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Author Topic: The Secundum Quid/Quoad Nos" Thesis  (Read 4021 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Secundum Quid/Quoad Nos" Thesis
« Reply #75 on: May 06, 2019, 05:58:56 PM »
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    So, to me, the fact that the vast majority of Traditional Catholics have doubts about their legitimacy/orthodoxy rises to the level or threshold of compromising Universal Acceptance.
    Ladislaus, I think we started a similar debate but never finished it.  Here's my question:  Wouldn't the "doubt" about the legitimacy of the pope have to be a legitimate doubt in the first place?  I.e.  If I doubt the pope is pope because someone told me that a papal election has to happen on Wednesday and +Benedict was elected on Tuesday.  In this case, sure, I have a doubt, but the doubt is not based on correct info.
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    In the same way, most Trads who have doubts about the post-V2 popes did NOT have doubts when the popes were elected, but Trads only doubted AFTER the election, and Trads based such doubts on the popes' heretical acts/words.  I say that this kind of "doubt" is misplaced because the theologians at the time of +Bellarmine always held open the possibility that a pope's private faith could fail and he could be declared a heretic.  Hence, the idea that the post-V2 popes aren't popes because of a lack of orthodoxy is NOT A VALID REASON TO DOUBT THEIR LEGITIMACY.  Only the Church can rule on their legitimacy.
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    So, being that most Trads follow this faulty reasoning, then i'd say their "doubts" do not affect Universal Acceptance because their doubts are wrong.
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    If one wants to argue that some/all of the post-V2 popes were Freemasons and not eligible for election, then ok.  But I'd counter that St Pius X and Pius XII changed the election laws, so that doubt is invalid too.
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    The only rational doubt that has only facts to support it is for Paul VI, which one could doubt based on the Siri Thesis.  But, any pope JPII and after is not affected by this.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The Secundum Quid/Quoad Nos" Thesis
    « Reply #76 on: May 06, 2019, 06:11:48 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, I think we started a similar debate but never finished it.  Here's my question:  Wouldn't the "doubt" about the legitimacy of the pope have to be a legitimate doubt in the first place?  I.e.  If I doubt the pope is pope because someone told me that a papal election has to happen on Wednesday and +Benedict was elected on Tuesday.  In this case, sure, I have a doubt, but the doubt is not based on correct info.
    .
    In the same way, most Trads who have doubts about the post-V2 popes did NOT have doubts when the popes were elected, but Trads only doubted AFTER the election, and Trads based such doubts on the popes' heretical acts/words.  I say that this kind of "doubt" is misplaced because the theologians at the time of +Bellarmine always held open the possibility that a pope's private faith could fail and he could be declared a heretic.  Hence, the idea that the post-V2 popes aren't popes because of a lack of orthodoxy is NOT A VALID REASON TO DOUBT THEIR LEGITIMACY.  Only the Church can rule on their legitimacy.
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    So, being that most Trads follow this faulty reasoning, then i'd say their "doubts" do not affect Universal Acceptance because their doubts are wrong.
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    If one wants to argue that some/all of the post-V2 popes were Freemasons and not eligible for election, then ok.  But I'd counter that St Pius X and Pius XII changed the election laws, so that doubt is invalid too.
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    The only rational doubt that has only facts to support it is for Paul VI, which one could doubt based on the Siri Thesis.  But, any pope JPII and after is not affected by this.
    If you bought Siri thesis JPII would be invalid as well, because he was elected while Siri was still alive ,and presumably thus still pope (according to this theory.) 

    Furthermore, IF the New rite of episcopal consecration are invalid, that would prevent Benedict or Francis from becoming Pope even if they had valid elections, if I understand correctly.



    Offline forlorn

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    Re: The Secundum Quid/Quoad Nos" Thesis
    « Reply #77 on: May 06, 2019, 06:23:03 PM »
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  • But can we reasonably distinguish cases where large numbers of Catholics disagree between *multiple claimants* (in which case the identity of the Pope would not be a dogmatic fact) and a situation in which there's only one purported claimant? (in which case at least usually the identity of the Pope *would* be considered a dogmatic fact?)  If this wasn't the case, you could theoretically work your way up to Protestantism without denying the papal office by simply saying nobody has ever occupied the office since St Peter.
    Mate I'm actually trying to defend Universal Peaceful Acceptance vs Stubborn here. I was just trying to point out that he was misusing/misintepreting his quote, and in the process he pretty much declared that it's impossible an election could ever be invalid. Well the first John XXIII proves that it can, as does canon law but he ignored that point when I tried it. I didn't bring up the possibility of invalid elections as proof of sedevacantism here, but rather as proof he was misinterpreting the quote. 

    I get your confusion since I argued a bit about the mechanics of it earlier, but I conceded the point there and now I'm trying to correct Stubborn's illogical arguments against it. I still have a lot more to read up on it myself, but it doesn't take knowing and agreeing with something for certain to see when arguments against it are fallacious.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The Secundum Quid/Quoad Nos" Thesis
    « Reply #78 on: May 06, 2019, 07:53:11 PM »
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  • OK fair enough that makes sense.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Secundum Quid/Quoad Nos" Thesis
    « Reply #79 on: May 07, 2019, 11:24:56 AM »
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    If you bought Siri thesis JPII would be invalid as well, because he was elected while Siri was still alive ,and presumably thus still pope (according to this theory.) 

    Furthermore, IF the New rite of episcopal consecration are invalid, that would prevent Benedict or Francis from becoming Pope even if they had valid elections, if I understand correctly.
    You're right, it would affect JPII as well.  However, the only concrete fact which supports this theory is the white smoke.  It's not very provable.
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    For the episcopal consecrations, again, this isn't provable.  They are only doubtful.  Also, even if they were invalid 100%, those who were elected would still hold the material papal office.  Again, can one base their rejection of a pope on this theory alone?  Very unprovable.
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    So, I say that most Trad "doubts" as to why they reject this or that pope are not very solid.  This proves that the Church was never designed to be governed "by the people" but as a monarchy (i.e. Until the Church tells us that something has changed, or a decision is made, we stick with the status quo).  This is true Catholic thinking.  Most all other thinking is tainted by Protestant, Democratic or independent-mindedness, which are errors.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Secundum Quid/Quoad Nos" Thesis
    « Reply #80 on: May 07, 2019, 12:16:19 PM »
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  • Mate I'm actually trying to defend Universal Peaceful Acceptance vs Stubborn here. I was just trying to point out that he was misusing/misintepreting his quote, and in the process he pretty much declared that it's impossible an election could ever be invalid. Well the first John XXIII proves that it can, as does canon law but he ignored that point when I tried it. I didn't bring up the possibility of invalid elections as proof of sedevacantism here, but rather as proof he was misinterpreting the quote.

    I get your confusion since I argued a bit about the mechanics of it earlier, but I conceded the point there and now I'm trying to correct Stubborn's illogical arguments against it. I still have a lot more to read up on it myself, but it doesn't take knowing and agreeing with something for certain to see when arguments against it are fallacious.
    Misusing/misinterpreting Pope Pius X's (and Pius XII's) quote? What is it you don't get about the pope saying what he said? Is it not authoritative enough for you, or too incomplete, or too lacking in requirements, or is it in some way so unclear to you that you must reject what he said and instead, look to canon law as if the pope who wrote the law did not, and cling to a cardinal's words for what he said is infallible proof - of which you do not believe anyway?

    Yes, I can see that in your effort to defend the empty chair, why you would say that, simply because there is no other reason to say that - except to defend an empty chair.

    Per the pope, infallible proof is that the man accepted his election, and by that act "is instantly the true pope" - and upon his acceptance, "he acquires and can exercise full and absolute jurisdiction over the whole world" - that is the law as established by the pope which, by adding all your ridiculous additional requirements and rules and misinterpreting where no interpreting is even necessary, you reject.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse