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Author Topic: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...  (Read 7903 times)

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Offline rowenwdse

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The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
« on: January 17, 2024, 09:06:46 AM »
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  • I posted this same post some time ago but made some modifications.

    I want to share here a 1 page PDF(revised) on how me and my family understand the Sedevacantist position.

    Please Click this Link: https://mothermary.website/sedevacantism2.pdf

    Thanks and Kind Regards in +J M J,
    Roger

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #1 on: January 17, 2024, 09:58:12 AM »
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  • Roger,  we are Catholics.  You and your family are Catholics.  

    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #2 on: January 18, 2024, 12:41:37 PM »
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  • OP, I think you will enjoy learning from what this video teaches. I think it might help to clear up some of the grey areas that are inherent with sedeism. It's one of the Dimonds interviewing Fr. Wathen before the Dimonds went sede.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #3 on: January 22, 2024, 06:37:45 AM »
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  • I see no difference between your first pdf docuмent

    sedevacantism.pdf (mothermary.website)

    and this revised docuмent in the OP.  

    What are the "revisions"? Are they substantial or just grammar type revisions?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #4 on: January 22, 2024, 07:10:50 AM »
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  • I want to share here a 1 page PDF(revised) on how me and my family misunderstand the Sedevacantist position.

    I fixed it for you.  Perhaps you should take the time to understand what's involved before publicly declaring a position.

    While one is entitled to hold any of the so-called "5 Opinions," you falsely inject the term "formal" heresy into the discussion (using the commonly-held distortion of the term that's out there).


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #5 on: January 22, 2024, 07:15:31 AM »
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  • So you've arbitrarily chosen the by-far-the-least-commonly-held of the "5 Opinions":
    Quote
    And once a man is Pope - no one can depose him, consider him deposed or canonically judge him, for this is an authority that only belongs to a future Pope.

    None of the 5 Opinions refer to only a "future Pope" having the authority.  You just made this up.

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #6 on: January 22, 2024, 08:07:10 AM »
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  • One of the best attributes of a public forum is that it demonstrates the failures of democracy beautifully.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #7 on: January 22, 2024, 08:12:34 AM »
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  • I posted this same post some time ago but made some modifications.

    I want to share here a 1 page PDF(revised) on how me and my family understand the Sedevacantist position.

    Please Click this Link: https://mothermary.website/sedevacantism2.pdf

    Thanks and Kind Regards in +J M J,
    Roger


    "Again, no one can judge a Pope as a formal heretic – one who knows he is in heresy and guilty of not overcoming vincible ignorance – except a future Pope."

    With the above statement, would the future pope be presuming the former putative pope innocent prior to the investigation?


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #8 on: January 22, 2024, 08:19:40 AM »
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  • I fixed it for you.  Perhaps you should take the time to understand what's involved before publicly declaring a position.

    While one is entitled to hold any of the so-called "5 Opinions," you falsely inject the term "formal" heresy into the discussion (using the commonly-held distortion of the term that's out there).

    The term "manifest" contains within it the note of "formal sin".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #9 on: January 22, 2024, 09:03:19 AM »
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  • The term "manifest" contains within it the note of "formal sin".

    No, it precludes any judgment about the internal forum, and the term "formal" in terms of heresy has been one of the most widely abused terms in theology.

    Manifest Heresy is all that you need.

    Manifest means public.
    Heresy (by most definitions) inherently requires pertinacity.

    There's no mention of "formal" in any of the "5 Opinions".

    If someone petinaciously adheres to a proposition that's contrary to Catholic dogma, he's a heretic.

    We have many instances of such in the Conciliar Antipopes, e.g. where Bergoglio still holds the Old Covenant to be in force and where Bergoglio declared the non-Catholic "martyrs" (verbatim contradicting the Council of Florence EENS definition).  Bergoglio and all the V2 Antipopes deny the dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and have done so consistently and pertinaciously for decades now.  They may all very sincerely believe that they are right and be in "good faith" (though I doubt it), but that's not ours to judge.  We only judge their pertinacious (repeated, consistent) denial of EENS and it's all we can judge.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #10 on: January 22, 2024, 11:24:54 AM »
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  • No, it precludes any judgment about the internal forum, and the term "formal" in terms of heresy has been one of the most widely abused terms in theology.

    Manifest Heresy is all that you need.

    Manifest means public.
    Heresy (by most definitions) inherently requires pertinacity.

    There's no mention of "formal" in any of the "5 Opinions".

    If someone petinaciously adheres to a proposition that's contrary to Catholic dogma, he's a heretic.

    We have many instances of such in the Conciliar Antipopes, e.g. where Bergoglio still holds the Old Covenant to be in force and where Bergoglio declared the non-Catholic "martyrs" (verbatim contradicting the Council of Florence EENS definition).  Bergoglio and all the V2 Antipopes deny the dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and have done so consistently and pertinaciously for decades now.  They may all very sincerely believe that they are right and be in "good faith" (though I doubt it), but that's not ours to judge.  We only judge their pertinacious (repeated, consistent) denial of EENS and it's all we can judge.

    I am fine with your definitions of "manifest" and "heresy".  However, the term "pertinacity" as a note in the term "heresy" denotes the sin of FORMAL heresy, that is, that the person is aware that the proposition he holds is contradictory to the one taught by the Church and that that teaching is of Divine and Catholic Faith.


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #11 on: January 22, 2024, 11:57:09 AM »
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  • Thanks for the paper Lad.  My only problem with the materialiter/formaliter argument is that, to remove the form, is to change the thing substantially.  Now when a man becomes pope - and I assume this occurs when the Cardinal deacon says "habemus Papam," at that instant the pope immediately receives substantialiter and formaliter the personhood of the pope; or perhaps it is just prior to the "habemus Papam" when the papal-would-be says "Accepto" that he becomes pope. This is to say that the cardinal (new pope) immediately receives the form, changing the substance of his person into "pope," due to the words spoken.  If this is not the case, then I misunderstand the conferral of the office.  The act of assuming the office must take place in time, and the action must be completed by force of words, and the office must be conferred via human agency from one man to another, even though the conferral of the office is not a sacramental action.  I guess in theory, the cardinals could elect a man and upon his election, he could stand up and say "Ego sum Papa," and he would immediately receive the form, changing the matter of his person.  The interesting thing is, once a man becomes pope, no set of "accidents" (in the philosophical sense) can remove the office from his person.  All the Catholics in the world cannot get together and remove him. And it is arguable, if the pope convenes a council, the council "anathematizes" him, but he refuses to give his consent to the anathematization, whether this constitutes a removal from office.  It would be interesting to see from a historical viewpoint.  

    In theory a layman could be elected pope; but at the moment of his being elected, he would need to be ordained and consecrated.  This must mean that the only requisite for the conferral of the office is that he be a male, and a baptized Catholic.  Or to extend the scenario, an unbaptized male could be elected, but immediately he would need to be baptized and receive all the orders.  These are just a few of my thoughts on the matter, but it does not amount to a "hill of beans" to use the proverbial phrase.      
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #12 on: January 22, 2024, 12:20:05 PM »
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  • Thanks for the paper Lad.  My only problem with the materialiter/formaliter argument is that, to remove the form, is to change the thing substantially.

    Well, I think that the difference here is that, yes, in a single entity, composed of form and matter, the thing would case to exist without the form.

    But this is a bit different, where it's a formal/material perspective of papal authority.  So, for instance, the material aspect of investing a man with papal authority is the election.  Church designates the candidate.  But it is God who directly invests the designated man with authority.  Contrast this with the democratic notion that authority comes FROM the people.

    By way of contrast, when the pope appoints a bishop, the pope not only designates him for the office, but also grants him the authority of the office.  But the Church doesn't have the ability to confer the authority of the office on the candidate, but just to select the candidate.

    So this isn't so much form/matter in the ontological sense, but the form/matter of the papal office, which isn't an ontological being per se.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #13 on: January 22, 2024, 12:30:21 PM »
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  • Now when a man becomes pope - and I assume this occurs when the Cardinal deacon says "habemus Papam," at that instant the pope immediately receives substantialiter and formaliter the personhood of the pope; or perhaps it is just prior to the "habemus Papam" when the papal-would-be says "Accepto" that he becomes pope.

    Pope Pius XII taught that he becomes pope the moment he accepts, and that makes sense.

    I like to take this example.  Let's say that (given this day and age), some transgender (born a female) somehow passes himself off as a man and gets elected pope.  She would have the election, but God will not infuse the papal authority on this individual.

    So the formal/material distinction as applied to this case is the distinction between the election and the infusion/imposition of the papal authority on the elected.

    Formal/material distinction is used in all kinds of context, from logic to moral theology, as well as philosophy (ontology), so some confusion could arise.

    One example I give from formal/material in the real of moral theology.  I see a $100 bill laying on the table, and pocket it, thinking it's mine.  Turns out it actually belongs to someone else.  This is materially grave matter, an injustice, where I have $100 that belongs to someone else, but not formally (since there was no intention to commit the evil).  Conversely, I pocket $100 thinking it belongs to someone else, but it turns out to be mine.  Although there was no object or material evil, I formally committed a grave sin.  So that's where formal/material shows up in moral theology.

    Offline Univocity

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    Re: The position(revised) me and my family take on Sedevacantism...
    « Reply #14 on: January 22, 2024, 01:08:02 PM »
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  • I like to take this example.  Let's say that (given this day and age), some transgender (born a female) somehow passes himself off as a man and gets elected pope.  She would have the election, but God will not infuse the papal authority on this individual.
    In the case of a woman, she wouldn't even have the election.  The election itself is invalid if the one nominated is a woman, insane, a heretic etc.  Below is Wernz Vidal on the matter.  Fr Cekada cited many more theologians in "Bergoglio's Got Nothing to Lose."  

    WERNZ-VIDAL: “Those capable of being validly elected are all who are not prohibited by divine law or by an invalidating ecclesiastical law… Those who are barred as incapable of being validly elected are all women, children who have not reached the age of reason; also, those afflicted with habitual insanity, the unbaptized, heretics, schismatics…” (Jus Canonicuм 1:415)

    I've actually often wondered about the exact hypothetical you mentioned.  Imagine this woman was publicly known to be a woman (via media etc) yet had not been DECLARED such by the Church.  Would the Guerardians grant the election to this woman?  All the authorities who speak on this are unanimous in saying that a woman is not capable of valid election by Divine Law.