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Author Topic: The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy  (Read 2782 times)

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Offline Santo Subito

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The quoted portion below constitutes the last 2 sections of the essay. Click on the link for the rest.

http://www.waragainstbeing.com/node/43

Article 20: The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy

St. Robert Bellarmine

St. Robert Bellarmine’s writings are a constant recourse for sedevacantists. It is necessary therefore to give some attention to his errors. In regard to the situation in which there might be no (certain) Cardinals remaining alive who could elect a Pontiff, Bellarmine writes:

“If there were no papal constitution on the election of the Supreme Pontiff; or if by some chance all the electors designated by law, that is, all the Cardinals, perished simultaneously, the right of election would pertain to the neighboring bishops and the Roman clergy, but with some dependence on a general council of bishops.

In this proposition, there does not appear to be universal agreement. Some think that, exclusive of positive law, the right of election would devolve on a Council of Bishops, as Cajetan, tract. De Potestate Papae & Concilii, cap. 13 & 21 & Francis Victoria, relect. 2. quest. 2. De potestate Ecclesiae. Others, as Sylvester relates s.v. Excommunicatio, 9. sec. 3, teach that in that case the right of election pertains to the Roman clergy. But these two opinions can be reconciled. Without a doubt, the primary authority of election in that case pertains to a Council of Bishops; since, when the Pontiff dies, there is no higher authority in the Church than that of a general Council: and if the Pontiff were not the Bishop of Rome, or any other particular place, but only the general Pastor of the whole Church, it would pertain to the Bishops either to elect his successor, or to designate the electors: nevertheless, after the Pontificate of the world was joined to the bishopric of the City [posteaquam unitus est Pontificatus orbis Episcopatui Urbis], the immediate authority of electing in that case would have to be permitted by the bishops of the whole world to the neighboring bishops, and to the clerics of the Roman Church, which is proved in two ways.

First, because the right of election was transferred from all the neighboring bishops and the Roman clergy to the Cardinals, who are a certain part of the bishops and clergy of the Roman Church; therefore, when the Cardinals are lacking, the right of election ought to return to all the bishops and clergy of the Roman Church.

Second, because this is a most ancient custom (as we showed above from Cyprian), that the neighboring bishops, in the presence of the clergy, should elect both the Bishop of Rome and others also. And it is unheard of that the Bishops or Archbishops of the whole world should meet for the election of the Supreme Pontiff, except in a case where it is doubtful who should be the legitimate electors. For this doubt ought to be resolved by a general Council, as was done in the Council of Constance [emphasis mine].” (Bellarmine's Controversies, De clericis, bk. I, ch. 10. (Translation by James Larrabee)

Cardinal Bellarmine was wrong about Constance. The Council of Constance, as we have seen, did not choose electors, or elect a Pope (Martin V), stemming from any power or authority which it possessed on its own, but from the power and authority which it received from the convocation and legitimization of this Council by the valid Pope Gregory XII, who resigned and made such an election possible. There was no “doubtful” Pope at Constance, only a valid Pope who was doubted by those who were deceived by Antipopes. And there were no valid electors at Constance until Gregory approved them as such. The Council of Constance indeed used a very unusual method of electing Martin V (election by a General Council, which employed a complex system of voting by nations), but the approval and legitimization of this variation from normal procedures for Papal elections came not from any power or authority possessed by the Council itself, but from the convocation of this Council by Gregory XII and his approval of this electoral process.

Secondly, if there are no longer any Cardinal-electors living, the right of election of the Pope falls, according to the teaching of Pope Pius IV, to the clergy of Rome. The following is from the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia article on “Election of the Popes”:

“Should the college of cardinals ever become extinct, the duty of choosing a supreme pastor would fall, not on the bishops assembled in council, but upon the remaining Roman clergy. At the time of the Council of Trent, Pius IV, thinking it possible that in the event of his death the council might lay some claim to the right, insisted on this point in a consistorial allocution.”

There is, therefore, no power or right inherent in a General Council by which it can elect a Pope, unless it be empowered to do so by a reigning Pope. No General Council could ever come into valid existence in a situation where there is no reigning Pope, or where a valid Pope had not convoked and sanctioned a General Council before his death or abdication.

It should also be noted that, in his analysis, Bellarmine specifically designates a situation in which all the Cardinals or designated electors “perished simultaneously.” In such a situation, the juridical (not to mention moral and spiritual-sacramental) connections and bonds within the Roman Church would still be intact. We would presume, in Bellarmine’s scenario, that the previous Pope was valid. The interregnum would be relatively short. No such situation exists today after a 54 year period of alleged sedevacantism. We have had five Popes (Antipopes in the sedevacantist scenario), and the Cardinals who were alive at the time of the death of Pius XII took many years to all die. The Orders of the existing “Roman clergy”, in the sedevacantist perspective, are almost all invalid. Who will therefore determine what is constituted by the “Roman clergy”? One can almost imagine ads appearing in all the newspapers of Rome advertising for “Sedevacantist Clergy to Elect a Pope.” We are here dealing with buffoonery.

Therefore, even without considering the serious “conciliarist” errors found in Bellarmine’s analysis above, the use of this passage from his works as a solution to the present sedevacantist conundrum should clearly be seen as totally inapplicable.

One other quote attributed to St. Robert Bellarmine, which is often used by both sedevacantists and adherents to the SSPX, deserves mentioning. It too reflects a derogation of Papal Primacy, and is often a fellow-traveler with Conciliarism. It reads;

“When the Supreme Pontiff pronounces a sentence of excommunication which is unjust or null, it must not be accepted, without, however, straying from the respect due to the Holy See.” (I don’t seriously doubt that this is from Bellarmine, but have yet to see it docuмented).

Such resistance to “unjust excommunication” has been condemned by at least two Popes. Following is a passage from Pope Pius IX’s encyclical Quartus Supra (on the Armenian Schism), in which he quotes from Clement XI’s encyclical Unigenitus:

“Since this does not please the neo-schismatics, they follow the example of heretics of more recent times. They argue that the sentence of schism and excommunication pronounced against them by the Archbishop of Tyana, the Apostolic Delegate in Constantinople, was unjust, and consequently void of strength and influence. They have claimed also that they are unable to accept the sentence because the faithful might desert to the heretics if deprived of their ministration . . . The Jansenist heretics dared to teach such doctrines as that an excommunication pronounced by a lawful prelate could be ignored on a pretext of injustice. Each person should perform, as they said, his own particular duty despite an excommunication. Our predecessor of happy memory Clement XI in his constitution Unigenitus against the errors of Quesnell forbade and condemned statements of this kind . . . Through human weakness a person could be unjustly punished with censure by his prelate. But it is still necessary, as Our predecessor St. Gregory the Great warned, ‘for a bishop’s subordinates to fear even an unjust condemnation and not to blame the judgment of the bishop rashly in case the fault which did not exist, since the condemnation was unjust, develops out of the pride of heated reproof.’ But if one should be afraid even of an unjust condemnation by one’s bishop, what must be said of those men who have been condemned for rebelling against their bishop and the Apostolic See and tearing to pieces as they are now doing by a new schism the seamless garment of Christ, which is the Church?”

St. Robert Bellarmine was therefore also wrong on this issue. And this clearly reveals the danger of searching out, for the purpose of self-justification, theologians (Fr. O’Reilly is a prime example), canonists, and even Saints of the past whose opinions clearly contradict the obvious doctrinal positions of Papal docuмents, and the doctrinal teachings of legitimate Councils.

Another example of the influence of Conciliar thinking is to be found in the thought and writings of John Henry Newman. He was an “inopportunist” in regard to the question of the Pope’s solemn definition of the doctrine of Papal Infallibility at Vatican Council I. He expressed written sentiments desiring the death of Pope Pius IX and the election of a new Pope (to prevent the promulgation of this Dogma), or that he be driven from Rome (see my article Newman and the Pope at http://www.waragainstbeing.com/partvii). He was also of the stated position that Dogma promulgated by the Pope could not be considered infallible until approved by the whole Church, especially to be signified by the moral unanimity of bishops. He therefore held out hope, even after the Dogma’s promulgation, that the bishops of the “minority” (inopportunists) would coalesce in strong resistance to the Definition. He even went so far in his correspondence, during the period between the Dogma’s promulgation and the eventual surrender of all the minority bishops, to counsel others to avoid confessionals where the confessor might disturb their consciences by inquiring into their acceptance of this Dogma. While certainly not being a full-blown Conciliarist, nevertheless his thinking and Faith were obviously seriously affected by these errors.

It might be telling that that when Fr. O’Reilly was appointed to the chair of theology at the newly established Catholic University in Dublin, John Henry Newman was its Rector.

Conclusion

It is profoundly ingenuous for sedevacantists to call their alleged 54 year period of sedevacantism an “interregnum”. The word means “between reigns,” “between Popes.” It requires that there be a link, an “inter,” between two Papacies. The longest Papal interregnum in the history of the Church was two years and nine months. During that period, and all periods of true interregnums, the Papally legitimized process and persons required for election were present to complete the equation. No such situation, under the sedevacantist scenario of a 54 year vacancy, exists today. One side of the equation is empty, and cannot be filled.

The sedevacantist position is integrally one of despair. It is, in fact, a denial of the promise of Our Lord, which is so aptly summarized in Pastor Aeternus of Vatican Council I, and which is so easily understood without the aid of theologians, theological manuals, or canonists:

“That which the Prince of Shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, Jesus Christ our Lord, established in the person of the Blessed Apostle Peter to secure the perpetual welfare and lasting good of the Church, must, by the same institution, necessarily remain unceasingly in the Church, which, being founded upon the Rock, will stand firm to the end of the world. For none can doubt, and it is known to all ages, that the holy and Blessed Peter, the Prince and chief of the Apostles, the pillar of the faith and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of mankind, and lives, presides and judges to this day, always in his successors the Bishops of the Holy See of Rome, which was founded by Him and consecrated by His Blood. Whence, whosoever succeeds to Peter in this See does by the institution of Christ Himself obtain the primacy of Peter over the whole Church. The disposition made by Incarnate Truth (dispositio veritatis) therefore remains, and Blessed Peter, abiding in the rock’s strength which he received (in accepta fortitudine petrae perseverans), has not abandoned the direction of the Church.”

Sedevacantism is a religion of Abandonment by Christ.


Offline Twinkle Toes

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The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2012, 04:06:22 PM »
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  • Santo Subito

    Don't waste your breath.  Only a miracle of grace from God will get a hardcore sedevacantist to change their mind.  All we can do for them is pray that God will enlighten their darkened and clouded minds.


    Offline TKGS

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    The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy
    « Reply #2 on: December 30, 2012, 05:28:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: Twinkle Toes
    Santo Subito

    Don't waste your breath.  Only a miracle of grace from God will get a hardcore sedevacantist to change their mind.  All we can do for them is pray that God will enlighten their darkened and clouded minds.


    The one thing you're right about is not to waste one's breath.

    I, for one, am not inclined to listen to any modern amatuer theologian explain to me the errors of a sainted Doctor of the Church.  We might as well listen to someone explain the errors of Pope St. Pius V, St. Robert Bellarmine, or St. James (as Martin Luther did).

    I can read and hear all about the follies of the Catholic Church in any modern history book or television "discovery" show.  I can hear all about how the Church was wrong until Vatican II put it all to rights just about every week at any local Novus Ordo service.  I don't need to read about it here.

    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy
    « Reply #3 on: December 30, 2012, 06:38:12 PM »
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  • You anti-sedevacantists are like gophers in that gopher game at arcades.  Hit one, and another just pops up.

    On a positive perspective, maybe truth is striking a chord within Santo Subito.. that is why he is constantly gnawing at sedes. He's trying to prove that it is false in order to squelch his inner voice saying "Uh oh they may be right..."



    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy
    « Reply #4 on: December 30, 2012, 06:54:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Twinkle Toes
    Santo Subito

    Don't waste your breath.  Only a miracle of grace from God will get a hardcore sedevacantist to change their mind.  All we can do for them is pray that God will enlighten their darkened and clouded minds.


    A ridiculous post from someone with a ridiculous username.

    As for the article, I don't think it's wise to pick apart the "errors" of a Saint.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy
    « Reply #5 on: December 31, 2012, 12:58:24 AM »
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  •  I would be interested to hear a sede response to Larson's argument.

    On the Lane/Cekada thread at IA, they seemed to just dismiss it.

    Offline Mathieu

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    The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy
    « Reply #6 on: December 31, 2012, 08:13:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: Santo Subito

    Sedevacantism is a religion of Abandonment by Christ.


    I wonder what is the more disastrous and "un" Catholic scenario:

    1. To have a period of time when there is no Pope sitting on the Chair, as the SedeVacantists believe.

    OR:

    2. To have a period of time where the man who claims to be the Pope
      -often takes part in false worship,
      -actively promotes his hierarchy and faithful to take place in local gatherings of false worship,
      -consistently undermines virtually every single Blessed Catholic Teaching that has been handed down to us from Jesus Christ Himself,
      -teaches error in his encyclicals,
      -promotes a form of worship that is scandalous, injurious to the faithful and downright sacrilegious
      -punishes faithful Catholics and promotes monsters
      -consistently promotes men to the office of Shepherd of Souls who prey on the faithful and especially on children
      -turns his back on those who cry out for help from him
      -receives atheists, Jєωs, masons, etc. into the Vatican for personal audiences
      -claims, God help us, that the unbelieving Jєωs have (Even Now!) a valid covenant
      -slaps Jesus Christ in His Holy Face at ever corner....


    Abandonment... ?   I don't have the time to keep going.  


    If somehow one can construe that the Church not having a Pope for 40 to 50 years is worse than having these monsters at the helm as valid leaders, then I do not understand how it is possible for anyone today to have the ability to recognize anything as being true or beautiful or good.

    Offline TKGS

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    The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy
    « Reply #7 on: December 31, 2012, 09:07:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    I would be interested to hear a sede response to Larson's argument.

    On the Lane/Cekada thread at IA, they seemed to just dismiss it.


    I don't know anything about the "Lane/Cekada threat at IA", so I can't speak to that.

    Is Larson the one who wrote of the errors of St. Robert Bellarmine?

    If so, perhaps sedevacantists don't respond because the Saint and Doctor of the Church speaks for himself.  We don't see a need to reply to the accusations that he is in grave error just as we don't see a need to reply to the accusations of Martin Luther.  Amongst Catholics, the Church has already placed Saint Robert Bellarmine's arguments on the highest plane.  To condemn his arguments is to condemn the Church.


    Offline Canute

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    The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy
    « Reply #8 on: December 31, 2012, 10:27:53 AM »
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  • I can't figure out why sedevacantism is an "Abandonment by Christ" but the Larson or SSPX positions are not.

    In the last two you are left to your own devices to figure out which teachings of the post-Conciliar "popes" are Catholic and which are not, and then act accordingly. That sounds like "abandonment" to me.

    Offline Twinkle Toes

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    The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy
    « Reply #9 on: December 31, 2012, 12:59:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: Twinkle Toes
    Santo Subito

    Don't waste your breath.  Only a miracle of grace from God will get a hardcore sedevacantist to change their mind.  All we can do for them is pray that God will enlighten their darkened and clouded minds.


    A ridiculous post from someone with a ridiculous username.

    As for the article, I don't think it's wise to pick apart the "errors" of a Saint.


    No need to attack my username.  I noticed that there is another poster that goes by the username of TinkerBell.  Hey, Twinkle Toes and TinkerBell, that's rather cute don't you think?

    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy
    « Reply #10 on: December 31, 2012, 02:57:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Twinkle Toes
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: Twinkle Toes
    Santo Subito

    Don't waste your breath.  Only a miracle of grace from God will get a hardcore sedevacantist to change their mind.  All we can do for them is pray that God will enlighten their darkened and clouded minds.


    A ridiculous post from someone with a ridiculous username.

    As for the article, I don't think it's wise to pick apart the "errors" of a Saint.


    No need to attack my username.  I noticed that there is another poster that goes by the username of TinkerBell.  Hey, Twinkle Toes and TinkerBell, that's rather cute don't you think?



    Medic.... Medic

    We got a troll here


    Offline rowsofvoices9

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    The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy
    « Reply #11 on: January 01, 2013, 11:26:47 AM »
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  • I'm aware that sedes defend their position based on the writings of St. Robert Bellarmine.  However doesn't the Church teach that while a pope reigns, there is no earthy authority qualified to judge a whether he is a formal heretic?  This is a determination which God alone can make.  Correct me if I'm wrong but,  I understand that successive popes can make decisions regarding previous popes such as St. Pius X did.  In light of the Church's infallible teaching, shouldn't St. Bellarmine's views be considered nothing more than his theological opinion.  An opinion that is not binding on any Catholic.
    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy
    « Reply #12 on: January 02, 2013, 10:44:39 PM »
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  • I want to thank Santo Subito for bringing this guy's writings out of obscurity.  

    Has anyone else ever heard of Mr. Larson?

    As for the link, you guys should check out some of the other writings...  

    ...they are something!   :facepalm:

    I actually may comment more on this later.

    Offline TKGS

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    The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy
    « Reply #13 on: January 03, 2013, 07:04:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Has anyone else ever heard of Mr. Larson?


    Yes.  I've read many of his essays and articles.  He is a very conservative Catholic.  From what I've read, I would consider him to be on par with Mr. Michael Davies.  Mr. Larson seems to me to be anti-sedevacantist and has become more so over the years.  

    In the past he has written for a conservative Catholic periodical published in England (the name escapes me) to which I used to subscribe but I could no longer afford the subscription price.  The editorial position of that magazine follows, I think, that of The Wanderer and (to a lesser extent) The Remnant.  Though it is not necessarily traditional, it is not quite as hostile to tradition as The Wanderer.  I think Mr. Larson is more traditional, but is not as hostile to the Novus Ordo as The Remnant.

    John Lane has actually used some of his arguments to demonstrate the correctness of the sedevacantist position, much to the chagrin of Mr. Larson.


    Offline Sunbeam

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    The Religion of Abandonment: Sedevacantism and the Concilliarist Heresy
    « Reply #14 on: January 03, 2013, 11:12:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    I've read many of [Mr Larson's] essays and articles.  He is a very conservative Catholic.  From what I've read, I would consider him to be on par with Mr. Michael Davies.  Mr. Larson seems to me to be anti-sedevacantist and has become more so over the years.

    In the past he has written for a conservative Catholic periodical published in England (the name escapes me) to which I used to subscribe but I could no longer afford the subscription price.  The editorial position of that magazine follows, I think, that of The Wanderer and (to a lesser extent) The Remnant.  Though it is not necessarily traditional, it is not quite as hostile to tradition as The Wanderer.  I think Mr. Larson is more traditional, but is not as hostile to the Novus Ordo as The Remnant.

    TKGS,

    I think the periodical you are referring to is Christian Order.

    You can still read some of its editorials here,
    and a selection of articles here
    .
    In fact, between Michael Davies and James Larson, there was some polemic, which you can pick up on here.