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Author Topic: The pope question is a red herring  (Read 7600 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: The pope question is a red herring
« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2023, 09:53:13 AM »
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  • Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis:

    “Neither must it be thought that what is set forth in encyclical letters does not of itself demand consent on the grounds that in writing such letters the pontiffs do not exercise the supreme authority of their Magisterium.  For these things are taught by the ordinary Magisterium, concerning which the words ‘He that hears you hears me` are also applicable…  The greater part of what is proposed and set forth in encyclicals already belongs to Catholic doctrine on other grounds.  But if the sovereign pontiffs should pronounce an express judgment in their official docuмents upon a matter previously subject to dispute it is plain to all that according to the mind and intention of the same pontiffs this point cannot be any longer considered a matter of free dispute among theologians.”  (Dz 2313)
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #61 on: December 24, 2023, 09:58:52 AM »
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  • More evidence that, ultimately, the Pope is the rule of faith: :fryingpan:



    St Peter’s successors = rule of faith
    And what/who is the pope's rule of faith? According to you and the other sedes, he's his own rule of faith. All we can say to that, is :facepalm:

    Because sedes never reply with answers, I don't expect one, but it is something you should ask, and answer honestly at least to yourself.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #62 on: December 24, 2023, 10:03:23 AM »
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  • I had a huge debate with a poster name Drew who said that "Tradition" is the rule of faith ... as he failed to distinguish between remote and proximate.

    Now, this does not mean that the Pope is infallible every time he breaks wind, but Msgr. Fenton's explanation provides the most balanced Catholic articulation between the extremes of considering everything he says infallible and allowing his Magisterium to become so corrupt that it's not only no longer a reliable rule of faith, but that it can even become harmful to souls.
    Then per his explanation (which after V2 even he did not believe - but far as I know he never corrected himself), all trads should denounce tradism and convert to the NO, which is what the popes (and all the bishops in union with him) preach and on that account, not only can it not harm the faithful but is pleasing to God.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #63 on: December 24, 2023, 11:22:56 AM »
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  • Then per his explanation (which after V2 even he did not believe - but far as I know he never corrected himself)...
    In the links below is a truly excellent Fr. Fenton rant from 1977 or so - and his rant gets better as the talk goes on until the end of part 2.

     What you'll hear is Fr. Fenton, albeit being a bit late to the party, echoing what other faithful priests, including Fr. Wathen, were preaching for years before him and since V2. These recordings kinda remind me a little of the +Vigano situation.

     At any rate, I found it well worth listening to both parts in their entirety. He starts contradicting that quote of his that you post all the time starting at about the 4:30 mark in part 2, by the 6:07 mark you will find that he himself has confirmed much of the jjst of what I've been saying in contradiction to his quote. 

    Part 1 (23:42 min. long): https://rumble.com/v3vbhxn-fr.-francis-fenton-the-destruction-of-vatican-ii-audio-1-of-2.html?mref=6zof&mrefc=2

    Part 2 (18:53 min. long): https://rumble.com/v3vbipz-fr.-francis-fenton-the-destruction-of-vatican-ii-audio-2-of-2.html?mref=6zof&mrefc=3

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #64 on: December 24, 2023, 01:57:48 PM »
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  • Then per his explanation (which after V2 even he did not believe - but far as I know he never corrected himself), all trads should denounce tradism and convert to the NO, which is what the popes (and all the bishops in union with him) preach and on that account, not only can it not harm the faithful but is pleasing to God.
    Ladislaus is referring to the theologian, Joseph Clifford Fenton who died in 1969. He is not Fr. Francis E Fenton, to whom you refer. 



    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #65 on: December 24, 2023, 02:01:47 PM »
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  • There is nothing absurd about it. We cannot exclude that possibility, since the Church has never taught the contrary. What we can state with absolute certainty is that when the Pope engages his infallibility, as defined by Vatican I, then, and then only, is his infallibility guaranteed. When he is not infallible as defined by the Church, the possibility of his being fallible is obvious. Unless you want to be your own pope and construct your own dogmas. Here is Vatican I: accept it and submit as a good child of Holy Mother Church:

    • For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter
      • not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine,
      • but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.
      Indeed, their apostolic teaching was
      • embraced by all the venerable fathers and
      • reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors,
      for they knew very well that this see of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Saviour to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren [60] .
    • This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell.
    • But since in this very age when the salutary effectiveness of the apostolic office is most especially needed, not a few are to be found who disparage its authority, we judge it absolutely necessary to affirm solemnly the prerogative which the only-begotten Son of God was pleased to attach to the supreme pastoral office.
    • Therefore,
      • faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith,
      • to the glory of God our saviour,
      • for the exaltation of the catholic religion and
      • for the salvation of the christian people,
      • with the approval of the sacred council,

      • we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that
        • when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
          • that is, when,
          • in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
          • in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
          • he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
        • he possesses,
          • by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
        • that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
        • Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

      So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.
    Just to clarify: you believe the Church is capable of teaching pernicious errors to all the faithful concerning matters of faith and morals? 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #66 on: December 24, 2023, 03:30:17 PM »
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  • Ladislaus is referring to the theologian, Joseph Clifford Fenton who died in 1969. He is not Fr. Francis E Fenton, to whom you refer.
    Ah thanks, I missed that completely.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #67 on: December 24, 2023, 03:52:26 PM »
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  • Msg. Joseph Clifford Fenton
    Infallibility in the Encyclicals
    American Ecclesiastical Review


    Quote
     It would be unthinkable that the Vicar of Christ could speak, in his official capacity to the entire Church militant, on a matter of faith or morals, definitively settling a question by a decision which he wishes to constitute as irrevocable and which he commands the faithful to accept as irrevocably and absolutely true, without being protected by his charism of doctrinal infallibility.

    Thus circuмstantial solemnity, as such, has no absolutely neces- sary connection with the infallibility of a pontifical definition.




    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #68 on: December 25, 2023, 05:24:17 AM »
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  • Msg. Joseph Clifford Fenton
    Infallibility in the Encyclicals
    American Ecclesiastical Review

    Quote
     It would be unthinkable that the Vicar of Christ could speak, in his official capacity to the entire Church militant, on a matter of faith or morals, definitively settling a question by a decision which he wishes to constitute as irrevocable and which he commands the faithful to accept as irrevocably and absolutely true, without being protected by his charism of doctrinal infallibility.

    Thus circuмstantial solemnity, as such, has no absolutely neces- sary connection with the infallibility of a pontifical definition.
    Since V2, it is no longer unthinkable - as the recordings of the other Fr. Fenton above say. His last sentence you quoted here, double talks what he just said prior in your quote. But what he ends up teaching in that last sentence, is the message everyone gets from that sentence, which is that the pope has additional infallibility not taught at V1, i.e. not only doctrinal, but also personal, (he more clearly articulates his error in this quote) and most people believe his error to be an authentic teaching of the Church - and the sedes use this error of personal infallibility as their impetus for insisting popes are not popes.

    V1 is quite clear on the conditions for papal infallibility, namely, 1) when he defines a doctrine 2)concerning faith or morals 3)to be held by the whole Church. As such, whenever the pope wants to settle a question by an irrevocable decision infallibly, then he must do so according to the requirements of papal infallibly as defined at V1.
      
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #69 on: December 25, 2023, 09:06:36 AM »
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  • Since V2, it is no longer unthinkable - as the recordings of the other Fr. Fenton above say. His last sentence you quoted here, double talks what he just said prior in your quote. But what he ends up teaching in that last sentence, is the message everyone gets from that sentence, which is that the pope has additional infallibility not taught at V1, i.e. not only doctrinal, but also personal, (he more clearly articulates his error in this quote) and most people believe his error to be an authentic teaching of the Church - and the sedes use this error of personal infallibility as their impetus for insisting popes are not popes.

    V1 is quite clear on the conditions for papal infallibility, namely, 1) when he defines a doctrine 2)concerning faith or morals 3)to be held by the whole Church. As such, whenever the pope wants to settle a question by an irrevocable decision infallibly, then he must do so according to the requirements of papal infallibly as defined at V1.
     
    Earlier in the article:
    Quote
    The second reason commonly alleged against the existence of infallible teaching in the papal encyclicals is founded on the two- fold contention that the Holy Father speaks infallibly only when he issues a definition or declaration ex cathedra and that a state-
    ment in a papal encyclical cannot be an ex cathedra pronouncement. 

    Both Cardinal Billot and Fr. Salaverri oppose the first of these statements. Both are convinced that there are infallible doctrinal statements issued by the Holy Father which do not lend themselves to classification as ex cathedra judgments. It is in line with this conviction that Cardinal Billot was willing to admit the existence of infallible teachings in the papal encyclicals, which he did not
    consider to be ex cathedra docuмents.
    the beginning of the article, Fenton states:
    Quote
    Cardinal Louis Billot was certainly one of the greatest ecclesi- ologists of the generation just past. There are many who consider him the ablest writer on the treatise de ecclesia since the time of the Vatican Council. Fr. Joachim Salaverri, of the Jesuit faculty of theology in the Pontifical Institute of Comillas in Spain, holds very much the same position in the theological world of the mid- twentieth century that Cardinal Billot occupied in that of fifty years ago.
    So we have three heavy weight theologians holding that infallible teaching can be contained in Encyclicals not classified as ex cathedra. That can’t be dismissed.

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #70 on: December 25, 2023, 11:33:40 AM »
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  • Continued:


    Quote
    The fact of the matter is that every doctrine taught by the Holy Father in his capacity as the Vicar of Christ must, by the very con- stitution of the Church militant of the New Testament, be accepted by the faithful for what it is. If it is an infallible declaration, it is to be accepted with an absolutely firm and irrevocable assent. If it is a non-infallible statement, it must be accepted with a firm but
    conditional mental assent. Actually there is no such thing as a teaching issued by the Holy Father in his capacity as the spiritual ruler and teacher of all the followers of Jesus Christ which is other than authoritative. Our Lord did not teach in any way other than authoritatively, nor does His Vicar on earth when he teaches in the name and by the author- ity of his Master. Every doctrine proposed by the Holy Father to the entire Church militant is, by that very fact, imposed upon all the
    faithful for their firm and sincere acceptance.



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #71 on: December 25, 2023, 11:39:58 AM »
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  • So we have three heavy weight theologians holding that infallible teaching can be contained in Encyclicals not classified as ex cathedra. That can’t be dismissed.
    Of course I agree, but this presumes they are quoting / explaining (defining) Scripture, or essentially repeating the Magisterium (what the Church has always taught), or what the Church has previously defined ex cathedra.

    Even Quo Primum is not infallible, it is certainly not an infallible doctrine, what it is, is a Church law, binding on all Roman Rite Catholics, established via the *supreme authority of the pope,* St. Pius V.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #72 on: December 25, 2023, 11:52:40 AM »
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  • Continued:

    Quote
    The fact of the matter is that every doctrine taught by the Holy Father in his capacity as the Vicar of Christ must, by the very con- stitution of the Church militant of the New Testament, be accepted by the faithful for what it is. If it is an infallible declaration, it is to be accepted with an absolutely firm and irrevocable assent. If it is a non-infallible statement, it must be accepted with a firm but
    conditional mental assent. Actually there is no such thing as a teaching issued by the Holy Father in his capacity as the spiritual ruler and teacher of all the followers of Jesus Christ which is other than authoritative. Our Lord did not teach in any way other than authoritatively, nor does His Vicar on earth when he teaches in the name and by the author- ity of his Master. Every doctrine proposed by the Holy Father to the entire Church militant is, by that very fact, imposed upon all the
    faithful for their firm and sincere acceptance.
    "For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine." - V1

    Note V1 does not say the pope cannot preach some new doctrine, or that the Holy Ghost will prevent popes from teaching new doctrines. Yet this is what is implied or meant in your Fr. Fenton quotes, as well as in the teachings of many other pre-V2 theologians.  

    In this matter, it is best to use V1 verbatim and exclusively, and either do not use theologians at all, or, if you can find any, use only theologians that agree with V1 without adding anything to it "under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding."

    V1 also states: "Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been
    declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #73 on: December 25, 2023, 01:13:51 PM »
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  • V1 is quite clear on the conditions for papal infallibility, namely, 1) when he defines a doctrine 2)concerning faith or morals 3)to be held by the whole Church. As such, whenever the pope wants to settle a question by an irrevocable decision infallibly, then he must do so according to the requirements of papal infallibly as defined at V1.
     
    Agreed. But this definition need not necessarily be proclaimed in a grand solemnity such as the Assumption. 

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: The pope question is a red herring
    « Reply #74 on: December 25, 2023, 01:18:30 PM »
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  • "For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine." - V1

    Note V1 does not say the pope cannot preach some new doctrine, or that the Holy Ghost will prevent popes from teaching new doctrines. Yet this is what is implied or meant in your Fr. Fenton quotes, as well as in the teachings of many other pre-V2 theologians. 

    In this matter, it is best to use V1 verbatim and exclusively, and either do not use theologians at all, or, if you can find any, use only theologians that agree with V1 without adding anything to it "under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding."

    V1 also states: "Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been
    declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding."
    Can you show me where the church teaches a Pope can proclaim pernicious error or heresy to the whole world in his official teaching capacity? 

    So far, I’ve cited a plethora of Magisterial docuмents to the contrary. 

    Even without the quotes I’ve thus provided, this can simply be deduced from the Indefectibility of the Church, which teaches that she cannot become corrupt in matter and faith and morals and that she will remain substantially the same in her divine mission, doctrines, disciplines and liturgy. This is a divinely revealed truth.