Author Topic: The process for deposing a pope? (Read 3613 times)

soulguard · « **on:** December 11, 2013, 12:03:20 PM »

What is the process for deposing a pope?

From what I gather, when a pope incurs Ipso Facto excommunication for being a heretic, there must be some process to depose him. If there were not some process, why then, would saints and popes have written on the subject of what happens when a pope is a heretic.

My questions are:
Is it necessary to have some formal process for deposing a pope?
AND
Can the laity be utilised in that process?
AND
What happens if the cardinals and bishops are unwilling to depose him? Is the judgement of the church seen in their actions, and this is an important question because IF they are also heretics, does that mean that the duty of deposing a papal claimant devolves to the laity?

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #1 on:** December 11, 2013, 12:08:44 PM »

Deposing a pope? Who? Pope Francis? I thought sedes didn't consider him to be pope.

soulguard · « **Reply #2 on:** December 11, 2013, 12:13:40 PM »

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

Deposing a pope? Who? Pope Francis? I thought sedes didn't consider him to be pope.

You fool. You read too much into my questions. You know who I talk about and why I want theological info on how this ought to be done.

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #3 on:** December 11, 2013, 12:35:49 PM »

Quote from: soulguard

Quote from: LaramieHirsch
Deposing a pope? Who? Pope Francis? I thought sedes didn't consider him to be pope.

You fool.

And I'm the one labeled "self-grandiose"

Let the jury note that I have called you nothing derogatory.

soulguard · « **Reply #4 on:** December 11, 2013, 12:41:20 PM »

Enough. This thread is not about you, nor for you, since I am after all a "schismatic" according to you. And you say you call me nothing derogatory?

This thread was to get answers on this topic, it is not about you nor for you..

Matto · « **Reply #5 on:** December 11, 2013, 12:43:45 PM »

This is a good question. Though I have heard from sedevacantists many times that a Pope who falls into heresy is ipso facto removed from office, I can't remember hearing the process how he would be deposed and replaced by a true Pope.

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #6 on:** December 11, 2013, 12:47:21 PM »

Of course this thread is not about me. The thread is about you and your question. And in regards to your question, I merely wanted a little clarification.

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

Deposing a pope? Who? Pope Francis? I thought sedes didn't consider him to be pope.

soulguard · « **Reply #7 on:** December 11, 2013, 12:50:26 PM »

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

Of course this thread is not about me. The thread is about you and your question. And in regards to your question, I merely wanted a little clarification.

Quote from: LaramieHirsch
Deposing a pope? Who? Pope Francis? I thought sedes didn't consider him to be pope.

The clarification is this.
Once a man who is installed as pope becomes known as a heretic, and incurs the sentence of excommunication. What happens?

Another question that just came to mind is whether or not a known heretic could be installed as pope in the first place?

:reading:

Stubborn · « **Reply #8 on:** December 11, 2013, 01:06:47 PM »

Quote from: soulguard

Quote from: LaramieHirsch
Of course this thread is not about me. The thread is about you and your question. And in regards to your question, I merely wanted a little clarification.

Quote from: LaramieHirsch
Deposing a pope? Who? Pope Francis? I thought sedes didn't consider him to be pope.

The clarification is this.
Once a man who is installed as pope becomes known as a heretic, and incurs the sentence of excommunication. What happens?

Another question that just came to mind is whether or not a known heretic could be installed as pope in the first place?

:reading:

According to the popular (though not universal) SV theory, a true pope cannot become a heretic.

Other than that, the only known process of deposing a pope is for the pope to either retire or die.

That's it.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #9 on:** December 11, 2013, 01:38:40 PM »

From Canon Law, A Text and Commentary, by Bouscaren and Ellis;
In the second section of Chapter IX "Leaving the Religious Life" under the heading "Involuntary Leaving", the second Article "Dismissal by the Law Itself" says, "The commission of certain very grave crimes has the effect of expelling the culpable religious ipso facto, that is, the religious is dismissed by the law itself. The terms of this canon are to be interpreted strictly, that is, all the conditions laid down must be actually present before such a grave penalty can be said to be incurred. A crime of this type would be A religious who has publicly apostatized from the Catholic faith (c. 646, §1, 1°): Apostasy is defined in canon 1325, §2, as the complete abandonment of the Christian faith. The apostasy from the Catholic faith must be public, which means according to canon 2197, 1°, that either the fact is already known by a large number of people, or that the circuмstances of the apostasy are such that one must prudently judge that it will easily become known."

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #10 on:** December 11, 2013, 01:48:45 PM »

To my knowledge, there is no known method of deposing a pope. Now, with Francis espousing heretic-leaning statements on a regular basis, the safe course would be to just not follow him and steer clear of the novus ordo.

Either a future council will correct the conciliar heresy (1959-present) or we are in the last days. Last days could mean the end of the world or the end of grace (another issue that hasn't really been discussed. God is not our slave. We are the beneficiaries of grace and this could be withdrawn if we are not worthy. Our Lord does not need us, we receive grace from his bounteousness and desire to share these graces with us.)

SJB · « **Reply #11 on:** December 11, 2013, 01:55:42 PM »

Quote from: Matto

This is a good question. Though I have heard from sedevacantists many times that a Pope who falls into heresy is ipso facto removed from office, I can't remember hearing the process how he would be deposed and replaced by a true Pope.

Bishop Zinelli, a Relator of the Faith at Vatican I, recognized the pious opinion that a pope could never become a heretic, demonstrating how far from the mind of the Church is the idea that a pope could become a heretic, but he did not adopt this doctrine as a certain doctrine.

Quote

"Confident in supernatural Providence, we judge it to be quite probable that that will never happen. But God does not fail in the things that are necessary; therefore, if He permits so great an evil, the means to remedy such a situation will not be lacking." – Bp. Zinnelli, Relator of the Faith, Vatican I

Ladislaus · « **Reply #12 on:** December 11, 2013, 03:45:16 PM »

But that "pious opinion" doesn't preclude someone who's outside the Church to begin with from claiming the See unlawfully.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #13 on:** December 11, 2013, 03:50:04 PM »

Short Answer: Strictly speaking, no one can formally "depose" a Pope ... unless you're making the typical distinction regarding material deposition. Probably just semantics though.

In terms of declaring a Pope deposed or a papal claimant to be a non-Pope, most theologians suggest that a Church Council would have to do that.

TKGS · « **Reply #14 on:** December 11, 2013, 05:39:43 PM »

No pope can be deposed. It is that simple.

On the other hand, if an heretic somehow is elected, the Apostolic Constitution, Ex cuм Apostolatus officio, provides that, should it become necessary to expel the usurper from exercising his ill-gotten powers, the faithful "shall be permitted to request the assistance of the secular arm against these same individuals thus promoted or elevated."

At the time this was promulgated, February 15, 1559, this would mean that we could appeal to the Holy Roman Emperor to forcibly evict the usurper from Rome, arrest him, and punish him according to his crimes in order to place a Catholic upon the Chair of Saint Peter.

Today, in 2013, I know of no secular power to whom the faith can appeal. So, although we all have the legal authority under Ex cuм Apostolatus officio to ignore the current papal claimant with impunity (provided we do so because we recognize him as a usurper, an anti-pope), the Catholic secular authorities have been severed from the Church and the Church from the secular authorities. I believe the Modernists made the separation of Church and State one of their first priorities (even before destroying the Catholic sacraments) in order to protect themselves from even a remote possibility of being forced from office under the authority of the Apostolic Constitution cited.

Perhaps we should appeal to Karl von Habsburg, the living successor to the Holy Roman Empire.