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Author Topic: The pope question is a red herring  (Read 7599 times)

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Offline Your Friend Colin

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Re: The pope question is a red herring
« Reply #75 on: December 25, 2023, 01:26:40 PM »
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  • Of course I agree, but this presumes they are quoting / explaining (defining) Scripture, or essentially repeating the Magisterium (what the Church has always taught), or what the Church has previously defined ex cathedra.

    Even Quo Primum is not infallible, it is certainly not an infallible doctrine, what it is, is a Church law, binding on all Roman Rite Catholics, established via the *supreme authority of the pope,* St. Pius V.
    The limitations you placed are directly contrary to what Fr Fenton, Salaverri and Billot asserted. 

    I don’t hold Quo Primum to be an irreformable decree. I’m not sure why you mentioned that. 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #76 on: December 26, 2023, 05:28:59 AM »
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  • Can you show me where the church teaches a Pope can proclaim pernicious error or heresy to the whole world in his official teaching capacity?
    There is no such teaching. The Church only teaches to beware of pernicious error or heresy whatever the source.



    Quote
    So far, I’ve cited a plethora of Magisterial docuмents to the contrary.

    Even without the quotes I’ve thus provided, this can simply be deduced from the Indefectibility of the Church, which teaches that she cannot become corrupt in matter and faith and morals and that she will remain substantially the same in her divine mission, doctrines, disciplines and liturgy. This is a divinely revealed truth.
    You've cited theologians who've done what V1 condemns as far as abandoning the meaning of the dogma. Again, the pope is not the Church. The Church, which is Christ, will remain without blemish and last until the end of time.

    Until some time before the last judgement, there will always be converts, people finding out, getting the answers they seek to join the Church and have hope of saving their souls - in spite of all appearances of the Church being destroyed and in spite of all the heresies and abominations flooding every nook and cranny of this world. This is the Church's indefectibility working. 

    When the pope engages his papal infallibility, he must intend to engage his infallibility. The V2 popes themselves literally and explicitly said that they did not engage their papal infallibility at V2 - that's one thing about V2 that is truth. The other truth is that V2, due to such a radical departure from the Church's Magisterium, everyone should know there's no papal infallibility in it. The pioneering trads knew this truth, truth does not change.

    But as your above quote demonstrates, when theologians wrongfully teach that popes are divinely protected from teaching error to the whole Church and that such a thing is impossible, the people will believe what they learned from the theologians, whose wrong teachings were widely published as authentic Church teaching.

    Had the theologians all echoed V1's clear teaching of exactly when it is that popes enjoy the divine protection from error, and / or had V1 been as widely published as the theologians' teachings, there would be no, or much less confusion in the matter.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #77 on: December 26, 2023, 06:01:01 AM »
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  • The limitations you placed are directly contrary to what Fr Fenton, Salaverri and Billot asserted.

    I don’t hold Quo Primum to be an irreformable decree. I’m not sure why you mentioned that.
    Yes indeed! The limitations you correctly note are placed by V1, not me - and you are correct, those limitations are indeed contrary to what Fr Fenton, Salaverri and Billot asserted. Which is to say simply, they *all* contradict V1.

    I only mentioned Quo Primum as an example intended to demonstrate the difference between papal infallibility and papal authority. And yes, make no mistake about it, Quo Primum is indeed an irreformable decree on the Church's Liturgy of the Roman Rite - the pope, St. Pius V, intended to and actually made it irreformable. He can do that because as pope, he has that supreme authority, and he used his supreme authority to bind everyone, even future popes to this law.

    Dogma is binding because of what it is, the pope binds us to it under pain of mortal sin - he binds us to it using the same supreme authority as was used for Quo Primum. But there is no mistake about it, it is the truth that we are bound to.      
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #78 on: December 26, 2023, 07:58:55 AM »
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  • Yes indeed! The limitations you correctly note are placed by V1, not me - and you are correct, those limitations are indeed contrary to what Fr Fenton, Salaverri and Billot asserted. Which is to say simply, they *all* contradict V1.

    I only mentioned Quo Primum as an example intended to demonstrate the difference between papal infallibility and papal authority. And yes, make no mistake about it, Quo Primum is indeed an irreformable decree on the Church's Liturgy of the Roman Rite - the pope, St. Pius V, intended to and actually made it irreformable. He can do that because as pope, he has that supreme authority, and he used his supreme authority to bind everyone, even future popes to this law.

    Dogma is binding because of what it is, the pope binds us to it under pain of mortal sin - he binds us to it using the same supreme authority as was used for Quo Primum. But there is no mistake about it, it is the truth that we are bound to.     
    So you’re asking me to disregard Billot, Franzelin, Salaverri, Fenton and the accompanying Magisterial docuмents since Vatican I they use to support their assertions? And I’m supposed to just believe you because you say they’re wrong and your interpretation of Papal infallibility is correct, even though you’ve cited no text in your favor? 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #79 on: December 26, 2023, 08:11:52 AM »
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  • So you’re asking me to disregard Billot, Franzelin, Salaverri, Fenton and the accompanying Magisterial docuмents since Vatican I they use to support their assertions? And I’m supposed to just believe you because you say they’re wrong and your interpretation of Papal infallibility is correct, even though you’ve cited no text in your favor?
    No, you are not supposed to believe me, but you are bound to believe V1. Which is to say you are bound to reject everyone and everything contrary to V1.

    It is elementary to see the above theologians contradict V1 if you read V1 and also read those theologians. OTOH, it is impossible for Magisterial docuмents to contradict V1.  If you think otherwise then you are not correctly understanding either the Magisterial docuмents, or not understanding V1, or not understanding either.

    Too many believe as apparently you also believe, that the theologian's teachings are Magisterial docuмents - they're not.

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #80 on: December 26, 2023, 08:18:26 AM »
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  • And then there's this fwiw:
    3.1. Can a pope be heretic? It has been taught by various popes that a pope can teach heresy against the Faith. Pope Adrian VI († 1523) stated that: "If by the Roman Church you mean its head or pontiff, it is beyond question that he can err even in matters touching the faith. He does this when he teaches heresy by his own judgment or decretal. In truth, many Roman pontiffs were heretics. The last of them was Pope John XXII († 1334)." Venerable Pope Pius IX († 1878) recognized the danger that a future pope would be a heretic and "teach [] contrary to the Catholic Faith", and he instructed, "do not follow him". He said: "If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith, do not follow him." (Letter to Bishop Brizen).
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #81 on: December 26, 2023, 12:58:21 PM »
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  • No, you are not supposed to believe me, but you are bound to believe V1. Which is to say you are bound to reject everyone and everything contrary to V1.

    It is elementary to see the above theologians contradict V1 if you read V1 and also read those theologians. OTOH, it is impossible for Magisterial docuмents to contradict V1.  If you think otherwise then you are not correctly understanding either the Magisterial docuмents, or not understanding V1, or not understanding either.

    Too many believe as apparently you also believe, that the theologian's teachings are Magisterial docuмents - they're not.

     
    Who are the rightful interpreters of the decrees of Vatican I? Is it you? 

    To your last statement, even if they were Magisterial, you would ignore them anyway. In your system, the only mode of promulgating binding teachings are infallible, ex cathedra proclamations with grand solemnity, contrary to the entire history of the Church and common Catholic sense. 

    You fail to recognize the distinction between teachings requiring divine, Catholic Faith and those requiring lower degrees of assent such as ecclesiastical faith or religious assent. 

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #82 on: December 26, 2023, 01:04:30 PM »
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  • Stubborn, the following Magisterial teaching completely destroys your entire way of thinking. Will you humbly submit to the Roman Pontiff’s teaching authority, or audaciously resist, and accuse him of being erroneous, since it’s “nOt aN eX cAtHeDrA” pronouncement 


    Quote
    For it is quite foreign to everyone bearing the name of a Christian to trust his own mental powers with such pride as to agree only with those things which he can examine from their inner nature, and to imagine that the Church, sent by God to teach and guide all nations, is not conversant with present affairs and circuмstances; or even that they must obey only in those matters which she has decreed by solemn definition as though her other decisions might be presumed to be false or putting forward insufficient motive for truth and honesty. Quite to the contrary, a characteristic of all true followers of Christ, lettered or unlettered, is to suffer themselves to be guided and led in all things that touch upon faith or morals by the Holy Church of God through its Supreme Pastor the Roman Pontiff, who is himself guided by Jesus Christ Our Lord.

    (Pope Pius XI, Encyclical Casti Connubii, n. 104)


    Completely annihilates R&R 


    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #83 on: December 26, 2023, 01:23:00 PM »
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  • And then there's this fwiw:
    3.1. Can a pope be heretic? It has been taught by various popes that a pope can teach heresy against the Faith. Pope Adrian VI († 1523) stated that: "If by the Roman Church you mean its head or pontiff, it is beyond question that he can err even in matters touching the faith. He does this when he teaches heresy by his own judgment or decretal. In truth, many Roman pontiffs were heretics. The last of them was Pope John XXII († 1334)." Venerable Pope Pius IX († 1878) recognized the danger that a future pope would be a heretic and "teach [] contrary to the Catholic Faith", and he instructed, "do not follow him". He said: "If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith, do not follow him." (Letter to Bishop Brizen).

    Pope John XXII taught this as a private theologian, not to the universal Church. His doctrine never appeared in any Magisterial docuмent. And the matter had not been decreed to be of divine Catholic faith, which meant it was up for discussion. 

    The SSPX are so slimy. They find one quote, take it out of context, make no distinctions, ignore the plethora of evidence to the contrary, and then say “See! Look! We got ‘em!” They are not serious about the truth. 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #84 on: December 26, 2023, 02:19:36 PM »
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  • Who are the rightful interpreters of the decrees of Vatican I? Is it you?
    Well, when V1 says the pope is infallible when he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, and theologians turn that into "he cannot teach error to the whole Church," anyone with elementary reading comprehension can interpret that to see the theologians have changed the dogma.

    V1 tells you exactly when he is infallible. The theologians tell you he cannot teach error. See the diff? The conciliar popes themselves believe as the sedes believe, and also as the NOers believe, which is as theologians teach - which is not how it is because it's not what V1 teaches. 

    Quote
    To your last statement, even if they were Magisterial, you would ignore them anyway. In your system, the only mode of promulgating binding teachings are infallible, ex cathedra proclamations with grand solemnity, contrary to the entire history of the Church and common Catholic sense.

    You fail to recognize the distinction between teachings requiring divine, Catholic Faith and those requiring lower degrees of assent such as ecclesiastical faith or religious assent.No, this is false.
    Magisterial teachings can be and most often are binding. Ex cathedra decrees are merely doctrines, (which are beliefs the Church has always held), defined ex cathedra and are always binding. Both teachings are binding because we owe our religious assent to the truth, it is on that account that we owe our religious assent to all magisterial teachings whether infallible or not, albeit not always with the same degree of religious assent that we owe to dogmas.

    In the case of the V2 docuмents, I don't know what I'd call those - certainly not Magisterial teachings because any Catholic truth within them is used for nefarious purposes and is hidden in ambiguity among heresies.  
     

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #85 on: December 26, 2023, 02:24:52 PM »
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  • Stubborn, the following Magisterial teaching completely destroys your entire way of thinking. Will you humbly submit to the Roman Pontiff’s teaching authority, or audaciously resist, and accuse him of being erroneous, since it’s “nOt aN eX cAtHeDrA” pronouncement



    Completely annihilates R&R
    It does not destroy my way of thinking, nor does it annihilate R&R.

    I think I can speak for all non-sede trads when I say that I already submit to the popes' teaching authority in everything he teaches that does not offend God. After the words of St. Thomas More: I remain the pope's good subject, but God's first.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #86 on: December 26, 2023, 02:37:54 PM »
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  • For it is quite foreign to everyone bearing the name of a Christian to trust his own mental powers with such pride as to agree only with those things which he can examine from their inner nature, and to imagine that the Church, sent by God to teach and guide all nations, is not conversant with present affairs and circuмstances; or even that they must obey only in those matters which she has decreed by solemn definition as though her other decisions might be presumed to be false or putting forward insufficient motive for truth and honesty. Quite to the contrary, a characteristic of all true followers of Christ, lettered or unlettered, is to suffer themselves to be guided and led in all things that touch upon faith or morals by the Holy Church of God through its Supreme Pastor the Roman Pontiff, who is himself guided by Jesus Christ Our Lord.

    (Pope Pius XI, Encyclical Casti Connubii, n. 104)


    Completely annihilates R&R
    Excellent quote.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #87 on: December 26, 2023, 02:39:41 PM »
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  • Excellent quote.
    Yes, it certainly is!
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #88 on: December 26, 2023, 09:30:46 PM »
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  • Who are the rightful interpreters of the decrees of Vatican I? Is it you?
    No interpretation of Vatican I is required, the definition is clear beyond all doubt, it must be accepted not interpreted. Interpreting definitions is what modernists do.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #89 on: December 26, 2023, 10:01:38 PM »
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  • For it is quite foreign to everyone bearing the name of a Christian to trust his own mental powers with such pride as to agree only with those things which he can examine from their inner nature, and to imagine that the Church, sent by God to teach and guide all nations, is not conversant with present affairs and circuмstances; or even that they must obey only in those matters which she has decreed by solemn definition as though her other decisions might be presumed to be false or putting forward insufficient motive for truth and honesty. Quite to the contrary, a characteristic of all true followers of Christ, lettered or unlettered, is to suffer themselves to be guided and led in all things that touch upon faith or morals by the Holy Church of God through its Supreme Pastor the Roman Pontiff, who is himself guided by Jesus Christ Our Lord.

    (Pope Pius XI, Encyclical Casti Connubii, n. 104)




    Completely annihilates R&R
    No, this doesn't annihilate R&R at all.

    Just like the quote from Pope Pius XII provided earlier in the thread by QVD, it is laying down the attitude a faithful Catholic ought to have towards the Magisterium.

    It certainly is not teaching that the Roman Pontiff is infallibly guided by Our Lord Jesus Christ whenever he pronounces on faith and morals, thus dispensing with every condition for infallibility just laid down by the First Vatican Council in a solemn definition that it very clearly stated was in accord with the Tradition received.
    It is utterly ludicrous and makes a mockery of the Magisterium to hold to such an absurdity.

    If that were the intention of Popes Pius XI and Pius XII, to contradict what had just been defined (as if they could do so! - unless you use some kind of mental gymnastics to pretend it was not a contradiction, just an addition), then clearly they would have had to do so with equal force and solemnity.

    Undoubtedly, in this context, it is to be understood that it is not without very serious reason that one may resist the Roman Pontiff, it would clearly be an extraordinary thing, it is not the ordinary attitude of a Catholic. Just as it is not the ordinary attitude of a child towards his parents. And a Pope teaching contrary to Tradition, as we have seen with since VII, is obviously just such an extraordinary situation.

    It is fanciful indeed to interpret these quotes from Pius XI and XII as meaning that the Pope could never teach contrary to Tradition and if he did we would either have to
    1. follow him anyway (Conciliar Catholics), or
    2. declare him not to be Pope (Sedevacantists)

    Yes VII and Colin, these are excellent quotes, but please understand them in the Catholic sense and do not pit them against the solemn definition of infallibility, as received from the Fathers and Tradition, of Vatican I.