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Author Topic: The pope question is a red herring  (Read 7640 times)

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Offline Your Friend Colin

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Re: The pope question is a red herring
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2023, 02:24:38 PM »
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  • More evidence that, ultimately, the Pope is the rule of faith: :fryingpan:


    Quote
    The Catholic doctrine touching the Church as the rule of faith

    The term Church, in this connection, can only denote the teaching Church, as is clear from the passages already quoted from the New Testament and the Fathers. But the teaching Church may be regarded either as the whole body of the episcopate, whether scattered throughout the world or collected in an ecuмenical council, or it may be synonymous with the successor of St. Peter, the Vicar of Christ. Now the teaching Church is the Apostolic body continuing to the end of time (Matthew 28:19-20); but only one of the bishops, viz., the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of St. Peter; he alone can be regarded as the living Apostle and Vicar of Christ, and it is only by union with him that the rest of the episcopate can be said to possess the Apostolic character (Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Prooemium). Hence, unless they be united with the Vicar of Christ, it is futile to appeal to the episcopate in general as the rule of faith


    St Peter’s successors = rule of faith 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #46 on: December 23, 2023, 02:39:39 PM »
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  • More evidence that, ultimately, the Pope is the rule of faith: :fryingpan:

    St Peter’s successors = rule of faith

    I had a huge debate with a poster name Drew who said that "Tradition" is the rule of faith ... as he failed to distinguish between remote and proximate.

    Now, this does not mean that the Pope is infallible every time he breaks wind, but Msgr. Fenton's explanation provides the most balanced Catholic articulation between the extremes of considering everything he says infallible and allowing his Magisterium to become so corrupt that it's not only no longer a reliable rule of faith, but that it can even become harmful to souls.


    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #47 on: December 23, 2023, 02:43:12 PM »
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  • "...Criterion of truth for all" = dogma is the rule of faith.
    Have a pleasant evening.
    Who defines dogmas in the Church, Stubborn?

    Quote
    …To determine, however, which are the doctrines divinely revealed belongs to the teaching Church, to whom God has entrusted the safekeeping and interpretation of His utterances. But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself. This obedience should, however, be perfect, because it is enjoined by faith itself, and has this in common with faith, that it cannot be given in shreds; nay, were it not absolute and perfect in every particular, it might wear the name of obedience, but its essence would disappear….
    “The faith of the whole Church should be one, according to the precept (1 Cor. 1:10): “Let all speak the same thing, and let there be no schisms among you”; and this cannot be observed save on condition that questions which arise touching faith should be determined by him who presides over the whole Church, whose sentence must consequently be accepted without wavering. And hence to the sole authority of the supreme Pontiff does it pertain to publish a new revision of the symbol, as also to decree all other matters that concern the universal Church.”
    In defining the limits of the obedience owed to the pastors of souls, but most of all to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, it must not be supposed that it is only to be yielded in relation to dogmas of which the obstinate denial cannot be disjoined from the crime of heresy. Nay, further, it is not enough sincerely and firmly to assent to doctrines which, though not defined by any solemn pronouncement of the Church, are by her proposed to belief, as divinely revealed, in her common and universal teaching, and which the [First] Vatican Council declared are to be believed “with Catholic and divine faith.” But this likewise must be reckoned amongst the duties of Christians, that they allow themselves to be ruled and directed by the authority and leadership of bishops, and, above all, of the Apostolic See

    Wherefore it belongs to the Pope to judge authoritatively what things the sacred oracles contain, as well as what doctrines are in harmony, and what in disagreement, with them; and also, for the same reason, to show forth what things are to be accepted as right, and what to be rejected as worthless; what it is necessary to do and what to avoid doing, in order to attain eternal salvation. For, otherwise, there would be no sure interpreter of the commands of God, nor would there be any safe guide showing man the way he should live.

    (Encyclical Sapientiae Christianae, nn. 21-22, 24)

    Quote
    As regards opinion, whatever the Roman Pontiffs have hitherto taught, or shall hereafter teach, must be held with a firm grasp of mind, and, so often as occasion requires, must be openly professed.

    (Encyclical Immortale Dei, n. 41)
     Again, more irrefutable evidence that you are wrong when you stated that the Pope is not the rule of faith. 


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #48 on: December 23, 2023, 02:44:20 PM »
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  • Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #49 on: December 23, 2023, 02:51:48 PM »
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  • I had a huge debate with a poster name Drew who said that "Tradition" is the rule of faith ... as he failed to distinguish between remote and proximate.

    Now, this does not mean that the Pope is infallible every time he breaks wind, but Msgr. Fenton's explanation provides the most balanced Catholic articulation between the extremes of considering everything he says infallible and allowing his Magisterium to become so corrupt that it's not only no longer a reliable r faith, but that it can even become harmful to souls.
    I should have been more precise.

    When the legitimate successor of St. Peter teaches the whole Church a doctrine concerning matters of faith and morals, that is the rule of faith. 

    An absurdity would follow if Catholics were obliged to assent to teachings that could contain pernicious errors. This would contradict the mission of the Church and ultimately disprove the promises of Christ. The Church’s Magisterium must necessarily be free from pernicious errors. And it has been and will always be so.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #50 on: December 23, 2023, 08:07:07 PM »
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  • I should have been more precise.

    When the legitimate successor of St. Peter teaches the whole Church a doctrine concerning matters of faith and morals, that is the rule of faith.
    If only the fathers of the Vatican Council I had you as adviser to improve the accuracy of their definition, Colin.

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #51 on: December 24, 2023, 01:08:46 AM »
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  • If only the fathers of the Vatican Council I had you as adviser to improve the accuracy of their definition, Colin.
    That is how the subsequent theologians and Popes interpreted Vatican I. If you read the quotes I provided, you would see I only restated their conclusions. 

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #52 on: December 24, 2023, 01:17:44 AM »
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  • If only the fathers of the Vatican Council I had you as adviser to improve the accuracy of their definition, Colin.
    If you disagree with that statement, you have to necessarily say that the Church’s Magisterium is capable of teaching pernicious error to the whole Church, which is absurd. 


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #53 on: December 24, 2023, 04:15:52 AM »
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  • That is how the subsequent theologians and Popes interpreted Vatican I. If you read the quotes I provided, you would see I only restated their conclusions.
    That is false. Vatican I does not admit of interpretation, it defined very clearly when the Pope is infallible, under what conditions Peter enjoys that charism of 'never failing faith'.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #54 on: December 24, 2023, 04:25:45 AM »
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  • If you disagree with that statement, you have to necessarily say that the Church’s Magisterium is capable of teaching pernicious error to the whole Church, which is absurd.
    There is nothing absurd about it. We cannot exclude that possibility, since the Church has never taught the contrary. What we can state with absolute certainty is that when the Pope engages his infallibility, as defined by Vatican I, then, and then only, is his infallibility guaranteed. When he is not infallible as defined by the Church, the possibility of his being fallible is obvious. Unless you want to be your own pope and construct your own dogmas. Here is Vatican I: accept it and submit as a good child of Holy Mother Church:

    • For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter
      • not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine,
      • but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.
      Indeed, their apostolic teaching was
      • embraced by all the venerable fathers and
      • reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors,
      for they knew very well that this see of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Saviour to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren [60] .
    • This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell.
    • But since in this very age when the salutary effectiveness of the apostolic office is most especially needed, not a few are to be found who disparage its authority, we judge it absolutely necessary to affirm solemnly the prerogative which the only-begotten Son of God was pleased to attach to the supreme pastoral office.
    • Therefore,
      • faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith,
      • to the glory of God our saviour,
      • for the exaltation of the catholic religion and
      • for the salvation of the christian people,
      • with the approval of the sacred council,

      • we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that
        • when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
          • that is, when,
          • in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
          • in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
          • he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
        • he possesses,
          • by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
        • that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
        • Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

      So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.




    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #55 on: December 24, 2023, 04:31:59 AM »
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  • Vatican I defined this never failing faith of Peter in exactly the same way it was understood by St Robert Bellarmine:

    "'I have prayed for thee that thy faith not fail; and when you have converted, strengthen your brethren' (Luke 22:31). From this text, St Bernard in letter 90 to Pope Innocent deduced that the Roman Pontiff teaching ex cathedra cannot err; and before him the same was said by Pope Lucius I in letter I to the Bishops of Spain and France, by Pope Felix I in a letter to Benignus, Pope Mark in a letter to Athanasius, Leo I in sermon 3..., Leo IX in a letter to Peter Patriarch of Antioch, Agatho in a letter to the Emperor Constantine IV which was read at the Sixth Council (act 4 and again act 8) and approved by the whole Council, Pope Paschal II at the Roman Council..., Innocent III in the chapter Majores on Baptism and its effect... Therefore, if the Roman Pontiff cannot err when he is teaching ex cathedra, certainly his judgement must be followed... For we read Acts ch 15 that the Council said: 'It has seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us'; such also now is the Pontiff's teaching ex cathedra, whom we showed is always directed by the Holy Ghost so that he cannot err." - St Robert Bellarmine, On the Word of God, Lib 3, Cap 5



    Offline Gunter

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #56 on: December 24, 2023, 05:36:58 AM »
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  • Within the first minute of this Fr Gregory Hesse talk the question of our current pope is answered.
    https://youtu.be/cA04wzMAN8s?si=_s5Fm37VgGWzWJxi
    Now if we can resolve the doubtful Holy Order problem this webchat would go away.  What a beautiful Christmas gift that would be.

    Offline Gunter

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #57 on: December 24, 2023, 06:28:30 AM »
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  • Fr Hesse states, if a pope decides forever on a moral issue his successor cannot change it, it's impossible.   He would put himself in schism. 

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #58 on: December 24, 2023, 07:03:55 AM »
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  • That is false. Vatican I does not admit of interpretation, it defined very clearly when the Pope is infallible, under what conditions Peter enjoys that charism of 'never failing faith'.
    Yes, PV. And the holy fathers of the Council of Trent also told us what the "firm and alone foundation" that would prevail against the gates of hell was - the truths enshrined in the Nicene Creed:


    Quote
    For which cause, this council has thought good, that the Symbol of faith which the holy Roman Church makes use of,–as being that principle wherein all who profess the faith of Christ necessarily agree, and that firm and alone foundation against which the gates of hell shall never prevail,–be expressed in the very same words in which it is read in all the churches. Which Symbol is as follows:

    Council of Trent, Third Session, Decree Touching the Symbol of Faith

              I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth,
              of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ,
              the only-begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages;
              God of God, light of light, true God of true God; begotten, not made,
              consubstantial with the Father, by whom all things were made:
              who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from the heavens,
              and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man:
              crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, he suffered and was buried;
              and he rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures;
              and he ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of the Father ;
              and again he will come with glory to judge the living and the dead;
              of whose kingdom there shall be no end: and in the Holy Ghost the Lord,
              and the giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son;
              who with the Father and the Son together is adored and glorified;
              who spoke by the prophets and one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

              I confess one baptism for the remission of sins;
              and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
              and the life of the world to come.

              Amen.

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/third-session.htm

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #59 on: December 24, 2023, 08:15:44 AM »
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  • As it’s quite obvious that summer is nigh, this is for the willfully ignorant who, for various reasons, don’t want to recognize that the NO church is not the Catholic Church and it’s head is not the pope:


    Temple Destruction Foretold
    1AND Jesus being come out of the temple, went away. And his disciples came to shew him the buildings of the temple.  2And he answering, said to them: Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you there shall not be left here a stone upon a stone that shall not be destroyed. 
    3And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world? 
    4And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: 
    False Christs
    5For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many.  6And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.  7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places:  8Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. 
    Witnessing to All Nations
    9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name's sake.  10And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another.  11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many.  12And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.  13But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.  14And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. 
    The Abomination of Desolation
    15When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.  16Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains:  17And he that is on the housetop, let him not come down to take any thing out of his house:  18And he that is in the field, let him not go back to take his coat.  19And woe to them that are with child, and that give suck in those days.  20But pray that your flight be not in the winter, or on the sabbath.  21For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be.  22And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.  23Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him.  24For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.  25Behold I have told it to you, beforehand. 
    The Return of the Son of Man
    26If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not.  27For as lightning cometh out of the east, and appeareth even into the west: so shall the coming of the Son of man be.  28Wheresoever the body shall be, there shall the eagles also be gathered together. 
    29And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.  31And he shall send his angels with a trumpet, and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them. 
    The lesson of the Fig Tree
    32And from the fig tree learn a parable: When the branch thereof is now tender, and the leaves come forth, you know that summer is nigh.  33So you also, when you shall see all these things, know ye that it is nigh, even at the doors.  34Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.  35Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass. 
    Be Ready at Any Hour
    36But of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone.  37And as in the days of Noe, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  38For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, even till that day in which Noe entered into the ark,  39And they knew not till the flood came, and took them all away; so also shall the coming of the Son of man be.  40Then two shall be in the field: one shall be taken, and one shall be left.  41Two women shall be grinding at the mill: one shall be taken, and one shall be left. 
    42Watch ye therefore, because ye know not what hour your Lord will come.  43But know this ye, that if the goodman of the house knew at what hour the thief would come, he would certainly watch, and would not suffer his house to be broken open.  44Wherefore be you also ready, because at what hour you know not the Son of man will come. 
    45Who, thinkest thou, is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath appointed over his family, to give them meat in season.  46Blessed is that servant, whom when his lord shall come he shall find so doing.  47Amen I say to you, he shall place him over all his goods.  48But if that evil servant shall say in his heart: My lord is long a coming:  49And shall begin to strike his fellow servants, and shall eat and drink with drunkards:  50The lord of that servant shall come in a day that he hopeth not, and at an hour that he knoweth not:  51And shall separate him, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?