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Author Topic: Re: the Quinity?  (Read 3447 times)

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Re: the Quinity?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2020, 01:54:46 PM »
I was born in 1951 and began training as an altar server in 4th. grade as I recall.  My recollection of the bells at the Consecration is 1-3-1, but that was a long time ago.
 
The Saint Joseph Daily Missal 1951 Edition says “After pronouncing the words of Consecration, the Priest genuflects, and adores the Sacred Host.  He then rises, elevates It, and replaces it upon the corporal, genuflecting once again.  The bell rings once for each act of adoration”.  I presume the “act of adoration” is the genuflection.  The same is written for the Consecration of the wine.
 
The St. Andrew Daily Missal 1958 Edition does not mention bells (nor does it show a bell image) at the Sanctus, the Hanc igitur, nor the Consecration.
 
The Saint Joseph Daily Missal 1961 Edition is imprecise.  It says “After pronouncing the words of Consecration, the Priest genuflects, and adores the Sacred Host.  He then rises, elevates It, and replaces It upon the corporal, genuflecting once again.  The bell rings once for each act of adoration”.  At the elevation of the Host three bells are shown.  At the Consecration of the Wine (on the Latin side of the page) bells are not mentioned nor shown.  On the English side of the page, at the conclusion of the  Consecration of the Wine, all it says is “The Priest adores the Precious Blood: you do likewise.  The bell rings 3 times".
 
I have a book called “Matters Liturgical” (The Collectio Rerum Liturgicarum of Rev. Joseph Wuest, C.SS.R.).  It was first published in Latin in 1889 and the first English translation was made in 1925 by Rev. Thomas Mullaney, C.SS.R.  My copy is the Eighth English edition, re-arranged and enlarged by Rev. William Barry, C.SS.R, S.S.L in 1955.  It says “At each Elevation after the Consecration the altar bell shall be rung either three times or continuously.  This rubric is variously interpreted.  But a widely accepted practice is to ring the bell at the genuflection before the Elevation, at the Elevation itself, and at the genuflection after the Elevation".  How many times the bell is or should be rung at the genuflection is not stated.  The book gives this reference: S.L.P.: I, B. 251; L. O’Connell: P. 166 but I didn't find what exactly this reference is, though I didn't look too hard either.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: the Quinity?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2020, 02:06:23 PM »
Again, there is no 5.  Just a 1, then a 3, then another 1.  At different times in the Mass there might be a single ring or a set of 3 rings.  

This is a waste of time.  I suspect that there’s no mention of bells at all in the official Missale Romanum and so it’s just a matter of custom.


Offline Matthew

  • Mod
Re: the Quinity?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2020, 02:12:51 PM »
Again, there is no 5.  Just a 1, then a 3, then another 1.  At different times in the Mass there might be a single ring or a set of 3 rings.  

This is a waste of time.  I suspect that there’s no mention of bells at all in the official Missale Romanum and so it’s just a matter of custom.

True.

But then again, some Trads think that the 1962 Missale somehow causes a loss of Faith or other deleterious effects, either through the addition of St. Joseph to the canon, Bugnini's "fingerprints" being on the Missale, or some combination of these.  So nothing surprises me.

Meanwhile, smart people observe no difference in "results" between the 1962 and older versions of the Missale -- all other things being equal. This point is crucial. The Indult uses the 1962 Missale, but they don't do as well because they accept Vatican II, they are under the authority of Modernists, they share facilities with the Novus Ordo, etc.

So when comparing the "output" or results of various Missales, you have to correct for major differences like this, which is difficult to do. I look at independent and other solid "Trad" chapels personally, and I see no differences in my long experience.

Offline Mark 79

  • Supporter
Re: the Quinity?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2020, 03:16:10 PM »
Where does it say in any missal that the bells should be rung at all when the priest genuflects, before and after?

I've seen the little 3 bell graphics in all the missals I've used and seen -- and that's quite a few, I should point out -- but never does it say when those 3 bells should be rung.

Many Trads (with an unbroken line to the past, didn't have to rediscover or learn Tradition from a book) interpreted that as "3 rings at the elevation", plus a ring for the genuflection before and after.

The SSPX seems to interpret that as 3 rings total, leaving just 1 for the elevation itself. It seems to be another legit interpretation, and it has symmetry, etc. so it "works" for Mass: sufficient beauty and decorum, does the job, etc.

They both get the job done (alerting the Faithful to the Elevation of the Host, for purposes of adoration), so who the flip cares? It's a total non-issue. We have much bigger fish to fry, in the SSPX and elsewhere.
Non-responsive.

Who is name-calling? Give me a break.
Non-responsive.

Give me a break. "Idiotic."
It's a legitimate concern about rubrics.
And, if anything was "idiotic," it was all your non-responsive blather. Only moneil brought a reasonably authoritative source to bear.

True.

But then again, some Trads think that the 1962 Missale somehow causes a loss of Faith or other deleterious effects, either through the addition of St. Joseph to the canon, Bugnini's "fingerprints" being on the Missale, or some combination of these.  So nothing surprises me.

Meanwhile, smart people observe no difference in "results" between the 1962 and older versions of the Missale -- all other things being equal. This point is crucial. The Indult uses the 1962 Missale, but they don't do as well because they accept Vatican II, they are under the authority of Modernists, they share facilities with the Novus Ordo, etc.

So when comparing the "output" or results of various Missales, you have to correct for major differences like this, which is difficult to do. I look at independent and other solid "Trad" chapels personally, and I see no differences in my long experience.
Non-responsive.

Again, there is no 5.  Just a 1, then a 3, then another 1.  At different times in the Mass there might be a single ring or a set of 3 rings.  

This is a waste of time.  I suspect that there’s no mention of bells at all in the official Missale Romanum and so it’s just a matter of custom.
Non-responsive.

Offline Mark 79

  • Supporter
Re: the Quinity?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2020, 03:21:58 PM »
I was born in 1951 and began training as an altar server in 4th. grade as I recall.  My recollection of the bells at the Consecration is 1-3-1, but that was a long time ago.
 
The Saint Joseph Daily Missal 1951 Edition says “After pronouncing the words of Consecration, the Priest genuflects, and adores the Sacred Host.  He then rises, elevates It, and replaces it upon the corporal, genuflecting once again.  The bell rings once for each act of adoration”.  I presume the “act of adoration” is the genuflection.  The same is written for the Consecration of the wine.
 
The St. Andrew Daily Missal 1958 Edition does not mention bells (nor does it show a bell image) at the Sanctus, the Hanc igitur, nor the Consecration.
 
The Saint Joseph Daily Missal 1961 Edition is imprecise.  It says “After pronouncing the words of Consecration, the Priest genuflects, and adores the Sacred Host.  He then rises, elevates It, and replaces It upon the corporal, genuflecting once again.  The bell rings once for each act of adoration”.  At the elevation of the Host three bells are shown.  At the Consecration of the Wine (on the Latin side of the page) bells are not mentioned nor shown.  On the English side of the page, at the conclusion of the  Consecration of the Wine, all it says is “The Priest adores the Precious Blood: you do likewise.  The bell rings 3 times".
 
I have a book called “Matters Liturgical” (The Collectio Rerum Liturgicarum of Rev. Joseph Wuest, C.SS.R.).  It was first published in Latin in 1889 and the first English translation was made in 1925 by Rev. Thomas Mullaney, C.SS.R.  My copy is the Eighth English edition, re-arranged and enlarged by Rev. William Barry, C.SS.R, S.S.L in 1955.  It says “At each Elevation after the Consecration the altar bell shall be rung either three times or continuously.  This rubric is variously interpreted.  But a widely accepted practice is to ring the bell at the genuflection before the Elevation, at the Elevation itself, and at the genuflection after the Elevation".  How many times the bell is or should be rung at the genuflection is not stated.  The book gives this reference: S.L.P.: I, B. 251; L. O’Connell: P. 166 but I didn't find what exactly this reference is, though I didn't look too hard either.
Responsive. Winner.
And my recollection is the opposite—3, not 5/1-3-1.
Missal scans to follow.