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Author Topic: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...  (Read 11894 times)

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Offline Mark 79

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Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2023, 04:15:42 PM »
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  • Fair go, Mark, none of us here has Magisterial authority. We all do our best to adhere to the teachings of the Magisterium. Recounting our experiences and what we stand for gives encouragement to others and can help them to understand the crisis and stand firm in the Faith.
    As does everyone here (except Meg and Songbird).  The variety of rational (not Meg, not Songbird) opinions testifies that families have conflicting positions "to understand the crisis and stand firm in the Faith."
    Just sayin'.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #61 on: December 09, 2023, 05:02:33 PM »
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  • 1. I still think honesty is always the best policy.

    2. I would make it clear that I was a sedevacantist in the event he had an issue with it. 

    3. The priest would be going out of his way to provide sacraments at my home.  This is different than my going to him for mass or confession (I have gone to a SSPX chapel for confession and mass before and did not inform the priest then). 


    In any event another poster PMed me to let me know that the priest does in fact know the OP's position on sedevacantism.
    1. There is no sign that the OP was dishonest. He seems on the contrary to be an open person.
    2. If the priest had an issue with it, he could ask and you would give an honest aswer. BUT the priest has no right to withhold the sacraments on the account of a your answer.
    3. whether the priest travelled to you or vice versa is irrelevant.

    The priest cannot put unreasonable demands on the conscience of the communicant, as has been my personal experience. It is not for the priest to to divide the Church, on non-dogmatic principles.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #62 on: December 09, 2023, 06:22:48 PM »
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  • 1. There is no sign that the OP was dishonest. He seems on the contrary to be an open person.
    2. If the priest had an issue with it, he could ask and you would give an honest aswer. BUT the priest has no right to withhold the sacraments on the account of a your answer.
    3. whether the priest travelled to you or vice versa is irrelevant.

    The priest cannot put unreasonable demands on the conscience of the communicant, as has been my personal experience. It is not for the priest to to divide the Church, on non-dogmatic principles.
    I never said the OP was dishonest.  However, the OP did sound like he chose to keep his position a secret from the priest (again, I later found out from another poster via PM that the priest does know).

    I disagree that the fact that the priest is going out of his way, possibly states away, to come to my home on a monthly basis is irrelevant.  It absolutely is relevant.  He doesn't HAVE to come to my house.  Therefore, I will be upfront.

    Even if I don't HAVE to tell him, that's just how I roll. 

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #63 on: December 09, 2023, 07:04:25 PM »
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  • I never said the OP was dishonest.  However, the OP did sound like he chose to keep his position a secret from the priest (again, I later found out from another poster via PM that the priest does know).

    I disagree that the fact that the priest is going out of his way, possibly states away, to come to my home on a monthly basis is irrelevant.  It absolutely is relevant.  He doesn't HAVE to come to my house.  Therefore, I will be upfront.

    Even if I don't HAVE to tell him, that's just how I roll.
    It is, of course, the decision of the priest to visit their home. (I would assume that the family has no other option for Mass and the Sacraments - which is the situation in which I find myself). 

    Yes, it’s a personal decision for you, but can’t be expected of anyone else. 

    My point is that no priest has the right to refuse Communion to a bona fide Catholic. End of story.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #64 on: December 11, 2023, 12:33:48 PM »
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  • I agree.  This should satisfy most of the concerns/debates out there.  This position "works" on so many levels, and I was hoping that Father Chazal's position could help bridge the gap between the various factions ... but I was wrong.
    I missed this debate.  Why don't the various factions want to bridge the gap?  I probably shouldn't ask, but I am really getting tired of the "I am more Catholic than you" fighting.

     It shouldn't be this hard.  If you are in a Pope Francis approved group (like ICK, FSSP, or diocesan) then you border on showing disobedience to the Pope, (I saw this a lot and it confused me).  If you are not in a Pope Francis approved groups (like the SSPX (debatable), neo-SSPX, CMRI, etc.) then in normal times you would be considered Schismatic, Heretical, etc.  We have a mystery here and instead of fighting we should be using our resources to become the best and strongest Catholics we can become.  Regardless, the laity can't make this happen, only the clergy can.  I know I am probably beating a dead horse :fryingpan:, but I am just so frustrated, and I know there are so many other frustrated Catholics out there.
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #65 on: December 11, 2023, 02:27:23 PM »
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  • I missed this debate.  Why don't the various factions want to bridge the gap?  I probably shouldn't ask, but I am really getting tired of the "I am more Catholic than you" fighting.

     It shouldn't be this hard.  If you are in a Pope Francis approved group (like ICK, FSSP, or diocesan) then you border on showing disobedience to the Pope, (I saw this a lot and it confused me).  If you are not in a Pope Francis approved groups (like the SSPX (debatable), neo-SSPX, CMRI, etc.) then in normal times you would be considered Schismatic, Heretical, etc.  We have a mystery here and instead of fighting we should be using our resources to become the best and strongest Catholics we can become.  Regardless, the laity can't make this happen, only the clergy can.  I know I am probably beating a dead horse :fryingpan:, but I am just so frustrated, and I know there are so many other frustrated Catholics out there.
    The reason it's confusing is because too many people listen to too many voices saying too many different things.

    St. Paul tells us that if he himself were to preach error, or if you were to hear error preached from an angel from heaven, you must maintain the true faith and do not listen to either of them. Seems simple enough to me. To help unconfuse matters in this mess, simply do not listen to popes who preach all manner or heresy and error, and don't add additional confusion into the mix by being concerned about whether or not popes are popes.  

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #66 on: December 11, 2023, 04:50:06 PM »
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  • The reason it's confusing is because too many people listen to too many voices saying too many different things.

    St. Paul tells us that if he himself were to preach error, or if you were to hear error preached from an angel from heaven, you must maintain the true faith and do not listen to either of them. Seems simple enough to me. To help unconfuse matters in this mess, simply do not listen to popes who preach all manner or heresy and error, and don't add additional confusion into the mix by being concerned about whether or not popes are popes. 
    That still doesn't answer "Why don't the various factions want to bridge the gap?"  and if you are trying to be a Catholic in good standing then what?  Are we saying that when it comes to this confusion do what you feel, even if you might be mortally sinning based on what others are saying?  Within two hours of my house I can go to an independent Una cuм Mass, I can go to an SSPV, I can go to an Independent non-una cuм, I can go to the SSPX, I could go to an RCI, I can go to an FSSP, and many indults. Yet some will say I am mortally sinning if I attend others.  If I just determine that I am not and go where I want, then I become my own boss and that is not good for my soul either.  I do what my husband wants, which is fine with me.  But I want all the rest to make sense.  I know "Crisis in the Church"  be patient.  Again it is just so frustrating.  They are all trying to be Catholic and do what Catholics did before VII, but they have no bridges between any of them.  On top of that I have to raise Catholic children and tell them don't worry about all the in-fighting hopefully that will work itself out eventually. :facepalm::confused:
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #67 on: December 11, 2023, 05:13:26 PM »
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  • That still doesn't answer "Why don't the various factions want to bridge the gap?"
    Well, Gray, you've answered your own question. If all these Trad groups have different beliefs and one is accusing the other of mortal sin etc, how do you think the situation can be resolved? The shepherd is struck and the sheep are scattered! We need to pray for a good Catholic Pope who alone can unite us all again.

    In the meantime, I could say to you - no, don't just do what you feel, follow the great leader that Divine Providence gave us as a beacon of light and truth in this crisis... Archbishop Lefebvre. You will be safe doing that. Don't worry too much about 'is he pope or isn't he', because I really don't think your salvation depends too much upon that. The Pope is destroying faith and morals, so avoid him and adhere to Tradition! Ensure you have valid priests and sacraments. Stay away from novelties!



    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #68 on: December 11, 2023, 05:31:47 PM »
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  • Well, Gray, you've answered your own question. If all these Trad groups have different beliefs and one is accusing the other of mortal sin etc, how do you think the situation can be resolved? The shepherd is struck and the sheep are scattered! We need to pray for a good Catholic Pope who alone can unite us all again.

    In the meantime, I could say to you - no, don't just do what you feel, follow the great leader that Divine Providence gave us as a beacon of light and truth in this crisis... Archbishop Lefebvre. You will be safe doing that. Don't worry too much about 'is he pope or isn't he', because I really don't think your salvation depends too much upon that. The Pope is destroying faith and morals, so avoid him and adhere to Tradition! Ensure you have valid priests and sacraments. Stay away from novelties!
    To be honest I am not sure that is helpful anymore, to just follow +ABL.  He has been gone for 32 years (RIP) and we have no idea how he would react in this current situation.  He might of left with the "Resistance".  He might have agreed with Fr. Chazal.  He might have become a sedevacanist or a sedeprivationist.

    I will be safe if I follow my husband.  Who will my husband be safe following?  Who will my sons be safe following, when they leave my home?  
    and what do you mean by novelties.  I frankly don't see why +ABL did a great thing and +Thuc did not.  VII was a mess, people made choices based on their vantage point.  
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #69 on: December 11, 2023, 05:59:30 PM »
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  • To be honest I am not sure that is helpful anymore, to just follow +ABL.  He has been gone for 32 years (RIP) and we have no idea how he would react in this current situation.  He might of left with the "Resistance".  He might have agreed with Fr. Chazal.  He might have become a sedevacanist or a sedeprivationist.

    I will be safe if I follow my husband.  Who will my husband be safe following?  Who will my sons be safe following, when they leave my home? 
    and what do you mean by novelties.  I frankly don't see why +ABL did a great thing and +Thuc did not.  VII was a mess, people made choices based on their vantage point. 
    There you have it. We all have to inform ourselves and follow the men of the Church we believe are best fulfilling their sacred duty of handing on to us that which they received - the Faith and valid sacraments - while waiting and praying for an end to the crisis. For me, that means following ABL and his faithful successors, yet not isolating myself from sacraments just because there is no valiant Resistance priest at hand if there are still good SSPX priests that I can attend. As regards Archbishop Thuc - for me that is the Church upside down - priests deciding they have to save the Church and running off to a bishop to have themselves consecrated - like Fr Pfeiffer in his turn. Furthermore, all the videos I have watched on this forum only confirm my doubts regarding AB Thuc's consecrations - good man as he was.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #70 on: December 11, 2023, 07:21:36 PM »
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  • There you have it. We all have to inform ourselves and follow the men of the Church we believe are best fulfilling their sacred duty of handing on to us that which they received - the Faith and valid sacraments - while waiting and praying for an end to the crisis. For me, that means following ABL and his faithful successors, yet not isolating myself from sacraments just because there is no valiant Resistance priest at hand if there are still good SSPX priests that I can attend. As regards Archbishop Thuc - for me that is the Church upside down - priests deciding they have to save the Church and running off to a bishop to have themselves consecrated - like Fr Pfeiffer in his turn. Furthermore, all the videos I have watched on this forum only confirm my doubts regarding AB Thuc's consecrations - good man as he was.

    Utter hogwash.  I'm pretty sure that +Williamson has consecrated as many bishops in his 10 years post-SSPX than +Thuc did the entire time he was active, and there's zero doubt about the main +Thuc lines (the ones that can be traced by to +Thuc vs. some those resting upon dubious claims).  You've made it quite clear that you do little more than emote.  Pfeiffer, lest you forget, is a fruit of the Resistance, and only sought a bishop from the +Thuc line because he could find no one else to consecrate him ... as he's ranted repeatedly against both sedevacantism and Feeneyism (and Bishop Webster was both SV and Feeneyite).


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #71 on: December 11, 2023, 08:50:34 PM »
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  • Utter hogwash.  I'm pretty sure that +Williamson has consecrated as many bishops in his 10 years post-SSPX than +Thuc did the entire time he was active, and there's zero doubt about the main +Thuc lines (the ones that can be traced by to +Thuc vs. some those resting upon dubious claims).  You've made it quite clear that you do little more than emote.  Pfeiffer, lest you forget, is a fruit of the Resistance, and only sought a bishop from the +Thuc line because he could find no one else to consecrate him ... as he's ranted repeatedly against both sedevacantism and Feeneyism (and Bishop Webster was both SV and Feeneyite).
    Glad I caught your attention, Lad! I will admit I'm not totally without emotions, but I do my best to reason on Cathinfo. Your comment about Bishop Williamson and Fr P missed my point (my reasoning).

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #72 on: December 12, 2023, 04:57:56 AM »
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  • That still doesn't answer "Why don't the various factions want to bridge the gap?"  and if you are trying to be a Catholic in good standing then what?  Are we saying that when it comes to this confusion do what you feel, even if you might be mortally sinning based on what others are saying?  Within two hours of my house I can go to an independent Una cuм Mass, I can go to an SSPV, I can go to an Independent non-una cuм, I can go to the SSPX, I could go to an RCI, I can go to an FSSP, and many indults. Yet some will say I am mortally sinning if I attend others.  If I just determine that I am not and go where I want, then I become my own boss and that is not good for my soul either.  I do what my husband wants, which is fine with me.  But I want all the rest to make sense.  I know "Crisis in the Church"  be patient.  Again it is just so frustrating.  They are all trying to be Catholic and do what Catholics did before VII, but they have no bridges between any of them.  On top of that I have to raise Catholic children and tell them don't worry about all the in-fighting hopefully that will work itself out eventually. :facepalm::confused:
    Plenus answered about the gap. I would add that the gap is actually disunity caused by, among other things, a lack of authentic Catholic teaching. The authentic Catholic teaching has been largely inundated and adulterated with opinions - from all over.

    But you have many options within two hours of your house, seek out a priest for your spiritual adviser. I cannot tell you what to do, I *can* tell you what I would do and I can tell you what I would *not* do, and what I would avoid.

     Knowing nothing about you except from some of your posts, I presume you are seeking truth but a bit lost. First, I would avoid all things NO, this includes the diocesan indults. I would visit the above trad chapels near you and speak to the priest at each chapel, even if it's in the confessional, until you are satisfied you found one who is able to actually able to help you with sound spiritual instruction. 

     I could write a TLDR but I would offer the advice that you need to do a lot of praying especially the rosary, frequent confession, Mass and communion. For us, we had no options you have, heck, my mother would have catechism for about an hour a few times a week from the Baltimore Catechism, sometimes we listened to sermons/talks given by good priests, or read The Lives of the Saints, but we prayed together every single day the rosary and the Novena to the Holy Ghost and traveled long distances for the Mass and sacraments when there was one available. 

    We all need to do something for our faith and those in our care - and I don't mean go to abortion protests or the like - I mean pray, seek, ask. Avoid all bad influences of society, friends and relatives.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #73 on: December 12, 2023, 05:53:38 AM »
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  • Glad I caught your attention, Lad! I will admit I'm not totally without emotions, but I do my best to reason on Cathinfo. Your comment about Bishop Williamson and Fr P missed my point (my reasoning).

    That's the problem.  I'm missing any "reasoning" whatsoever.  You just hurl gratuitious statements out there which rest on top of begged questions, such as how "for Lefebvre to have become a sedevacantist would have been tantamount to abandoning the souls under his care" (a couple layers of begged questions)", that the "+Thuc line [consists] of priests running around trying to get consecrated", trying to blame Pfeiffer on "sedevacantists" when he's clearly a fruit of the Resistance, was "running around trying to get consecrated" and merely USED a +Thuc bishop for consecration, disparaged the number of priests who had become bishops, ignoring the fact that +Williamson has consecrated nearly as many (if not more) than +Thuc did, begging the question that there's some doubt about the validity of +Thuc consecrations, ignoring the fact that one of Bishop Kelly's biggest arguments against the +Thuc line was the secrecy of consecrations, and +Williamson has done a secret consecration also (and perhaps more).

    In other words ... double standards based on nothing but emoting, your governing "rational" principle being "Muh sedevacantism bad."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The position me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #74 on: December 12, 2023, 07:05:02 AM »
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  • That still doesn't answer "Why don't the various factions want to bridge the gap?"  and if you are trying to be a Catholic in good standing then what?  Are we saying that when it comes to this confusion do what you feel, even if you might be mortally sinning based on what others are saying?  Within two hours of my house I can go to an independent Una cuм Mass, I can go to an SSPV, I can go to an Independent non-una cuм, I can go to the SSPX, I could go to an RCI, I can go to an FSSP, and many indults. Yet some will say I am mortally sinning if I attend others.  If I just determine that I am not and go where I want, then I become my own boss and that is not good for my soul either.  I do what my husband wants, which is fine with me.  But I want all the rest to make sense.  I know "Crisis in the Church"  be patient.  Again it is just so frustrating.  They are all trying to be Catholic and do what Catholics did before VII, but they have no bridges between any of them.  On top of that I have to raise Catholic children and tell them don't worry about all the in-fighting hopefully that will work itself out eventually. :facepalm::confused:
    Gray....just as those of us here cannot "bridge the gap" with each other, neither can the clergy.  You would like to think that they could, but just like us, they have very strong opinions on what is the correct position and what is the right way to go forward.  As long as there is no pope to unite us, we will remain divided.  So, bottom line, you're not going to get a good answer to your question from any of us here. 

    However, I do think that there are/have been groups that try to work with each other out there.  For example, I'm pretty sure that the CMRI and the SGG are on good terms/have worked with each other.

    That was also the case between SGG and Bishop Sanborn's group when Fr Cekada was alive and teaching at Bishop Sanborn's seminary (MHTS).  Unfortunately, after Father died, there was a tragic falling out between Bishop Dolan and Bishop Sanborn over the Cassiciacuм Theory. I hope that they can get past that eventually now that Bishop Dolan has passed away.