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Author Topic: The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity  (Read 2694 times)

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Offline Matthew

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The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
« on: February 02, 2014, 02:11:26 PM »
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  • Sedevacantists seem to hold no unity of practice, or even unity of doctrine.

    There are plenty of "branch points" or points of division in the Sedevacantist camp. The single issue, "Is the man Jorge Bergoglio the current Pope?" is almost tiny compared to the doctrinal issues at stake.

    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/So-You-Decided-To-Become-A-Sedevacantist

    Here's what I don't like about Sedevacantism:

    1. A man making it to Mass every 6-8 weeks instead of attending an SSPX Mass 20 minutes away, because of a mistaken belief in the "Una cuм" prohibition pushed by a mere handful of extreme-position-holding Sede priests. Some sedevacantists (who I know well on CathInfo) would gush about how good it is to have doctrinal purity, "the FULL package of the truth", etc. but let me tell you: This man's life is all kinds of disorder, and his spiritual life is in shambles. He would be much better off attending a good SSPX chapel, hands-down.

    2. A man nodding politely or acting like he doesn't care every time I bring up any news of the Resistance, or anything about a Resistance priest. Nevermind that we're talking about the true heirs of the SSPX, one of the largest forces in the Traditional movement! But I've met sedevacantists who act like I'm talking about some pastors in a Lutheran church! They must, deep-down, consider the SSPX (and even the Resistance!) to be non-Catholic.

    3. Dogmatic sedevacantists. Need I say more? Anyone who makes a vacant chair of Peter into a dogma needs to have his head examined. The Church never declared the Vacant See to be a dogma of the Faith. To consider sedevacantism as a prerequisite for membership in the Catholic Church is ludicrous, crazy, insane, and ridiculous. And preposterous.

    4. Conclavists. These are the ones who take Sedevacantism to its LOGICAL conclusion. Don't have a pope? We need to elect one! Enter Pope Michael and all the other candidates for the true Papal Throne. Who can argue against them? Once you've concluded there's no Pope, you add some simple truths to that (the Church is a visible organization; the Church must have a head, etc.) you reach the conclusion to hold a conclave.

    People criticize the (Lefebvre) SSPX position as being "on the fence" or full of contradictions -- but what about most sedevacantists on CathInfo?  They reject the pope, but for reasons of human respect, not being embarrassed, etc. they reject any attempts to rectify that problem by holding a Papal election.

    They're holding to "Sedevacantism Lite(tm)" which is much less embarrassing before your Catholic brothers.

    If you deny the Pope is the pope, but you are against electing a new one: Why? How is that any different from Recognize & Resist? You seem to be leaving a light on for the Pope, as it were. You're keeping a place at the table for him. You're still wearing your wedding ring years after the funeral.

    If he's "gone", why not replace him?

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    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
    « Reply #1 on: February 02, 2014, 02:28:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Sedevacantists seem to hold no unity of practice, or even unity of doctrine.

    There are plenty of "branch points" or points of division in the Sedevacantist camp. The single issue, "Is the man Jorge Bergoglio the current Pope?" is almost tiny compared to the doctrinal issues at stake.


    Here's what I don't like about Sedevacantism:

    1. A man making it to Mass every 6-8 weeks instead of attending an SSPX Mass 20 minutes away, because of a mistaken belief in the "Una cuм" prohibition pushed by a mere handful of extreme-position-holding Sede priests. Some sedevacantists (who I know well on CathInfo) would gush about how good it is to have doctrinal purity, "the FULL package of the truth", etc. but let me tell you: This man's life is all kinds of disorder, and his spiritual life is in shambles. He would be much better off attending a good SSPX chapel, hands-down.

    2. A man nodding politely or acting like he doesn't care every time I bring up any news of the Resistance, or anything about a Resistance priest. Nevermind that we're talking about the true heirs of the SSPX, one of the largest forces in the Traditional movement! But I've met sedevacantists who act like I'm talking about some pastors in a Lutheran church! They must, deep-down, consider the SSPX (and even the Resistance!) to be non-Catholic.

    3. Dogmatic sedevacantists. Need I say more? Anyone who makes a vacant chair of Peter into a dogma needs to have his head examined. The Church never declared the Vacant See to be a dogma of the Faith. To consider sedevacantism as a prerequisite for membership in the Catholic Church is ludicrous, crazy, insane, and ridiculous. And preposterous.

    4. Conclavists. These are the ones who take Sedevacantism to its LOGICAL conclusion. Don't have a pope? We need to elect one! Enter Pope Michael and all the other candidates for the true Papal Throne. Who can argue against them? Once you've concluded there's no Pope, you add some simple truths to that (the Church is a visible organization; the Church must have a head, etc.) you reach the conclusion to hold a conclave.

    People criticize the (Lefebvre) SSPX position as being "on the fence" or full of contradictions -- but what about most sedevacantists on CathInfo?  They reject the pope, but for reasons of human respect, not being
     embarrassed, etc. they reject any attempts to rectify that problem by holding a Papal election.

    They're holding to "Sedevacantism Lite(tm)" which is much less embarrassing before your Catholic brothers.

    If you deny the Pope is the pope, but you are against electing a new one: Why? How is that any different from Recognize & Resist? You seem to be leaving a light on for the Pope, as it were. You're keeping a place at the table for him. You're still wearing your wedding ring.

    If he's "gone", why not replace him?


    1. I'm a sede and go to sspx mass
    2. Im a sede and attended a resistance mass,
    4. why not replace him? who will replace him, this question is a little puzzling to me?


    Offline Matthew

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    The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
    « Reply #2 on: February 02, 2014, 02:36:54 PM »
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  • I note that most Sedes on CathInfo (also known as "the sane ones") are OK with attending an SSPX-affiliated Mass.

    Nevertheless, most sedes on here ALSO are not "conclavist" -- they're not for the idea of holding a conclave to elect a new pope.

    Even though we have, according to them, been without a pope for 50+ years.

    Isn't it about time we got a Pope? I mean, seriously? What's the longest interregnum in Church history? It can't be measured in decades.
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    Offline Mabel

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    The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
    « Reply #3 on: February 02, 2014, 02:46:45 PM »
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  • None of what you have written describes me, as a sedevantist, in the least. When I meet a "sede" that starts pushing one of the point you mention, I back away slowly.

    I don't think it is fair to judge a position by one, or many, person's spiritual life. It might be a factor but I've know pious Catholics who hold all positions, even home-aloners who could put the rest of us to shame by their piety.

    Offline insidebaseball

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    The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
    « Reply #4 on: February 02, 2014, 02:50:52 PM »
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  • I agree with points 1,2,3, but not your editorial take on point 4.   Let me give you my take on why sede has become such a dirty word with many sspxers.  When the nine left back in the eighties, they made their reasons for leaving more than just principles.  They made it personal and that was uncharitable to say the least.  Just like in any war, you learn the tactics of the enemy and adjust to the lessons of the battle field.  The same uncharitable tactics have been effectively employed against any and all those opposed to the sspx position or non-position regarding the hierarchy.  We can keep fostering disunity, or maybe adopt Fr. William Jenkins position of not discussing "his" private papal position.  Brilliant in my opinion.  


    Online 2Vermont

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    The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
    « Reply #5 on: February 02, 2014, 02:58:46 PM »
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  •  :fryingpan:
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Online 2Vermont

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    The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
    « Reply #6 on: February 02, 2014, 03:16:27 PM »
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  • Is it really that difficult to get?  Despite the fact that we are capable of coming to our own conclusions on whether the seat is vacant (whether we're right or not or whether the non-SV's agree with us or not), we can not physically elect a new pope.



    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Matto

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    The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
    « Reply #7 on: February 02, 2014, 03:24:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    we can not physically elect a new pope.

    Will there ever be a Pope again? If so, how will that happen if we cannot elect a Pope?
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Online 2Vermont

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    The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
    « Reply #8 on: February 02, 2014, 03:27:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    we can not physically elect a new pope.

    Will there ever be a Pope again? If so, how will that happen if we cannot elect a Pope?


    I'm not getting into this as a debate.  Right now I'm sensing a number of threads that are anti-SV an quite frankly it pisses me off.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
    « Reply #9 on: February 02, 2014, 03:31:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Sedevacantists seem to hold no unity of practice, or even unity of doctrine.

    There are plenty of "branch points" or points of division in the Sedevacantist camp. The single issue, "Is the man Jorge Bergoglio the current Pope?" is almost tiny compared to the doctrinal issues at stake.

    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/So-You-Decided-To-Become-A-Sedevacantist

    Here's what I don't like about Sedevacantism:

    1. A man making it to Mass every 6-8 weeks instead of attending an SSPX Mass 20 minutes away, because of a mistaken belief in the "Una cuм" prohibition pushed by a mere handful of extreme-position-holding Sede priests. Some sedevacantists (who I know well on CathInfo) would gush about how good it is to have doctrinal purity, "the FULL package of the truth", etc. but let me tell you: This man's life is all kinds of disorder, and his spiritual life is in shambles. He would be much better off attending a good SSPX chapel, hands-down.

    2. A man nodding politely or acting like he doesn't care every time I bring up any news of the Resistance, or anything about a Resistance priest. Nevermind that we're talking about the true heirs of the SSPX, one of the largest forces in the Traditional movement! But I've met sedevacantists who act like I'm talking about some pastors in a Lutheran church! They must, deep-down, consider the SSPX (and even the Resistance!) to be non-Catholic.

    3. Dogmatic sedevacantists. Need I say more? Anyone who makes a vacant chair of Peter into a dogma needs to have his head examined. The Church never declared the Vacant See to be a dogma of the Faith. To consider sedevacantism as a prerequisite for membership in the Catholic Church is ludicrous, crazy, insane, and ridiculous. And preposterous.

    4. Conclavists. These are the ones who take Sedevacantism to its LOGICAL conclusion. Don't have a pope? We need to elect one! Enter Pope Michael and all the other candidates for the true Papal Throne. Who can argue against them? Once you've concluded there's no Pope, you add some simple truths to that (the Church is a visible organization; the Church must have a head, etc.) you reach the conclusion to hold a conclave.

    People criticize the (Lefebvre) SSPX position as being "on the fence" or full of contradictions -- but what about most sedevacantists on CathInfo?  They reject the pope, but for reasons of human respect, not being embarrassed, etc. they reject any attempts to rectify that problem by holding a Papal election.

    They're holding to "Sedevacantism Lite(tm)" which is much less embarrassing before your Catholic brothers.

    If you deny the Pope is the pope, but you are against electing a new one: Why? How is that any different from Recognize & Resist? You seem to be leaving a light on for the Pope, as it were. You're keeping a place at the table for him. You're still wearing your wedding ring years after the funeral.

    If he's "gone", why not replace him?



    I must first say how grateful I am to have a thread posted that isn't about BOD.

    Your point about unity is ironic, considering that one will find the same thing going to SSPX chapels.  Some are fully on board with the new direction, others are ignorant of it, some are against it but won't stop attending the SSPX, others are against it, and will attend the SSPX when the Resistance isn't in town, and others have given up on it entirely.

    When the Shepherd is struck, the sheep will scatter.

    1. I think those who insist against una cuм are in the minority.  

    2. Your personal anecdotes are personal anecdotes.  Naturally if someone is not involved in the SSPX they won't really "care" what's going on there, in other words, would you be listening attentively at some divisive issue within the CMRI?  

    3. There are far more dogmatic sedeplenists than there are dogmatic sedevacantists.  Dogmatic sedevacantists are loathsome, but very few and far between.

    4. The logical conclusion of sedevacantism is that there is not currently a pope.  It does not logically follow from there that those without any authority to elect a pope must elect a pope.  Conclavists make up such a laughable minority of sedevacantists that they're not even worth bringing up.

    None of your "problems with sedevacantism" are actually problems with sedevacantism, they're problems with sedevacantists.  What do you find problematic about public heretics being excluded from holding office in the Church?  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Matto

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    The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
    « Reply #10 on: February 02, 2014, 04:04:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Right now I'm sensing a number of threads that are anti-SV an quite frankly it pisses me off.

    Aren't you used to it yet? Sedevacantists are treated like #### by nearly everyone else, even many traditional Catholics (though I for one am friendly to them).
    R.I.P.
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    Offline fast777

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    The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
    « Reply #11 on: February 02, 2014, 04:10:22 PM »
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  • I am new here. I am also a Catholic who recognised what the Concilar Church was back in the 1960's. I attended many masses of the SSPX back in the beginning.

    I am not a sedevacantist because all Popes so far are elected by Tradition.

    Even though I believe since PPVI going forward all these Popes are high degree Freemasons. They are still Pope....but bad Popes.

    If a priest asks me if I follow the Pope? I would answer only when he talks as the successor of Peter and not as a fallible man that he is. I do not follow because he is in error and because of my Catholic faith I have chose this decision.

    You can find fault with me but I have free will and until I have found fault with my well thought reason....this is what I believe.


    Online 2Vermont

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    The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
    « Reply #12 on: February 02, 2014, 04:14:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Right now I'm sensing a number of threads that are anti-SV an quite frankly it pisses me off.

    Aren't you used to it yet? Sedevacantists are treated like #### by nearly everyone else, even many traditional Catholics (though I for one am friendly to them).


    Apparently not. I'm also beginning to think that there are folks that say they are open to the position, but when push comes to shove they really aren't.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline songbird

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    The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
    « Reply #13 on: February 02, 2014, 04:19:39 PM »
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  • If clergy go against Quo Promum, which is well understood to be infallible, does that  not put the pope and all his clergy that say the New Order, all in disobedience?  Is that not Schismatic?

    Offline fast777

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    The problem with Sedevacantism - no unity
    « Reply #14 on: February 02, 2014, 04:53:19 PM »
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  • "But Church history confirms just how much fallibility God can choose to allow inside His Church: the bulk of the Church in heresy (Arianism), a “Robber Council” (at Ephesus), and popes wavering on the brink of formal heresy (Liberius, Honorius) – Mother Church has seen it all! However even such grave defections of the human churchmen are not incompatible with the Church’s divine indefectibility. Thus Our Lord Himself says of His Church at the end of the world that on the one hand it will still be there (Mt. XXVIII, 20), on the other hand it will be so reduced in size as to be almost not there: “But yet the Son of Man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?” (Lk. XVIII, 8).
    This dark prophecy is essential to a correct understanding of the Church’s divine gift of infallibility (or indefectibility in teaching). It means not that no bulk of the Church, no Council or no Pope will ever fall into error, but that (ordinary general infallibility) by a guarantee of God, the true and unchanging Deposit of the Faith will always be taught by the Church in a manner accessible to souls of good will down to the end of the world, while (derived particular infallibility) if the Pope as Pope ever imposes a definitive teaching of faith or morals upon the whole Church, God will specially protect him in that moment from teaching any error." BP Williamson
    - See more at: http://www.leofec.com/bishop-williamson/225.html#sthash.5jZqY5Dv.dpuf