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Author Topic: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO  (Read 2902 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
« on: July 24, 2021, 01:46:01 PM »
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  • To be clear, when I say "occasionally" here I'm talking about attendance for non worship purposes, passively attending for a wedding or funeral or what have you.  I definitely agree that if you thought it was an appropriate place to worship, you'd for all intents and purposes fall under the Indult label.

    I think ultimately the issue doesn't predominately come down to liberalization pre Vatican II, Sede vs non sede, or most of the other things that people are making this about.

    I think it ultimately comes down to whether the NO is a Satanic parody of Christ's sacrifice vs if its simply a Protestantized service.

    *Perhaps I am ignorant on some level.*  I was never an NO Catholic. But from everything I'm aware, the changes were *predominately* designed to make the Mass look more like Cramner's Mass.  You've got the communion in the hand, you've got the table replacing the altar, versus populum, deemphasis at least in many cases on the sacrificial character of the mass, etc.  Oftentimes cheesy music.  Honestly things that remind me of my time in Protestantism.  Given that assumption i think the same principles regarding attendance would apply for a Protestant service.  I think you could go for a wedding, but you wouldn't commune there.

    However, some here seem to think that its more of a Satanic blasphemy than equivalent to a Protestant service.  If that's the case than I'm ignorant, but also if that's the case I'd agree with not attending, not even for a wedding or funeral.  I couldn't in good conscience "passively attend" a black mass, and I'm not aware of the church ever allowing that (as it has allowed passively attending Protestant churches.)

    If its inherently evil to go, then you shouldn't go.  The issue is whether the thing itself is a Satanic blasphemy that needs to be avoided at any and all costs (like a black mass) or if its more like a Protestant service (the thing itself is wrong but the Church lets you go for certain social reasons.)

    This is ultimately what the debate comes down to IMO.  


    Offline Emile

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #1 on: July 24, 2021, 02:15:30 PM »
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  •  The issue is whether the thing itself is a Satanic blasphemy that needs to be avoided at any and all costs (like a black mass) or if its more like a Protestant service (the thing itself is wrong but the Church lets you go for certain social reasons.)
     
    The protestant service is also itself a satanic blasphemy insofar as it is an intentional rejection of Catholic doctrine. The men who originally created the protestant services were (formerly) Catholics, as were the creators of the NO. That is why traditionalists apply canon 1258, and the expositions of the commentators, to the NO service as well.
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer


    Offline Emile

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #2 on: July 24, 2021, 02:41:07 PM »
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  • I forgot to add that the difference between an actual black mass and a protestant/NO service is that the black mass is overt worship offered to satan whereas the protestant/NO purports to be worship of God.
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #3 on: July 24, 2021, 02:42:50 PM »
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  • I see it as totally equivalent to a Protestant "Mass" and no argument I've heard so far has convinced me at all otherwise, but I'd also be interested in why people think it's on another level of evil entirely.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #4 on: July 24, 2021, 03:12:26 PM »
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  • I see it as totally equivalent to a Protestant "Mass" and no argument I've heard so far has convinced me at all otherwise, but I'd also be interested in why people think it's on another level of evil entirely.
    It seems like emotion to me, but the best sense I can make of the underlying logic is that some people really do think it's more like a black mass.


    Offline Marion

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #5 on: July 24, 2021, 03:33:45 PM »
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  • Protestants sell their service as a protestant supper.

    NO sell their supper as a Catholic Mass.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #6 on: July 24, 2021, 04:33:15 PM »
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  • It seems like emotion to me, but the best sense I can make of the underlying logic is that some people really do think it's more like a black mass.
    I think the intention of those at a black mass are entirely different from most in attendance at the NO.
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #7 on: July 24, 2021, 06:05:48 PM »
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  • Quote
    Satanic parody of Christ's sacrifice vs if its simply a Protestantized service.
    Both are still a blasphemy.  Both are a fake sacrifice.  Both are anti-catholic.  Etc etc
    .
    If you read +Ottaviani’s rebuke of the new mass (which is just a summary of problems), you’ll see why he called it anti-Trent.  This is proof enough that it’s offensive to God in a great way.  
    .
    +Ottaviani’s study is free online. 


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #8 on: July 24, 2021, 06:36:01 PM »
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  • Any trad priest of any background will give the same answer on this, since it is exactly the answer given in any book of moral theology. A person can attend a non-Catholic wedding or funeral if necessary for social purposes, i.e. if the person getting married/buried is a family member or friend. While attending such a ceremony, someone must not participate actively in the religious activities, but only remain passive, such as by sitting through the whole thing in the back of the church.
    .
    A Novus Ordo service is a non-Catholic ceremony, and thus comes under the above rule.
    .
    Anyone saying the Novus Ordo is some exception, such that it would still be a sin even to be passively present and not participating at a wedding or funeral, is incorrect and should be ignored.
    .
    You don't have to trust me on this. You can ask any trad priest you want and you'll hear the same thing.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #9 on: July 24, 2021, 06:36:10 PM »
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  • It seems like emotion to me, but the best sense I can make of the underlying logic is that some people really do think it's more like a black mass.
    I can see why people would think that, given it's Freemasonic roots in man-centric worship. Plus the potential for those NO services that may have a valid consecration (mainly in those few offered by the remaining valid priests) of an end towards sacrilege.

    But, in my opinion, I don't think the creators of the NOM specifically had sacrilege in mind like a Black Mass would. I think the aim was more to dilute and kill the Faith of Catholics and remove the Real Presence over time, especially with the extremely doubtful new rite of the consecration of Bishops which followed. It is most satanic in an implicit way, rather than explicit such as with a Black Mass.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #10 on: July 25, 2021, 01:49:14 AM »
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  • Both are still a blasphemy.  Both are a fake sacrifice.  Both are anti-catholic.  Etc etc
    .
    If you read +Ottaviani’s rebuke of the new mass (which is just a summary of problems), you’ll see why he called it anti-Trent.  This is proof enough that it’s offensive to God in a great way.  
    .
    +Ottaviani’s study is free online.
    Ottaviani is one of the theologians whose books I'd push -- he's classic Traditional Catholic. The earliest Traditional Catholics were all familiar with the Ottaviani Intervention, and it formed part of the foundation or justification for the whole Traditional Movement.
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #11 on: July 25, 2021, 04:11:47 AM »
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  • I consider attendance at the novus ordo like attendance at a service of materially heretical Protestants.
    In general, neither group is there to deliberately engage in heretical or demonic worship.  For a few Catholics, those whom you know who truly have the Faith, but have yet to discover or have access to traditional Mass, I sit with family or friends and pray from my own missal.  I definitely draw the line regarding communion or being a sponsor or the like. 
    Example, I prayed the Rosary with everyone else at my grandmother’s funeral Mass. She was 102. Regardless of it being a novus ordo, she knew and practiced the Catholic faith better than most who today call themselves traditional.  At the time, 2001, I had never heard of tradition except as an historical entity.  If I went to church at all, it was to whatever Protestant church I was ‘checking out’ in search of God.  I’d given up on the Catholics by the mid-1970s.  Despite the disdain of many Protestants for the Rosary or anything to do with Mary, I had an attraction to it and Her that I kept to myself for decades.  
    I did the same at the novus ordo funerals of my Uncle and Aunt, both of whom had the Faith.  By then, 2009 and 2013, I had “discovered” tradition.  At a Confirmation, a Baptism, and two more novus ordo funerals of non-family members who I didn’t know very well, I did exactly as I’d do at a Protestant service, sat towards the back, present out of professional obligation or respect, and silently prayed the Rosary or sat quietly.  

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #12 on: July 25, 2021, 07:48:03 AM »
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  • Both are still a blasphemy.  Both are a fake sacrifice.  Both are anti-catholic.  Etc etc
    .
    If you read +Ottaviani’s rebuke of the new mass (which is just a summary of problems), you’ll see why he called it anti-Trent.  This is proof enough that it’s offensive to God in a great way.  
    .
    +Ottaviani’s study is free online.
    Exactly. A Protestant fake-Mass is a Satanic parody of the Mass just like the NO. So why was it not a sin to attend a Protestant wedding pre-V2 but it's a mortal sin to attend an NO wedding?

    Offline JOANORCM

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #13 on: July 25, 2021, 01:19:31 PM »
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  • The last time I attended a NO apart from a funeral, etc. was 1978. I had just become a Catholic and didn't know any better. I found the trad movement 2 months later (back then it consisted of ORCM, SSPX, Ave Maria Chapel in NY, and I think the Abbe de Nantes in France).

    The last/only time since 1978 that I attended one was in the 2000s for a funeral.
    2 Thessalonians 2

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
    « Reply #14 on: July 25, 2021, 02:15:35 PM »
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  • Quote
    Exactly. A Protestant fake-Mass is a Satanic parody of the Mass just like the NO. So why was it not a sin to attend a Protestant wedding pre-V2 but it's a mortal sin to attend an NO wedding?

    If you are comparing simply the NO wedding with a Protestant wedding, you are correct.  The difference, which you fail to recognize, is that if the NO wedding also includes a new mass, that is the clinching factor that you cannot attend.
    .
    It's shocking to me that so many of you have no principles on why we avoid the new mass 100%.  That is part of being a Traditional Catholic.  If you have some exceptions in mind on why it's ok to attend *sometimes*, then your refusal to attend it is not based on doctrine/theology, but pure sentimentality ("it's not as good", "it's inferior", etc).
    .
    Again, if you understood what the True Mass is, how holy it is, how perfect in God's eyes it is, then ANYTHING which makes it less holy or less perfect is an ABOMINATION.  Let's not forget that God despised Cain's offering, simply because Cain made it with a "not as good" intention.
    .
    God is perfect and all-holy.  Thus, the Mass we offer to Him MUST be perfect and all-holy.  This is what He deserves, as Our Creator.  If we give scandal by "passively" attending a NO, we sin by 2 of nine ways of being an accessory to sin - silence and consent.  Thus, we give scandal to everyone else there.  
    .
    It waters down the whole Trad movement if we give into the new mass, because then we send the message that Traditionalism is simply a "preference".  If you can go for weddings/funerals, why can't you go for other special occasions, like Christmas, Easter and New Years?  It's a slippery slope of bad logic, poor theology and a betrayal of doctrine.