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Author Topic: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...  (Read 7750 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2024, 01:52:14 PM »
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  • In the case of a woman, she wouldn't even have the election. 

    When this docuмent speaks of valid election, it's blending the two aspects of the office, the material and the formal, i.e. isn't applying the formal/material election.  What it's referring to in a "valid" election is the result of the election where the individual formally receives papal authority.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #16 on: January 22, 2024, 02:20:06 PM »
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  • In the case of a woman, she wouldn't even have the election. 
    You must be thinking of Pope Joan. :laugh1:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #17 on: January 22, 2024, 02:27:04 PM »
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  • Is it far-fetched to believe that CGI, AI, and lying propaganda could lead to a non-existent man being elected Pope?

    Offline Univocity

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #18 on: January 22, 2024, 03:16:08 PM »
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  • When this docuмent speaks of valid election, it's blending the two aspects of the office, the material and the formal, i.e. isn't applying the formal/material election.  What it's referring to in a "valid" election is the result of the election where the individual formally receives papal authority.
    I've never heard this opinion before. Father Cekada cites a dozen or so canonists who all affirm that the election itself would be invalid, not any subsequent result.  The material/formal distinction introduced by Des Lauriers is a novelty in its application to the papacy, so of course these theologians dont address it. 

    However the MHT priests who have addressed this issue do not hold what you hold. They dont speak of a material/formal distinction within the election, but rather that the election as such is the material element and that God's bestowal of power is the formal element.  Accordingly they admit that these theologians are speaking of the actual election itself being rendered invalid and that no title or designation would be given in such a case.  However they assert that "heretic" in this case refers to a sentenced heretic only.  Thus they allow for pertinacious public heretics to be validly elected while maintaining that a sentenced heretic cannot be.  This is absurd since the canonists all explicitly state that the invalidation is a matter of DIVINE LAW, which is logically prior to any ecclesiastical law, sentence, procedure etc.  Also it would be a silly thing for so many canonists to write about how a sentenced heretic could not be elected pope, as if this needed clarification. But then again they do mention women...

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #19 on: January 22, 2024, 03:41:29 PM »
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  • I've never heard this opinion before. Father Cekada cites a dozen or so canonists who all affirm that the election itself would be invalid, not any subsequent result.  The material/formal distinction introduced by Des Lauriers is a novelty in its application to the papacy, so of course these theologians dont address it. 

    No, it's not a novelty.  Bellarmine actually speaks of the distinction between the designation to office as the material aspect and the conferral of authority as the formal aspect of an individual becoming the Pope.  For an individual to become Pope, he's elected and accepts (material) and then God bestows the papal authority on him (formal).  In nearly all cases, the two happen immediately, but if there's some impediment, God doesn't bestow the authority.  This is what is meant by "valid election" in these texts which aren't dealing with it from the perspective of the material/formal distinction, i.e. an election where the elected receive Papal Authority as a result.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #20 on: January 22, 2024, 03:43:02 PM »
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  • However the MHT priests who have addressed this issue do not hold what you hold. They dont speak of a material/formal distinction within the election, but rather that the election as such is the material element and that God's bestowal of power is the formal element.

    No, I'm saying that the texts you cited combine the formal/material distinction into a single compound construct of a "valid election".  I'm not dividing it.  I'm distinguishing it, and saying that the text you cited was combining the two.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #21 on: January 22, 2024, 04:55:17 PM »
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  • WERNZ-VIDAL: “Those capable of being validly elected are all who are not prohibited by divine law or by an invalidating ecclesiastical law… Those who are barred as incapable of being validly elected are all women, children who have not reached the age of reason; also, those afflicted with habitual insanity, the unbaptized, heretics, schismatics…” (Jus Canonicuм 1:415)

    I've actually often wondered about the exact hypothetical you mentioned.  Imagine this woman was publicly known to be a woman (via media etc) yet had not been DECLARED such by the Church.  Would the Guerardians grant the election to this woman?  All the authorities who speak on this are unanimous in saying that a woman is not capable of valid election by Divine Law. 
    .

    :laugh1:

    No kidding. The Guerardians churn out page after page of quasi-legal mumbo-jumbo, but they never address simple, common-sense objections like this one.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #22 on: January 22, 2024, 05:16:47 PM »
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  • ...or perhaps it is just prior to the "habemus Papam" when the papal-would-be says "Accepto" that he becomes pope. This is to say that the cardinal (new pope) immediately receives the form, changing the substance of his person into "pope," due to the words spoken.
    You present an ontological error here. There is no change in the substance of a man who takes possession of the Office of Peter. The office is just that, an office. It is not sacrament that in any way imparts an indelible mark, that would change the being of a person. A cardinal who is elected Pope enters the Papacy a bishop, maintains the Papacy as a bishop, and exits the Papacy as a bishop.

    A fascinating digression here would be on the nature of Holy Orders, namely, is the fullness of the sacrament given through presbyteral ordination so that one is merely consecrated into the episcopacy in order to activate use of already-possesed powers, or is the making of bishops consitute a true ordination where new powers are given and authorised that are not bestowed in presbyteral ordination.

    Returning to the Office of Peter, a Pope is merely a bishop ontologically (or maybe just a priest).
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline Univocity

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #23 on: January 22, 2024, 05:40:01 PM »
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  • No, it's not a novelty.  Bellarmine actually speaks of the distinction between the designation to office as the material aspect and the conferral of authority as the formal aspect of an individual becoming the Pope.  For an individual to become Pope, he's elected and accepts (material) and then God bestows the papal authority on him (formal).  In nearly all cases, the two happen immediately, but if there's some impediment, God doesn't bestow the authority.  This is what is meant by "valid election" in these texts which aren't dealing with it from the perspective of the material/formal distinction, i.e. an election where the elected receive Papal Authority as a result.
    Can you please provide a quote of St Robert Bellarmine stating that the designation to office is the material element?  The only quote I've seen is referenced by Fr Desposito and in it St Bellarmine refers to the PERSON as the matter, which is in a certain. Way disposed by the election. To receive the form. This is not identical to the position of the Guerardians (or semivacantists as I call them.)  I

    If you have any proof for the assertion that the dozen or so canonists cited, when referring to an "invalid election" are in fact referring to someone being validly elected but posing an obstacle to the reception of papal power I would love to see it.   

    The Cassiciacuм theory as presented by MHT does not agree with your assessment of those texts, as I indicated.  They admit that all of these authors are stating that such people (women, insane men, heretics, unbaptised etc) are incapable of receiving the "material element" ie designation.  They hold that Bergoglio is not a heretic in the sense indicated by said authors, since he has not been declared as such.  They assert that Bergoglio is in possession of a valid designation by way of a valid election and that his "lack of objective intention to will the good of the Church" vitiates his acceptance of the office in such a way that he retains the designation and does not accept the office of pope.  This is yet another novelty, since one who is elected but does not accept cannot retain the designation indefinitely per canon law.
      Perhaps reread Fr Cekada's article "Bergoglio's got Nothing to Lose."  He demonstrates that such men receive no title or designation whatever precisely because the election itself is invalid.  

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #24 on: January 23, 2024, 06:58:31 AM »
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  • You present an ontological error here. There is no change in the substance of a man who takes possession of the Office of Peter. The office is just that, an office. It is not sacrament that in any way imparts an indelible mark, that would change the being of a person. A cardinal who is elected Pope enters the Papacy a bishop, maintains the Papacy as a bishop, and exits the Papacy as a bishop.

    A fascinating digression here would be on the nature of Holy Orders, namely, is the fullness of the sacrament given through presbyteral ordination so that one is merely consecrated into the episcopacy in order to activate use of already-possesed powers, or is the making of bishops consitute a true ordination where new powers are given and authorised that are not bestowed in presbyteral ordination.

    Returning to the Office of Peter, a Pope is merely a bishop ontologically (or maybe just a priest).

    But there has to be some quality ("accidental" in the predicable sense) that Our Lord imparts on the pope that distinguishes him from an ordinary bishop.  Do you have an idea of what that quality is?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #25 on: January 23, 2024, 09:14:26 AM »
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  • But there has to be some quality ("accidental" in the predicable sense) that Our Lord imparts on the pope that distinguishes him from an ordinary bishop.  Do you have an idea of what that quality is?

    He receives authority, and is designated the Bishop of Rome.  But, as Elwin indicated, there's no ontological change in the man.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #26 on: January 23, 2024, 09:15:34 AM »
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  • Can you please provide a quote of St Robert Bellarmine stating that the designation to office is the material element?

    I'll try to find it, but I don't have it at my fingertips.  It's the material aspect of an individual becoming the pope, the material aspect of his receiving papal authority.  We're not talking about the person being the matter of the papacy, but about the mater/form of papal election.  What's crucial is that the election or designation is the material cause of his becoming the pope, becoming invested with papal authority, while Our Lord is the formal cause, bestowing the authority, i.e. it's alien to the Democratic principle that people receive authority from the people.  In other words, the people (in this case, the Cardinals, stand-ins for the clergy of Rome) do not make the man into the pope by electing him pope.  Christ honors the designation / election by Himself formally bestowing the authority.  That's the context in which Bellarmine was writing, not about the matter/form of the Pope himself, but the matter/form of the conferral/bestowal of authority upon the man.  Similarly, in the early Church, it was common for the clergy and people of a "diocese" or region to designate / select / elect the man they wished to be their bishop.  But their election did not make him bishop.  He would receive is authority from the pope (even before that was made explicit earlier in Church history).  But, since there's no higher authority than Christ Himself, the pope receives the authority from Christ Himself.

    Another way to state it is the material and formal causes of the person becoming the pope (the election) vs. the material / formal aspect of the Pope himself.  Election is the material cause, but Our Lord is the formal cause.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #27 on: January 23, 2024, 11:13:37 AM »
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  • He receives authority, and is designated the Bishop of Rome.  But, as Elwin indicated, there's no ontological change in the man.

    Can we not say that the "papal authority" he receives from Jesus Christ confers a quality ("accidental" in the predicable sense) to his soul that is then taken away at death (for example)? 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #28 on: January 23, 2024, 01:09:29 PM »
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  • Can we not say that the "papal authority" he receives from Jesus Christ confers a quality ("accidental" in the predicable sense) to his soul that is then taken away at death (for example)?

    Not sure.  I would view it as something extrinsic to the person himself rather as some inherent quality.  All authority is ultimately God's authority, and the Pope exercises it to the extent designated by God.  God says, "Obey this man." and so we obey him.  There was nothing inherent in Eugenio Pacelli that gave him authority other than that God deigned that he should have it.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #29 on: January 23, 2024, 02:27:59 PM »
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  • Not sure.  I would view it as something extrinsic to the person himself rather as some inherent quality.  All authority is ultimately God's authority, and the Pope exercises it to the extent designated by God.  God says, "Obey this man." and so we obey him.  There was nothing inherent in Eugenio Pacelli that gave him authority other than that God deigned that he should have it.

    Thanks.  What about the charism of infallibility?