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Author Topic: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO  (Read 10150 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2021, 10:58:46 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 27, 2021, 10:49:34 AM
Yes, in the 70s and 80s, most did.  They had no other choice.  You either said the TLM outside of new-rome's authority, or you said the new mass along with the Modernists.  The lines were drawn back then.
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They did agree, in theory.  They also softened, over time, especially after the 1988 indult came into existence.
I can't speak to numbers, but archbishop Lefebvre told people they could attend the new mass FOR SUNDAY OBLIGATION if they felt obliged to which is a lot further than anyone here is even arguing for.  I've never heard any traditional clergy EXCEPT fr wathen say you can't go to a new mass for a funeral or wedding.  Now there probably are some, maybe they're correct, but that's definitely not a requirement to be a traditional Catholic just because you say it is.  Your accusing everyone who disagrees of bad will is uncharacteristically dimondite as well.  
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2021, 11:03:43 AM »
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Pax, you're basically saying that anyone who doesn't agree with the position of one particular Trad priest isn't a real trad, accusing of bad will, etc.  Its the kind of thing that isn't typical of you, and its somewhat surprising in this case.

No, that's not what I'm saying.  You can disagree with Fr Wathen on the DEGREE of evil of the new mass, but you cannot say that the new mass is ok, and call yourself a Trad.  There are many things in Tradition which are open for a debate (sede, BOD), this is not one of them.  Traditionalism was founded as a 1:1 reaction against the new mass.  This is a historical fact and cannot be debated.  To say otherwise is revisionist history, which imperils all the souls of the youth today (who weren't alive then), and I won't tolerate it.
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The secondary issue is the false interpretation of this canon, to apply to the new mass, ignoring ALL OTHER canons which apply AGAINST the new mass.  Such a reading of canon law is false, stupid, uncatholic and ridiculous. 
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All of you who would *passively* attend a new mass would (I hope) shudder in horror, if you were asked by a "family member" to *passively* follow her into an abortion clinic and watch the procedure.  You rightly see the evils against natural law, for God has written these laws onto every man's heart.  But you fail to see the evils of the new mass because one cannot reason to evils against Faith or supernatural goods.  Such recognition only comes from one's conscience (if it is properly formed) and also by actual grace.
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My chastising you all is an actual grace.  This is the only way you'll recognize the evils of the new mass, for your consciences are weak on the subject.  Hate me if you want, but this is for your own good.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2021, 11:06:40 AM »

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your accusing everyone who disagrees of bad will is uncharacteristically dimondite as well. 
Emile is of bad will because he is illogically self-interpreting the canon.  That's plain.
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Others are of bad will because they don't know history, and want to create their own idea of why Traditionalism started.  Most are converts so they wouldn't know.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2021, 11:08:12 AM »

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but archbishop Lefebvre told people they could attend the new mass FOR SUNDAY OBLIGATION if they felt obliged to which is a lot further than anyone here is even arguing for.

He didn't say that, but attached numerous distinctions and qualifications.  You're saying the above is wrong.  Why would you write it?
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Offline Stanley N

Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2021, 11:36:12 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 27, 2021, 11:03:43 AM
But you fail to see the evils of the new mass because one cannot reason to evils against Faith or supernatural goods. 
And yet the Church pre-V2 permitted Catholics to passively attend non-Cathoic services despite those services' evils against the Faith.
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The secondary issue is the false interpretation of this canon, to apply to the new mass

No, we are not saying Canon 1258 applies to the new mass. Among other reasons, the new mass has the appearances of an approved Catholic rite. It's an argument by analogy from something we assumed you would accept.
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Such recognition only comes from one's conscience (if it is properly formed) and also by actual grace. 
My chastising you all is an actual grace.
Has it ever occurred to you that that perhaps your conscience is not properly formed? Perhaps those chastizing you are vehicles of actual graces for you?

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