis
    « Reply #7 on: August 14, 2015, 04:00:21 PM »
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  • No smoking gun but a smoking Sixtine Chapel--- for over 5 mins.  And Vatican Radio announcing that a Pope has been elected.  :detective:

    We also have Siri as the known favorite of Pius XII :cheers:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Stubborn

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    The Siri Thesis
    « Reply #8 on: August 14, 2015, 04:00:39 PM »
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  • This thesis simply does not make sense.

    +Siri elected to papacy.
    +Siri chooses to renounce papacy.
    +Siri is not and never was pope.
    The one who gets elected does not have to accept.

    Or

    +Siri elected to papacy.
    +Siri accepts papacy.
    +Siri renounces papacy a few hours or whatever later.
    +Siri was pope for a few hours.
    Suppose he accepts the election and proclaims himself pope. A little later he chooses to renounce it or otherwise retire.

    Either way, he was a NOer so I don't understand why bother to question the whole thing.









    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Arvinger

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    The Siri Thesis
    « Reply #9 on: August 14, 2015, 04:43:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    This thesis simply does not make sense.

    +Siri elected to papacy.
    +Siri chooses to renounce papacy.
    +Siri is not and never was pope.
    The one who gets elected does not have to accept.

    Or

    +Siri elected to papacy.
    +Siri accepts papacy.
    +Siri renounces papacy a few hours or whatever later.
    +Siri was pope for a few hours.
    Suppose he accepts the election and proclaims himself pope. A little later he chooses to renounce it or otherwise retire.

    Either way, he was a NOer so I don't understand why bother to question the whole thing.


    I'm not a specialist regarding Siri theory, but I always thought that the point was that Cardinal Siri was elected, accepted the Papacy, but then was forced to resign under threats. According to the Canon Law resignation under duress is null and void. The presumptive evidence we have indicates that this scenario is not outside the realm of possibility.

    Offline PG

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    The Siri Thesis
    « Reply #10 on: August 14, 2015, 05:27:02 PM »
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  • How long has the secrecy vow/measure been in place for conclaves/cardinals?
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline Stubborn

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    The Siri Thesis
    « Reply #11 on: August 14, 2015, 06:54:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Arvinger
    Quote from: Stubborn
    This thesis simply does not make sense.

    +Siri elected to papacy.
    +Siri chooses to renounce papacy.
    +Siri is not and never was pope.
    The one who gets elected does not have to accept.

    Or

    +Siri elected to papacy.
    +Siri accepts papacy.
    +Siri renounces papacy a few hours or whatever later.
    +Siri was pope for a few hours.
    Suppose he accepts the election and proclaims himself pope. A little later he chooses to renounce it or otherwise retire.

    Either way, he was a NOer so I don't understand why bother to question the whole thing.


    I'm not a specialist regarding Siri theory, but I always thought that the point was that Cardinal Siri was elected, accepted the Papacy, but then was forced to resign under threats. According to the Canon Law resignation under duress is null and void. The presumptive evidence we have indicates that this scenario is not outside the realm of possibility.


    That's pretty much how I understand it too, but first, if the majority of cardinals elected him, then why would they turn around and pressure him to resign?

    Next, he would have to be very, very weak if he, the new supreme authority, could be pressured into anything, let alone his resignation. But if true, forgetting about him being a NOer, shouldn't we be glad one so weak resigned?





     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    The Siri Thesis
    « Reply #12 on: August 14, 2015, 07:46:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Either way, he was a NOer so I don't understand why bother to question the whole thing.



    Exactly my feelings.  Cardinal Siri is irrelevant because of this fact.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Arvinger

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    The Siri Thesis
    « Reply #13 on: August 15, 2015, 06:06:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Arvinger
    Quote from: Stubborn
    This thesis simply does not make sense.

    +Siri elected to papacy.
    +Siri chooses to renounce papacy.
    +Siri is not and never was pope.
    The one who gets elected does not have to accept.

    Or

    +Siri elected to papacy.
    +Siri accepts papacy.
    +Siri renounces papacy a few hours or whatever later.
    +Siri was pope for a few hours.
    Suppose he accepts the election and proclaims himself pope. A little later he chooses to renounce it or otherwise retire.

    Either way, he was a NOer so I don't understand why bother to question the whole thing.


    I'm not a specialist regarding Siri theory, but I always thought that the point was that Cardinal Siri was elected, accepted the Papacy, but then was forced to resign under threats. According to the Canon Law resignation under duress is null and void. The presumptive evidence we have indicates that this scenario is not outside the realm of possibility.


    That's pretty much how I understand it too, but first, if the majority of cardinals elected him, then why would they turn around and pressure him to resign?

    Next, he would have to be very, very weak if he, the new supreme authority, could be pressured into anything, let alone his resignation. But if true, forgetting about him being a NOer, shouldn't we be glad one so weak resigned?
     


    I think you are painting this in too black-and-white colors. According to the presumptive evidence for Siri thesis the threats to Cardinal Siri were very serious - threats to members of his family and/or threats of persecution of the Catholics in the Communist countries. It is easy to sit in an armchair and say "he should not have given in", "it was weak". If this indeed happened, it was an extreme situation - very serious threat, great pressure and short time to decide, I would not dare to judge anyone regardless of the decision. I don't know what I would do myself in that sort of situation. Also, remember - today we have knowledge of the disaster which Vatican II and Vatican II Popes brought on the Church, Siri did not have that knowledge in 1958. You say that majority of the Cardinals voted for him, so why would they turn around? Remember, to be elected you need to get 2/3 of votes, in 1958 there were 51 cardinals voting, so 35 votes would have sufficed for election - that means possibility of 16 cardinals being against, which is a serious number, especially if some of the most influential ones were among them.  

    I don't see how the fact that Cardinal Siri went along with the Novus Ordo is relevant to what possibly happened in 1958. Also, from his position he might have considered his resignation valid, which would explain why he did not act against Vatican II Popes. And even if he wanted to, what could he possibly do? Claim that he is a Pope and John XXIII was elected invalidly? Who would believe that without hard evidence?

    While I'm not entirely convinced to Siri theory, I think it is not outside the realm of possibility.

    Offline OHCA

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    The Siri Thesis
    « Reply #14 on: August 15, 2015, 06:26:33 AM »
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  • Very well reasoned and stated, Arvinger.  Also, some of the accounts that I have seen say that the threats came directly from the Kremlin, rather than other Cardinals.