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Author Topic: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret  (Read 3558 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
« on: January 14, 2024, 11:37:31 AM »
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    • I thought this article deserved it’s own thread:


    I came across an interesting case in The Casuist several years ago involving a secret ordination and consecration. The main point of the article was to show how careful Holy Mother Church protects the seal of confession, but it also indirectly points out how Holy Orders are still valid even though done in secret and without witnesses.

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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
    « Reply #1 on: September 07, 2024, 05:22:26 AM »
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    • Wow...  What a story!  Thank you for sharing!

    I am curious as to what book this is from and if it has any other interesting stories!  :popcorn:
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
    « Reply #2 on: September 07, 2024, 05:56:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: AMDGJMJ on September 07, 2024, 05:22:26 AM
    Wow...  What a story!  Thank you for sharing!

    I am curious as to what book this is from and if it has any other interesting stories!  :popcorn:


    It’s from a set called the Casuist. There are five volumes and they are basically real life cases of problems solved by moral theologians. Warning: if you start reading these cases you may develop scruples.
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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
    « Reply #3 on: September 07, 2024, 07:14:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 07, 2024, 05:56:36 AM

    It’s from a set called the Casuist. There are five volumes and they are basically real life cases of problems solved by moral theologians. Warning: if you start reading these cases you may develop scruples.
    Good to know.  I probably should steer clear from it then since I am naturally prone to scruples.  😅🤣
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
    « Reply #4 on: September 07, 2024, 11:38:17 AM »
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    • But how did Father Aurelius get himself consecrated a bishop, clandestinely, without revealing to the consecrating bishop why this was necessary?  Wouldn't that break the seal of the confessional in which the question came up in the first place?

    Or did Aurelius confide this need to the consecrating bishop without revealing anything about the specific confession?

    I'm confused here.  I have a hard time imagining that Aurelius could say to the bishop "I need to be consecrated a bishop, never mind why, there's just a need, and once I do what I have to do with the powers of the episcopacy, I'll cease to act as a bishop, no one will ever know"?
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
    « Reply #5 on: September 07, 2024, 11:41:56 AM »
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    • I just checked, and at least some of these volumes are available on Internet Archive.

    I love this kind of stuff, and I'm going to see if I can download them to PDF files to add to my library.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
    « Reply #6 on: September 07, 2024, 11:57:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on September 07, 2024, 11:38:17 AM
    But how did Father Aurelius get himself consecrated a bishop, clandestinely, without revealing to the consecrating bishop why this was necessary?  Wouldn't that break the seal of the confessional in which the question came up in the first place?

    Or did Aurelius confide this need to the consecrating bishop without revealing anything about the specific confession?

    I'm confused here.  I have a hard time imagining that Aurelius could say to the bishop "I need to be consecrated a bishop, never mind why, there's just a need, and once I do what I have to do with the powers of the episcopacy, I'll cease to act as a bishop, no one will ever know"?
    .
    Presumably the consecrating Bishop was simply told what he needed to do by the Sacred Penitentiary. Equally presumably, the sacred penitentiary selected the consecrating Bishop based on his likelihood to simply obey and not be too curious. 
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
    « Reply #7 on: September 07, 2024, 12:06:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on September 07, 2024, 11:57:18 AM
    .
    Presumably the consecrating Bishop was simply told what he needed to do by the Sacred Penitentiary. Equally presumably, the sacred penitentiary selected the consecrating Bishop based on his likelihood to simply obey and not be too curious.
     But wouldn't it have been a violation of the seal of confessional for the Sacred Penitentiary to be told about the matter in the first place?
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
    « Reply #8 on: September 07, 2024, 12:21:33 PM »
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    • I just downloaded all five volumes.

    As they say in the Staples ad, that was easy.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
    « Reply #9 on: September 07, 2024, 12:45:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on September 07, 2024, 12:06:10 PM
    But wouldn't it have been a violation of the seal of confessional for the Sacred Penitentiary to be told about the matter in the first place?
    I hear your concern.  Is it possible the priest told the penitent to contact them?
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
    « Reply #10 on: September 07, 2024, 01:35:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 07, 2024, 12:45:44 PM
    I hear your concern.  Is it possible the priest told the penitent to contact them?
    .

    I'm sure the confessor would have needed the penitent's permission to even contact Rome about this, or to say anything to anybody about it. But I do agree that it's a little strange that the book doesn't mention this specifically. Maybe the author thought this was so obvious that it didn't need to be stated specifically?! But it's still weird that it's not mentioned. And it does seem like it was the confessor who contacted Rome, not the penitent, since it mentions the Seal of Confession needing to be preserved, which would not be the case if the penitent himself had brought this matter to the Holy Office, since that would be outside the Seal of Confession even if it was a confidential matter. The Seal only binds to the confessor, not the penitent.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
    « Reply #11 on: September 07, 2024, 03:01:32 PM »
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    • Been spending this afternoon going through the five-volume set of The Casuist that I downloaded earlier today.  It's been very enjoyable and informative reading, and just skimming through it to find topics of interest, I haven't found anything that, in my opinion, could arouse scruples in anyone.

    I am thankful that we have the technology to preserve and disseminate such books, when the Newchurchers would much prefer that these books just be forgotten about, and that everyone proceed as though "the Church began in 1962".  My son and I had a lively discussion in our homeschool business class this week about physical media and the liceity of downloading abandoned books, software, music, films, and the like, and I brought pre-Vatican II religious texts into the discussion.  We discussed Thomas Nelson's reprinting of traditional Catholic works via TAN Books as a kind of informal case study.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
    « Reply #12 on: September 07, 2024, 03:01:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on September 07, 2024, 12:06:10 PM
    But wouldn't it have been a violation of the seal of confessional for the Sacred Penitentiary to be told about the matter in the first place?
    No, not as long as any identifying information is withheld. 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
    « Reply #13 on: September 07, 2024, 03:32:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on September 07, 2024, 03:01:44 PM
    No, not as long as any identifying information is withheld.
    But it wasn't if we know the penitent-priest's name.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The seal of confession and Holy Orders done in secret
    « Reply #14 on: September 07, 2024, 04:03:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on September 07, 2024, 12:06:10 PM
    But wouldn't it have been a violation of the seal of confessional for the Sacred Penitentiary to be told about the matter in the first place?

    It seems to me that the confessor would have received permission from the penitent to ask for guidance from Rome.
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