I thought this merited a thread of it's own.

The pope question, as it were, is but a distraction/red herring.

The real problem is that -- regardless of who is or is not the legitimate head of the society that purports to be the Catholic Church --  a society that is supposed to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, the spotless Bride of Christ, without blemish and the single, solitary means of sanctification and salvation is, and has been for several decades, naught but a source of confusion, spiritual destruction, endless scandal, etc.  Whether he is or is not legitimate, solving that issue doesn't alter the cold, hard, unspeakably-sad fact that what used to be Holy Mother Church has, to all appearances, become an absolutely shameless harlot leading millions to eternal misery.

Address that.

Because the Church always was and always will be "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, the spotless Bride of Christ, without blemish and the single, solitary means of sanctification and salvation," and because we know that the conciliar church is "a source of confusion, spiritual destruction, endless scandal, etc." we know that the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church.

"Whether he is or is not legitimate, solving that issue doesn't alter the cold, hard, unspeakably-sad fact that what used to be Holy Mother Church has, to all appearances, become an absolutely shameless harlot leading millions to eternal misery." Well stated, this is absolutely true.

Although true, it is a bit of a misnomer to say the conciliar church is leading millions to eternal misery - as if those millions are powerless to do anything about it. The truth is that by and large, people are not, and will not be led to where they do not already want to go.

Consider if the numbers of trads vs NOers were reversed from day 1 of this mess. There would be about 99.9999% of the faithful who rejected the NO, and only .0001% of the faithful who accepted the NO. If, as it should have been, this were the case, then this mess would have ended almost as soon as it began. Which is to say that all those who accepted the NO shared in the feeding and perpetrating of it - and each share in some of the guilt for having done so.

Not sure I'm saying this right but to place all of the blame on the pope(s) for V2 and etc. is wrong, because doing so ignores the multitudes who are also guilty of perpetrating it via their acceptance of it of their own free will.

Anyway Gladius, without side tracking the other thread, I just wanted to address your query that others seemed to be ignoring.

I understand how some people can think this way. I used to do so quite a few years back.

Of course Bergoglio is a manifest formal heretic, not merely a material heretic. If one doesn't believe so, then he or she is in complete denial. However, with that being said, I truly believe that if the heart of the Christian is "unity" then almighty God can be understanding of our schismatic situations of which we had no part in causing and of which our hearts want the end of. 

Who to blame for the Crisis is also a red herring. The Crisis happened because it was due to happen, in God's plan for the world.

Let's face it, 90% of those suffering during the current Crisis weren't even alive in the 1950's to be worldly, ungrateful, Americanist, or whatever we collectively did to "deserve" it.

As I've said so many times, this isn't a 5 or 10 year old Crisis. More like 53 years old and counting. That's two whole generations.

The Crisis in the Church happened because it was God's will. He will bring greater good out of it. And He will end it when He pleases to, and not a moment before. God is fully in control and it's all in God's hands.

I don't think the pope question is a distraction....

I think people have allowed the pope question to be a distraction. 

The pope is our rule of faith, and the unity of the faith demands that we have this discussion. 

According to Pope Leo XIII, the pope is the principle and center of the unity of the Church:

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum

When the Divine founder decreed that the Church should be one in faith, in government, and in communion, He chose Peter and his successors as the principle and centre, as it were, of this unity. 

...In this Peter, the head of all the Apostles (hence his name Cephas), has sat; in which chair alone unity was to be preserved for all...

...No one, therefore, unless in communion with Peter can share in his authority, since it is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.


Only a small, misguided minority deny that Bergoglio is a heretic...those who believe Bergoglio to be the pope, the principle and center of the unity of the Church, share in the unity of faith with a heretic. 

This seems worthy of discussion...not distraction.  There are serious implications for accepting a heretic as your rule of faith.

Unfortunately, for so many die hard Lefebvrists and Resisters of whatever flavor, no matter how compelling the evidence you provide from the Magisterium is, they will remain blind to the truth and obstinate in their errors. 

Who to blame for the Crisis is also a red herring. The Crisis happened because it was due to happen, in God's plan for the world.

Let's face it, 90% of those suffering during the current Crisis weren't even alive in the 1950's to be worldly, ungrateful, Americanist, or whatever we collectively did to "deserve" it.

As I've said so many times, this isn't a 5 or 10 year old Crisis. More like 53 years old and counting. That's two whole generations.

The Crisis in the Church happened because it was God's will. He will bring greater good out of it. And He will end it when He pleases to, and not a moment before. God is fully in control and it's all in God's hands.

I think this is well said...and I agree.  ie, Bishop Williamson's 1950's talk...comfortability, etc.

Show me the proof of his formal heresy, I don't follow him very closely. Thank you.

If you believe he's the pope, why don't you follow him closely?  He's your rule of faith...  

The evidence is pretty clear on this guy...do yourself a favor, and learn more about your Catholic Faith.  You seem somewhat engaged on this forum, surely you can do some research on the man you consider the principle and center of the unity of faith...no?  

If you believe he's the pope, why don't you follow him closely?  He's your rule of faith... 

That is the question that finally landed me, after kicking and screaming, into sedevacantism.