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Author Topic: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...  (Read 12454 times)

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Offline PAT317

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Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2023, 07:10:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 12, 2023, 05:53:38 AM
     "for Lefebvre to have become a sedevacantist would have been tantamount to abandoning the souls under his care"

    In which post was this statement found?  
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #76 on: December 12, 2023, 08:00:46 AM »
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    • Quote
    that the "+Thuc line [consists] of priests running around trying to get consecrated"
    Yeah, this shows PV's lack of understanding of +Thuc's history and actions. 

    Don't be the male version of Meg, PV.  Just because someone disagreed with +ABL, doesn't mean they are wrong.  +ABL was not infallible and he didn't build Tradition single-handedly.

    Tradition would not be where it is today, had God not inspired many, many diocesan priests to leave their diocese and become independents.  They bridged the gap in the 70s/80s until the sspx and sede movements we know today could grow.  +Thuc was part of this independent movement.  It was necessary part of this time of history.  The sspx didn't really get going until the early 1990s (consecration of the 4 bishops was in 1988).  1969-1989 - that's 20 years.  Who do you think kept Tradition going for that time period?  A LOT of priests who weren't part of the sspx.
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    Offline PAT317

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #77 on: December 12, 2023, 09:15:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 12, 2023, 08:00:46 AM
    Yeah, this shows PV's lack of understanding of +Thuc's history and actions. 

    Don't be the male version of Meg, PV.  Just because someone disagreed with +ABL, doesn't mean they are wrong.  +ABL was not infallible and he didn't build Tradition single-handedly.

    Tradition would not be where it is today, had God not inspired many, many diocesan priests to leave their diocese and become independents.  They bridged the gap in the 70s/80s until the sspx and sede movements we know today could grow.  +Thuc was part of this independent movement.  It was necessary part of this time of history.  The sspx didn't really get going until the early 1990s (consecration of the 4 bishops was in 1988).  1969-1989 - that's 20 years.  Who do you think kept Tradition going for that time period?  A LOT of priests who weren't part of the sspx.

    I didn't take Plenus Venter to be saying what you seem to be making him say here.  Plenus Venter said “for me” - i.e. in his opinion, for himself, he finds +ABL & his faithful successors to be the best at fulfilling their sacred duty of handing on to us that which they received.  This is a discussion forum, and people share their opinions.  He stated very clearly, “For me, that means following…”  He said, “We all have to inform ourselves and follow the men of the Church we believe are best fulfilling…”  and for him, that is +ABL & his faithful successors. 

    If you disagree that’s the best, you can say so, but don’t put words in his mouth that he didn’t say, such as +ABL was the “only” one, there was no one else, etc.  He never said +ABL was "infallible" & "built Tradition single-handedly."  He did not discount or diminish the work that good individual priests did to keep Tradition.  He didn’t say there is nothing of value from these other good priests. 

    And regarding Archbishop Thục, PV mentioned that priests were running off to a bishop to have themselves consecrated by him.  Is that not the case?  Did Archbishop Thục seek out those men he consecrated, or did they seek him to get themselves consecrated? 

    [This is meant as a simple question, not to get into whether said consecrations were justified, good, etc.  Those are other topics already beaten to death on other threads.]
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #78 on: December 12, 2023, 09:41:48 AM »
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    • All of this are distractions. We need to focus on our goal to live with God in Heaven. 

    We need to Read our Bible and pray the Rosary.  We need to repent and believe.

    We need to live Christ like everyday. 

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    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #79 on: December 12, 2023, 09:43:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on December 12, 2023, 09:41:48 AM
    All of this is distractions. We need to focus on our goal to live with God in Heaven. 

    We need to Read our Bible and pray the Rosary.  We need to repent and believe.
     Yes but it's impossible to get to Heaven without the sacraments.  We need priests and bishops for that.  

    "Repent and believe" is protestant.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #80 on: December 12, 2023, 10:26:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: PAT317 on December 12, 2023, 09:15:51 AM
    And regarding Archbishop Thục, PV mentioned that priests were running off to a bishop to have themselves consecrated by him.  Is that not the case?  Did Archbishop Thục seek out those men he consecrated, or did they seek him to get themselves consecrated? 

    [This is meant as a simple question, not to get into whether said consecrations were justified, good, etc.  Those are other topics already beaten to death on other threads.]

    That's a good question regarding +Thuc. It would seem that priests were running after him in order to have themselves consecrated by him. Didn't +Thuc himself say something about that?

    I don't have anything against +Thuc at all. He seemed very sincere to me, and not a liar. That counts for a lot. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #81 on: December 12, 2023, 11:00:11 AM »
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    • Quote
    He never said +ABL was "infallible" & "built Tradition single-handedly."  He did not discount or diminish the work that good individual priests did to keep Tradition.
    He has implied such in other posts.  Many times.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #82 on: December 12, 2023, 11:21:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 12, 2023, 11:00:11 AM
    He has implied such in other posts.  Many times.

    When has he implied that +ABL was infallible?

    If you choose to reply to this post, please be honest, and do not lie. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #83 on: December 12, 2023, 12:32:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on December 12, 2023, 07:05:02 AM
    Gray....just as those of us here cannot "bridge the gap" with each other, neither can the clergy.  You would like to think that they could, but just like us, they have very strong opinions on what is the correct position and what is the right way to go forward.  As long as there is no pope to unite us, we will remain divided.  So, bottom line, you're not going to get a good answer to your question from any of us here. 

    However, I do think that there are/have been groups that try to work with each other out there.  For example, I'm pretty sure that the CMRI and the SGG are on good terms/have worked with each other.

    That was also the case between SGG and Bishop Sanborn's group when Fr Cekada was alive and teaching at Bishop Sanborn's seminary (MHTS).  Unfortunately, after Father died, there was a tragic falling out between Bishop Dolan and Bishop Sanborn over the Cassiciacuм Theory. I hope that they can get past that eventually now that Bishop Dolan has passed away.
    I do get what you are saying, but I think God won't give us a Pope until we are willing to work with each other.  In the mean time, souls are falling into a spirit of rebellion or a spirit of despair.  Souls are being lost.  Families are falling apart.  And we just say, oh it was predicted in a prophecy, so I have to ride it out.  The thing is people do have to become better at their Faith.  I am not looking for someone to help me.  I am looking for the +Priests and +Bishops to practice more humility.  I am looking for men to practice more humility.  Because face it a woman who is doing everything "right" is just a long for the ride, but crying her eyes out when nobody is looking.
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #84 on: December 12, 2023, 02:38:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: PAT317 on December 12, 2023, 09:15:51 AM
    I didn't take Plenus Venter to be saying what you seem to be making him say here.  Plenus Venter said “for me” - i.e. in his opinion, for himself, he finds +ABL & his faithful successors to be the best at fulfilling their sacred duty of handing on to us that which they received.  This is a discussion forum, and people share their opinions.  He stated very clearly, “For me, that means following…”  He said, “We all have to inform ourselves and follow the men of the Church we believe are best fulfilling…”  and for him, that is +ABL & his faithful successors. 

    If you disagree that’s the best, you can say so, but don’t put words in his mouth that he didn’t say, such as +ABL was the “only” one, there was no one else, etc.  He never said +ABL was "infallible" & "built Tradition single-handedly."  He did not discount or diminish the work that good individual priests did to keep Tradition.  He didn’t say there is nothing of value from these other good priests. 

    And regarding Archbishop Thục, PV mentioned that priests were running off to a bishop to have themselves consecrated by him.  Is that not the case?  Did Archbishop Thục seek out those men he consecrated, or did they seek him to get themselves consecrated? 

    [This is meant as a simple question, not to get into whether said consecrations were justified, good, etc.  Those are other topics already beaten to death on other threads.]
    Since the priests and bishops after V2 see that Rome doesn't appear to be Catholic, then they will perform Catholic sacraments in an "emergency state".  This means the Faithful, who can't find a "true priest" will ask to be provided one to perform all needed Sacraments in a state of emergency without jurisdiction.  If they need a priest, they have to ask a bishop to help get them one, because a "true Bishop" can only make "true priests".  This is what we base our ideas on to justify being outside of Rome.  I know I don't have the most perfect words to explain this, but the Faithful are required to ask for the Sacraments and the Priests should provide them, regardless of what the "true theological position is", because we do not have an authority to tell us which of us are right and which of us are wrong.

    Period end of story. 

    All of the groups outside of Rome are continuing the Catholic Church in this way, but they spend more time fighting over "unapproved theological positions" and less time making sure all of the Faithful are getting the sacraments they need.  It shouldn't be that I have access to 5 priests (all with different positions) and some have no priests.  And the Faithful should accept all "true priests" regardless of differences in these "unapproved theological positions" because the "True Sacraments" bring down graces that we need for the spiritual battle we are currently fighting.
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Meg

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #85 on: December 12, 2023, 04:16:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on December 12, 2023, 12:32:47 PM
    I do get what you are saying, but I think God won't give us a Pope until we are willing to work with each other.  In the mean time, souls are falling into a spirit of rebellion or a spirit of despair.  Souls are being lost.  Families are falling apart.  And we just say, oh it was predicted in a prophecy, so I have to ride it out.  The thing is people do have to become better at their Faith.  I am not looking for someone to help me.  I am looking for the +Priests and +Bishops to practice more humility.  I am looking for men to practice more humility.  Because face it a woman who is doing everything "right" is just a long for the ride, but crying her eyes out when nobody is looking.

    How do you suggest that we all work together? We don't have the same goals at all.
    For example, I don't have the goal of trying to make everyone become a sedevacantist. Nor do I believe that everyone has to believe what I personally believe, which is that is good to not follow a heretical pope.

    That's the difference between sedevacantists and non-sedevacantists. When one believes that the most important thing that he or she can do is to get everyone to be a sedevacantist, then there's going to be a problem; that is, unless all trads become sedevacantists. I don't see that happening though.

    Therefore, there will always be disunity among trads. I think that God will provide a good pope when a fair percentage of Catholics (whatever their stripe may be) strive for holiness and love of God and neighbor above all else.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #86 on: December 12, 2023, 04:50:00 PM »
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    • But we actually have to be charitable and humble and realize we don't know the answers.  The point is we are all operating outside of Rome and it takes great humility to admit we do not know how God is going to fix this.  In the mean time, we need to get the Sacraments to the people.  We still can discuss the issues but there shouldnt be "oh you are not my ilk, so i can't help you."  I know some on here dont even think that +Sanborn and +Privanus are bishops, which mean their priests arent priests.  We need to stop this and fight modernism not each other.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #87 on: December 12, 2023, 04:51:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: TheRealMcCoy on December 12, 2023, 09:43:52 AM
    Yes but it's impossible to get to Heaven without the sacraments.  We need priests and bishops for that. 

    "Repent and believe" is protestant.
    One absolutely requires the Sacrament of Baptism to get into Heaven.

    Can you put a date on when St Mark became protestant? 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #88 on: December 12, 2023, 05:02:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on December 12, 2023, 04:50:00 PM
    But we actually have to be charitable and humble and realize we don't know the answers.  The point is we are all operating outside of Rome and it takes great humility to admit we do not know how God is going to fix this.  In the mean time, we need to get the Sacraments to the people.  We still can discuss the issues but there shouldnt be "oh you are not my ilk, so i can't help you."  I know some on here dont even think that +Sanborn and +Privanus are bishops, which mean their priests arent priests.  We need to stop this and fight modernism not each other.

    I for one would be happy to fight modernism and not each other.

    But what can I do when the sedevacantists believe that I do not have the right to believe that I cannot follow a heretical Pope? They believe that I cannot be allowed to believe that a heretical pope can be a Pope. How do you propose to deal with that?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #89 on: December 12, 2023, 05:11:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 12, 2023, 05:02:02 PM
    I for one would be happy to fight modernism and not each other.

    But what can I do when the sedevacantists believe that I do not have the right to believe that I cannot follow a heretical Pope? They believe that I cannot be allowed to believe that a heretical pope can be a Pope. How do you propose to deal with that?


    Oh, so you finally admit it! You finally admit you follow Bergoglio! I’m curious however, in what way do you follow him? :laugh1:
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?
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