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Author Topic: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO  (Read 9342 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2021, 11:49:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on July 27, 2021, 10:58:46 AM
    I can't speak to numbers, but archbishop Lefebvre told people they could attend the new mass FOR SUNDAY OBLIGATION if they felt obliged to which is a lot further than anyone here is even arguing for.  I've never heard any traditional clergy EXCEPT fr wathen say you can't go to a new mass for a funeral or wedding.  Now there probably are some, maybe they're correct, but that's definitely not a requirement to be a traditional Catholic just because you say it is.  Your accusing everyone who disagrees of bad will is uncharacteristically dimondite as well.  
    I heard many different priests both from the pulpit and in person tell us we cannot go to the new "mass," mostly prior to the 1980s but when the changes first hit, many (not all) of those priests who were kicked out of their rectories told us to avoid the whole NO like the plague that it is. I was too young then to fully understand why, but did end up figuring it out by the grace of God - but now, after all the devastation the evil thing has caused, it's easy to see, or should be imo, yet people STILL defend it not knowing or accepting what it really is. 

    I sometimes wonder why the trad clergy of all ranks devote so little time to this issue when it seems they should do everything they can to wholly condemn the evil thing, loud and clear, regularly. Perhaps to them it's yesterdays news, but too many of them believe it's only an inferior service.  
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #61 on: July 27, 2021, 11:50:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 27, 2021, 10:49:34 AM
    They also softened, over time, especially after the 1988 indult came into existence.
    Since we want to get the history right, 1988 was the creation of the Ecclesia Dei commission, and the wider application of pre-existing indults for the TLM, in response to +ABL consecrating bishops.

    There were indults before 1988. If someone just said "the indult", I would probably assume they meant the wordwide indult of 1984.

    There were even earlier ones such as the 1971 indult for the UK often called the "Agatha Christie indult".
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #62 on: July 27, 2021, 11:52:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on July 27, 2021, 11:36:12 AM
    No, we are not saying Canon 1258 applies to the new mass. Among other reasons, the new mass has the appearances of an approved Catholic rite. It's an argument by analogy from something we assumed you would accept.
    You just perfectly explained in your above quote, in a nutshell, why it is more dangerous to go to a NO service than it is to go to a prot service, which is what Pax is talking about.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #63 on: July 27, 2021, 11:55:46 AM »
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    • The the only difference between occasionally and never attending the Novus Ordo is that you are either occasionally attending the blasphemous service or you never attend the blasphemous service.  

    It really is that simple.
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    Offline Sgt Rock USMC

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #64 on: July 27, 2021, 12:08:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on July 27, 2021, 11:36:12 AM
    And yet the Church pre-V2 permitted Catholics to passively attend non-Cathoic services despite those services' evils against the Faith.

    If you read Canon 1258, in the 1917 Code, the Church does not give Catholics permission for "Merely passive or material presence..."  

    It specifically states: "Merely passive or material presence may be tolerated..."  It doesn't say it IS tolerated (or permitted, for that matter), but that it MAY be tolerated. 

    The Catholic Church did not give a "free pass" to Catholics, to attend non-Catholic ceremonies or service, even passively.     
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #65 on: July 27, 2021, 12:49:33 PM »
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    • Quote
    No, we are not saying Canon 1258 applies to the new mass.

    Emile is.  If you're not, then you should be disagreeing with Emile, not me.
    .

    Quote
    It specifically states: "Merely passive or material presence may be tolerated..."  It doesn't say it IS tolerated (or permitted, for that matter), but that it MAY be tolerated. 

    The Catholic Church did not give a "free pass" to Catholics, to attend non-Catholic ceremonies or service, even passively.
    Exactly.  But people who want to do their own bidding, gloss over the differences in meaning of "may", "is", "tolerate", "allowed", etc.  And they ignore all other canons which contradict their new interpretation.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #66 on: July 27, 2021, 01:07:04 PM »
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    • Pax I don't hate you and I'm not offended. I think you're being a little bit ridiculous but that's neither here nor there.

    If you support the NO you can't be a trad I agree.  None of us here supports the NO though. We're discussing whether or not the same canonical provisions that apply to Protestant services also apply to the new Mass. It's probable that they do but not certain.

    Honestly if that makes me not traditional so be it I don't really care. I don't care about the label. But I do think archbishop Lefebvre  did what was needed to save the church, that we should not worship at the new Mass, and that assisi definitively demonstrates that the church is in crisis such that the SSPX and similar organizations need to minister, preach, and worship even without the approval of Rome. If that doesn't make me a traditionalist I don't really care, but that's why I'm not indult 
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #67 on: July 27, 2021, 02:22:57 PM »
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    • Byzcat, you raise a good point, that the word "Traditionalist" no longer has any meaning, as it once did.  In the 70s and 80s, there were 2 camps - Trads vs Modernists.  Now you have many different "flavors" of pro-TLM, most of whom don't have the strict standards of the 70s/80s.  And anyone who simply "likes" the TLM considers himself a Trad.  The word is dead and has lost all meaning.  So have most doctrines.  So be it.  God will sort it out. 
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #68 on: July 27, 2021, 02:49:04 PM »
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    Has it ever occurred to you that that perhaps your conscience is not properly formed? Perhaps those chastizing you are vehicles of actual graces for you?

    No, because I know history.  I know the Fr Wathen's, Fr Hennifan's, Fr Gomar Depaw's, Bishop Castro Meyers, etc of the world.  The Michael Davies' of the world.  And the many european priests/monks whose names I cannot spell.  They all agreed on the stance against the new mass.  They were all well educated in pre-V2 orthodoxy.
    .
    People like Emile aren't arguing for something, aren't standing on any principle.  They are merely arguing for an exception, a toleration, a permission.  This proves they don't really agree with the principle in the first place, because they are hyper-focused on the exception and on the "gray area".
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #69 on: July 27, 2021, 03:53:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 27, 2021, 02:22:57 PM
    Byzcat, you raise a good point, that the word "Traditionalist" no longer has any meaning, as it once did.  In the 70s and 80s, there were 2 camps - Trads vs Modernists.  Now you have many different "flavors" of pro-TLM, most of whom don't have the strict standards of the 70s/80s.  And anyone who simply "likes" the TLM considers himself a Trad.  The word is dead and has lost all meaning.  So have most doctrines.  So be it.  God will sort it out.
    I mean I was born in '95 and am a recent convert so I get that there's gonna be different perspective on things.

    But I still sorta think this is majoring on minors.  I don't think Traditional Catholic is *meaningless*, but part of the issue is it has several different conflicting meanings.  personally I consider FSSP/Indult groups to be "semi-trad" because at the end of the day, obedience comes first for them and tradition comes second.  So I guess I see Tradition as primary as the defintion for "tradition."  But I guess just because I think that doesn't mean its right,
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #70 on: July 27, 2021, 05:26:38 PM »
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    I don't think Traditional Catholic is *meaningless*, but part of the issue is it has several different conflicting meanings.

    Multiple conflicting meanings is the definition of confusion.  Confusion on a word means there's no agreement.  Lack of agreement means the word is useless.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #71 on: July 27, 2021, 06:18:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 26, 2021, 05:02:43 PM
    Yes, you attend his funeral at the cemetery.  You skip the mass at the NO church or protestant building.
    .
    Emile, your failure to make distinctions is your problem.  It's "all or none" for you.  That's not how life works.
    You also, because you're a woman, put too much emphasis on society/family and not enough emphasis on principles/facts.  God made women to be this way, but it's not all good.  You need to recognize you have this built in bias and beware.
    Ah! Pax has it in for you, Emile, because you are a woman. What a hoot! :jester: :laugh1: :laugh2: :fryingpan:
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #72 on: July 27, 2021, 06:37:11 PM »
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    • Apologies for coming into this thread 5 pages late (I do not intend to get involved), and apologies again if anyone has already mentioned this, but Cardinal Ottaviani did not write the Intervention.
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    Offline Emile

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #73 on: July 27, 2021, 07:05:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on July 27, 2021, 06:18:32 PM
    Ah! Pax has it in for you, Emile, because you are a woman. What a hoot! :jester: :laugh1: :laugh2: :fryingpan:
    Thanks, Nadir. Us gals gotta stick together! ;)   :laugh1: :laugh1:
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #74 on: July 27, 2021, 07:20:43 PM »
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    Emile, because you are a woman.

    Argues like a woman.  Putting sentimentality over theology.  Misreading canon law out of emotion.
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