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Author Topic: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO  (Read 10135 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2021, 12:49:33 PM »

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No, we are not saying Canon 1258 applies to the new mass.

Emile is.  If you're not, then you should be disagreeing with Emile, not me.
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It specifically states: "Merely passive or material presence may be tolerated..."  It doesn't say it IS tolerated (or permitted, for that matter), but that it MAY be tolerated. 

The Catholic Church did not give a "free pass" to Catholics, to attend non-Catholic ceremonies or service, even passively.
Exactly.  But people who want to do their own bidding, gloss over the differences in meaning of "may", "is", "tolerate", "allowed", etc.  And they ignore all other canons which contradict their new interpretation.
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Offline ByzCat3000

Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2021, 01:07:04 PM »
Pax I don't hate you and I'm not offended. I think you're being a little bit ridiculous but that's neither here nor there.

If you support the NO you can't be a trad I agree.  None of us here supports the NO though. We're discussing whether or not the same canonical provisions that apply to Protestant services also apply to the new Mass. It's probable that they do but not certain.

Honestly if that makes me not traditional so be it I don't really care. I don't care about the label. But I do think archbishop Lefebvre  did what was needed to save the church, that we should not worship at the new Mass, and that assisi definitively demonstrates that the church is in crisis such that the SSPX and similar organizations need to minister, preach, and worship even without the approval of Rome. If that doesn't make me a traditionalist I don't really care, but that's why I'm not indult 
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
« Reply #67 on: July 27, 2021, 02:22:57 PM »
Byzcat, you raise a good point, that the word "Traditionalist" no longer has any meaning, as it once did.  In the 70s and 80s, there were 2 camps - Trads vs Modernists.  Now you have many different "flavors" of pro-TLM, most of whom don't have the strict standards of the 70s/80s.  And anyone who simply "likes" the TLM considers himself a Trad.  The word is dead and has lost all meaning.  So have most doctrines.  So be it.  God will sort it out. 
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2021, 02:49:04 PM »

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Has it ever occurred to you that that perhaps your conscience is not properly formed? Perhaps those chastizing you are vehicles of actual graces for you?

No, because I know history.  I know the Fr Wathen's, Fr Hennifan's, Fr Gomar Depaw's, Bishop Castro Meyers, etc of the world.  The Michael Davies' of the world.  And the many european priests/monks whose names I cannot spell.  They all agreed on the stance against the new mass.  They were all well educated in pre-V2 orthodoxy.
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People like Emile aren't arguing for something, aren't standing on any principle.  They are merely arguing for an exception, a toleration, a permission.  This proves they don't really agree with the principle in the first place, because they are hyper-focused on the exception and on the "gray area".
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Offline ByzCat3000

Re: The real issue between occasionally and never attending NO
« Reply #69 on: July 27, 2021, 03:53:09 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 27, 2021, 02:22:57 PM
Byzcat, you raise a good point, that the word "Traditionalist" no longer has any meaning, as it once did.  In the 70s and 80s, there were 2 camps - Trads vs Modernists.  Now you have many different "flavors" of pro-TLM, most of whom don't have the strict standards of the 70s/80s.  And anyone who simply "likes" the TLM considers himself a Trad.  The word is dead and has lost all meaning.  So have most doctrines.  So be it.  God will sort it out.
I mean I was born in '95 and am a recent convert so I get that there's gonna be different perspective on things.

But I still sorta think this is majoring on minors.  I don't think Traditional Catholic is *meaningless*, but part of the issue is it has several different conflicting meanings.  personally I consider FSSP/Indult groups to be "semi-trad" because at the end of the day, obedience comes first for them and tradition comes second.  So I guess I see Tradition as primary as the defintion for "tradition."  But I guess just because I think that doesn't mean its right,
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