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Author Topic: The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????  (Read 25438 times)

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Offline Leisa

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The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
« Reply #90 on: October 24, 2010, 05:36:03 PM »
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  • It's ok, we don't have to discuss it.  I don't want Thaddeus to loose consciousness.

    I did read John chapter 3 slowly though and I feel pretty satisfied or contented with it.  If Jesus says it is so then its so.

    There's no need to complicate it.  Not only did he say it, but he also did it (water baptism) there in Judea while John was baptizing in Ennon where there was a lot of water.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #91 on: October 24, 2010, 06:16:22 PM »
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  • Of course He meant it, Jesus instituted the Sacrament, seven of them.  Baptism of desire or blood is NOT a sacrament, but it has the effect of giving Sanctifying grace, which is all one needs to save their soul.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

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    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #92 on: October 24, 2010, 06:26:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Leisa
    It's ok, we don't have to discuss it.  I don't want Thaddeus to loose consciousness.

    I did read John chapter 3 slowly though and I feel pretty satisfied or contented with it.  If Jesus says it is so then its so.

    There's no need to complicate it.  Not only did he say it, but he also did it (water baptism) there in Judea while John was baptizing in Ennon where there was a lot of water.


    Actually, Leisa, according to John 4, Jesus Himself did not baptize. Only His disciples did:

    Quote
    When Jesus therefore understood that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus maketh more disciples, and baptizeth more than John, [2] (Though Jesus himself did not baptize, but his disciples,)


    http://drbo.org/chapter/50004.htm

    This to me is an argument against BOD and BOB, because we see here that it is the disciples who do the baptizing, not God Himself. Another human person must do it. But I have been told I'm wrong on this so many times and with so much verbiage that I have given up and accept that apparently Jesus's words don't mean what Jesus said.

    My personal opinion--opinion, mind you--is that there has been an ongoing discussion/argument/fight about this inside the Church for centuries. That is why popes, bishops, saints, and theologians' statements seem to contradict each other. For example, look at the emphasis the Rev. Challoner puts on the "water" part in his version and comments for the Douay-Rheims:

    Quote
    Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    [5] "Unless a man be born again"... By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19.


    http://drbo.org/chapter/50003.htm

     So apparently there was disagreement on these matters long before the modern age.

    Myself, I incline toward the strictest interpretation, but am willing to admit that Churchmen much more knowledgeable than I have allowed for some exceptions, such as martyrs and catechumens.

    Other posters, one in particular who is no longer with us, would accept no compromises at all on this issue. I repeat, my personal inclination is to take Jesus's words in John 3 literally, but I cannot dismiss lightly the weighty views of otherwise orthodox Churchmen of the past to the contrary.

    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.

    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #93 on: October 24, 2010, 06:34:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Of course He meant it, Jesus instituted the Sacrament, seven of them.  Baptism of desire or blood is NOT a sacrament, but it has the effect of giving Sanctifying grace, which is all one needs to save their soul.  


    And of course this is yet another way of looking at it, making a distinction between the sacrament itself and the effects of the sacrament which may be achieved without the normal requirements of the sacrament, much in the same way that the SSPX or sede groups can absolve sins or perform confirmations without ordinary jurisdiction.

    But I do not have enough knowledge to argue these points any further than that. Other posters here do it much better.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.

    Offline trad123

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #94 on: October 24, 2010, 06:35:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    My personal opinion--opinion, mind you--is that there has been an ongoing discussion/argument/fight about this inside the Church for centuries. That is why popes, bishops, saints, and theologians' statements seem to contradict each other.


    I don't know where you see a contradiction.

    Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    For example, look at the emphasis the Rev. Challoner puts on the "water" part in his version and comments for the Douay-Rheims:


    From the same Rev. Challoner:

    LINK


    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #95 on: October 24, 2010, 06:38:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: trad123
    Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    My personal opinion--opinion, mind you--is that there has been an ongoing discussion/argument/fight about this inside the Church for centuries. That is why popes, bishops, saints, and theologians' statements seem to contradict each other.


    I don't know where you see a contradiction.

    Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    For example, look at the emphasis the Rev. Challoner puts on the "water" part in his version and comments for the Douay-Rheims:


    From the same Rev. Challoner:

    LINK




    Here we go again!

    Trad123, why don't you explain the contradiction? If there is one.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.

    Offline trad123

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #96 on: October 24, 2010, 06:43:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    Here we go again!

    Trad123, why don't you explain the contradiction? If there is one.


    First of all, I think it would be better to continue this discussion in the thread about Fr. Feeney, and secondly, since I don't see a contradiction it would be better for you to post some texts that you think seemingly contradict one another, side by side so to speak.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #97 on: October 24, 2010, 06:54:16 PM »
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  • No thank you. I don't have any "texts" to post, and anyway we already filled up page after page of arguments on this subject and I don't think anybody was persuaded to change their opinions.

    The most obvious contradiction is between Jesus's words in John 4 to the effect that a man cannot enter the Kingdom of God unless he has received water baptism and the words of anybody else who says that yes, you can enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism.

    The real challenge here is knowing what the Church Herself infallibly teaches, about which there have also been innumerable threads with innumerable posts claiming to represent the Truth on one side or another. I already said that I was willing to allow for some exceptions as knowledgeable, orthodox Churchmen in the past also had done.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.


    Offline Leisa

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #98 on: October 24, 2010, 07:10:25 PM »
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  • Thaddeus, thank you, Jesus did not personally do the baptizing.  My point was simply that not only did he say they must be baptized, but he physicaly went and had everyone baptized.  So that just reinforces that you can't misinterpret him because he followed the words with the action.  Ie: if you don't believe him when he says so, then you still have to ask yourself well if it's not absolutely necessary, then why did he have everyone baptized and teach them to baptize.

    I think we should look at where the tradition of baptism of desire or blood started.  Is it supported in the bible?  I realize that its an emotional issue because if someone was torn apart by lions the church doesn't want to say 'oh well, thats a pity, they didn't get baptized'.  Or if a catachuman dies tragically before being baptized they don't want to tell the family they are not in Heaven.





    Offline Cheryl

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #99 on: October 24, 2010, 08:09:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    Quote from: Leisa
    Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    I was being dead serious, ma'am.  :cowboy:



    Ok, but now I have to ask, - do you believe in baptism of desire and baptism of blood?  


     :faint:


    This is worthy of a MasterCard commercial, priceless. :laugh2:

    Offline MaterDominici

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #100 on: October 25, 2010, 01:11:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: Leisa
    Quote from: MaterDominici
    Leisa,
    I'm certainly not an expert on such things, but do know that there are different types of heretics...

    material heretic - believes something which is heresy although they don't know it to be such
    formal heretic - knows that the belief they hold is heresy
    pertinacious heretic - a formal heretic who has been corrected by Church authority and yet refuses to submit and discontinue belief in the heresy

    Those who hold to a heresy unknowingly are still within the Church. St. Thomas gives a list of knowledge with is essential to joining the Church. Yes, it is fitting for every Catholic to know all the ins and outs of the Faith, but the essentials is a very short list and there may be those who have joined the Church who are mistaken on any number of things until they are taught otherwise.

    I don't know if it's more proper to refer to such individuals as "material heretics" or "persons holding to a heresy", but either way, they're still within the Church if they've never been taught otherwise.

    As TKGS said, those who fit this catagory are probably not many.


    Ok, so if I'm hearing you correctly, you are saying that you are guilty of the sins you commit even if you didn't know they are a sin, but you are not guilty of believing a heresy if you didn't know it was a heresy.

    Is that correct?


    No, you're also not guilty of a sin if you are unaware that it is sinful. Just like heresy, sin can be material as well.

    Quote from: Baltimore Catechism
    Q. 282. How many things are necessary to make a sin mortal?

    A. To make a sin mortal, three things are necessary: 1.a grievous matter, sufficient reflection, and full consent of the will.

    Q. 283. What do we mean by "grievous matter" with regard to sin?

    A. By "grievous matter" with regard to sin we mean that the thought, word or deed by which mortal sin is committed must be either very bad in itself or severely prohibited, and therefore sufficient to make a mortal sin if we deliberately yield to it.

    Q. 284. What does "sufficient reflection and full consent of the will" mean?

    A. "Sufficient reflection" means that we must know the thought, word or deed to be sinful at the time we are guilty of it; and "full consent of the will" means that we must fully and willfully yield to it.

    Q. 285. What are sins committed without reflection or consent called?

    A. Sins committed without reflection or consent are called material sins; that is, they would be formal or real sins if we knew their sinfulness at the time we committed them. Thus to eat flesh meat on a day of abstinence without knowing it to be a day of abstinence or without thinking of the prohibition, would be a material sin.


    Q. 286. Do past material sins become real sins as soon as we discover their sinfulness?

    A. Past material sins do not become real sins as soon as we discover their sinfulness, unless we again repeat them with full knowledge and consent.


    Again, it can be said that material sins are rare.


    Offline SJB

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #101 on: October 25, 2010, 08:16:58 AM »
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  • Quote
    formal heretic - knows that the belief they hold is heresy

    pertinacious heretic - a formal heretic who has been corrected by Church authority and yet refuses to submit and discontinue belief in the heresy


    Where did you get these definitions?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Matthew

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #102 on: October 25, 2010, 10:30:53 AM »
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  • Pertinacity: Material and Formal Heresy

    by John S. Daly


    What is Pertinacity?


    If a baptised person expresses an opinion in conflict with Catholic dogma, it is plain that the material element of heresy is present: error in the intellect contrary to the Catholic Faith. But of course it does not yet follow that the sin of heresy has been imputably committed, or that the person in question is in fact a heretic.

    From the position of Canon Law a single question must be asked: does the person realise that his opinion conflicts with Catholic teaching? If he does, he is canonically deemed to be a heretic. Canon 1325 defines a heretic as a baptised person, still calling himself a Christian, who “pertinaciously denies or doubts any of the truths which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith.” And the word “pertinaciously” is understood by canonists to mean that the person is conscious of the conflict between his opinion and the Church's teaching. (Cf. Noldin: Theologia Moralis, vol. II, n.29; de Siena: Commentarius Censurarum, p.24; Dom Gregory Sayers: Thesaurus Casuum Conscientiae III,iv,18; Suarez: Opera, XII, p.474, ed. Vivès; Bouscaren and Ellis: Canon Law, p.902)

    It is important to avoid a misunderstanding at this point. It is well known, that Canon law, like civil law, is concerned with externally ascertainable facts and their external effects. It is not directly involved with what takes place in the individual's soul, for until the internal act is externalised, it cannot be known with certainty. In technical terms, moral imputability is said to belong to the internal forum, known with certainty only to the individual and his Creator, and to the confessor in the sacrament of Penance. Canonical imputability and its effects belong to the external forum and are assessed in accordance with outward words and deeds, not with hidden interior dispositions. For this reason Canon Law provides that when a Catholic commits an external infraction of a law, he is presumed for legal purposes to have done so knowingly and culpably, unless and until he should prove the contrary (Canon 2200/2).

    Relying on this principle, some have imagined that when a heretical statement is made, it is presumed to have been pertinacious - i.e. that the person knew his statement to be heretical and made it nonetheless. This view is quite mistaken. Canon 2200/2 requires guilt (culpability) to be presumed whenever an infraction of the law takes place, but of course it does not authorise the presumption of the infraction itself. One must first know that the law has indeed been broken, at least externally, before Canon 2200/2 can have any application.

    And as the Canon Lawyers understand it, this pertinacity, this consciousness that one's opinion is in conflict with Catholic teaching, is essential to the canonical delict of heresy. Canon 2200/2 does not entitle anyone to presume it. If an individual makes a heretical statement, we have already said that we must find out whether he is aware that his opinion conflicts with the Faith. We may now add that we must establish the answer to this question without any help from Canon 2200/2 and its presumption of guilt in the external forum. Otherwise we should be presuming not just imputability, but the crime itself, which would be plainly contrary to justice.

    To clarify this point, let us state it in slightly different words. A heretic is a baptised Christian who does not accept the Catholic rule of faith, i.e. who rejects the Church's authority in forming his religious beliefs. Whenever anyone rejects the Church's rule of faith, he is canonically presumed to do so culpably. But the mere denial of a dogma does not always establish that the Catholic rule of faith is being rejected. Perhaps the miscreant does not realise that his stated opinion is contrary to the Faith. To clarify that question, Canon 2200/2 offers no help. It cannot be legitimately applied to settling, even presumptively, that question.

    So how can the individual's awareness that his view is unorthodox be established? There are in fact several ways. He may say so in as many words, or unmistakably imply that he is departing from Catholic belief. Alternatively, it may be evident from his status and education, and the particular dogma he rejects, that he cannot be unaware of the facts. Otherwise, it is open to anyone to draw to his attention the Catholic teaching which conflicts with his stated opinion, to give him the opportunity of correcting his position. Once the Catholic doctrine is sufficiently made known to him, persistence in denying or doubting it establishes pertinacity and therefore the canonical delict of heresy.

    All this seems clear and simple enough. If misunderstandings and conflicting interpretations have arisen, it is chiefly because the Church's laws on this topic, and the classic theological texts dealing with it, consider heresy as the act of a person who has once been a Catholic and has recognised the Church's divine authority to teach. Such a person, of course, if he consciously departs from that teaching, is inevitably guilty in the eyes of God of a mortal sin against the virtue of faith. (Denzinger 1794 and 1815)

    The Relevance of Good Faith

    But of course there are baptised persons who consider themselves Christians and yet have never recognised the authority of the Catholic Church. Some of them have never been presented with any reason for submitting to the Catholic Magisterium as the divinely established rule of faith. Some have barely heard of God's Church. Thus there exist baptised non-Catholics who think themselves to be disciples of Jesus Christ, yet are separated from His Church by invincible ignorance of what it is. And these persons all fall within the canonists' definition of heretics, for they openly reject what they know the Catholic Church teaches - and why should they do otherwise as they know of no reason to accept it?

    At this point the moral theologian parts company with the canonist. Heresy, he argues, is per se a sin; the sin of rejecting a truth revealed by God. But Protestants in good faith who reject Catholic teaching are guilty of no sin by so doing because they do not realise that these truths have been revealed by God. And if they have not culpably committed the sin of heresy, by what right can one label them heretics?

    Quite rightly the canonist replies that all such individuals are presumed guilty in the external forum by virtue of Canon 2200/2 as they have committed an external infraction of the law requiring assent to any Catholic dogma (Canon 1323/1). Their moral guilt in the internal forum the canonists will leave to moralists to theorise about and to confessors to assess when necessary. Their own task is simply to evaluate the external fact that a given baptised person publicly rejects the Catholic rule of faith, and as such is deemed for all practical purposes to be excommunicated and outside the Church.

    Here some individuals have become confused between the external, canonical facts, and the internal moral ones. By reference to some of the classic theological writers, they argue that “pertinacity” is the element that makes heresy culpable, an imputable sin. And they rightly observe that Protestants who are in good faith are not culpable or guilty of imputable sin for their rejection of Catholic doctrine. Therefore, it has been argued, pertinacity is wanting to the case. And since this pertinacity is admitted by canonists themselves to be essential to the material act of heresy, it certainly cannot justly be presumed. That would be presuming the fact of the crime itself, not just its guilt. Moreover, it is argued, since pertinacity implies moral guilt in the rejection of Catholic doctrine, if Protestants in good faith are to be canonically presumed pertinacious and excommunicated, the same must apply to Catholics who by an innocent mistake advance an opinion which they do not realise to be in conflict with a dogma. Thus Catholics who pronounce on theology with insufficient knowledge would be forever incurring excommunication in the external forum by virtue of presumed pertinacity.

    What terrible confusion! And it has been only aggravated by canonists who have tried to reply without spotting the root of the disagreement, for they have sometimes conceded the last point of their adversaries, allowing Canon 2200/2 to apply to the mere outward statement of a position which the Church rejects. Thus they admit that one may presume an individual to be in conflict with the Church, even though he is a good sound Catholic and merely guilty of a mistaken formulation. And they concede this because they see no other way of defending what they know to be true - namely that Protestants, no matter if they be in invincible ignorance, are presumed excommunicated and deemed to be outside the Church's external communion.

    Two Distinct Senses of the Word Pertinacious

    The nub of the problem - we say it again - is that the word pertinacity has been differently used by different writers. Each use is defensible, and the distinction is largely an accident of history. But now that it exists, it is crucial not to apply to this term in one sense statements made about its other sense.

    The canonists have defined pertinacity as recognition or awareness of the conflict between one's belief and that of the Church. As such, pertinacity is essential to the canonical delict of heresy; it is part of the matter or (technically) corpus delicti of heresy. Hence it must be proved before anyone can be considered a heretic, and Canon 2200/2 with its presumption of culpability does not help to prove it, for it applies only when the law is already externally infringed. And if Catholic doctrine is inadvertently denied by one who does not notice his error, there is not even an external infraction of the law requiring orthodox belief.

    Moralists, on the other hand, consider pertinacity as the formal constituent of the sin of heresy - the disordered state of the will in adhering to a belief opposed to the Faith. As such, pertinacity never exists except where the heretical belief is imputably sinful. And for that, not one, but two things are necessary. First the doctrinal authority of the Church must be sufficiently proposed to the individual concerned. Secondly the specific teaching of the Church which conflicts with his error must be sufficiently proposed to him. In other words, according to the definition, pertinacity entails awareness of two distinct truths: not just that the Church rejects the opinion advanced, but also that the Church is the divinely-appointed custodian of God's revelation to men.

    There is no doubt that the definition of the moralists is the older one. If the ancient authorities (St Augustine: Contra Manichaeos, De Civ. Dei,l . XVIII, c. 51, n. 1; St Thomas Aquinas: Summa Theologiae, II-II, q. 11, a. 2; Cajetan, ad locuм; St Alphonsus Liguori: Summa Theologiae Moralis, l. 3, n. 19), who used the word “pertinacity” for the perverse will of one who sinfully rejects a part of the Catholic Faith, do not advert explicitly to the two conditions mentioned above as necessary to make a heretical statement pertinacious, it is because they were writing of erstwhile Catholics who fell into heresy. And one who has once been a Catholic is necessarily aware of the Church's teaching authority. He may have failed to advert to the conflict between his stated opinion and a given teaching of the Church, but he cannot be invincibly ignorant that his opinions ought to be in conformity with Catholic teaching. So it is not surprising to see some writers define pertinacity as the formal element of the sin of heresy, the perverse state of will, while mentioning only one necessary condition for this: awareness of the Catholic teaching with which one's stated belief conflicts. With regard to Catholics and former Catholics, that is exact. With regard to persons baptised outside the Church, and perhaps invincibly ignorant of her teaching authority, however, it is an over-simplification due to factors we have already noted.

    Could it be argued that the canonists' use of the term “pertinacity”, with a slightly different meaning from that of the classic theological usage, is responsible for the confusion? Doubtless the canonists would say that they needed a word for the deliberate decision to hold a belief contrary to that of the Church and that pertinacity was chosen as being the classic term, so defined by many of the theologians who gave it its currency. Hence any confusion is due rather to the fact that theologians had made two statements about pertinacity (viz. 1. That is consists in awareness of the conflict between one's opinion and Catholic doctrine, and 2. That it is the formal constituent of the imputable sin of heresy) of which, with reference to Catholics who fall into heresy, both are true, but with reference to baptised persons who are invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith, both of which cannot be true. In other words the confusion is due to the historical accident that theologians equated two concepts which, in the cases they were considering, invariably coincided, but which in a distinct category of cases, to which they did not advert, do not necessarily coincide.

    At any event, further confusion can be avoided by bearing constantly in mind that all canonists are agreed as to what “pertinaciously” means as this word is used in the current text of Canon 1325/2. It means that the miscreant is aware of the conflict between his belief and Catholic doctrine, and is therefore synonymous with knowingly.

    Thus a baptised person raised in invincible ignorance of the Catholic Church is nevertheless a pertinacious heretic in the sense of Canon 1325/2. In the eyes of God he is not morally guilty, but owing to his external infraction of the law requiring all the baptised to accept Catholic doctrine, he is presumed in the external forum (by Canon 2200/2) to be culpable and to have incurred excommunication. He certainly does not belong to the institutional Church.

    If theologians continue to use the word “pertinacity” to designate the perverse state of the will which makes the profession of a heretical statement an imputable sin, they must recognise that their usage, insofar as it applies to non-Catholics who are or may be invincibly ignorant of the Church's divine authority, does not coincide with canonical usage.

    On the other hand, to admit a possibility which canonists would apparently be very reluctant to accept, theologians might wish to argue that Canon 1325/2 has been misunderstood and that the pertinacity it requires for heresy is moral guilt. According to this understanding a Protestant in good faith is not, canonically speaking, a heretic, as he is not morally guilty. As he is certainly deemed by the Church in the external forum to be excommunicated, this must be attributed to a presumption of law - namely that Canon 2200/2 does authorise the presumption of pertinacity. But as this presumption clearly does not apply to Catholics who inadvertently advance an unorthodox proposition, some distinction must be found whereby Canon 2200/2 allows the presumption of pertinacity on the part of invincibly ignorant non-Catholics, but not on the part of Catholics who mistakenly make heretical statements while retaining orthodox interior dispositions. And as the Code lends no support to such a distinction, it is clear why the canonists have unanimously rejected any attempt to construe the Code in this way.

    Agreement as to Facts: Disagreement as to Their Expression

    The confusion and disagreement we have referred to must not be allowed to cloud the perfect agreement which subsists among all approved theological and canonical authors as to the relevant facts, irrespective of how the current Code of Canon Law is to be understood as stating them. This agreement is best shown by summarising the correct doctrine without using any of the vocabulary which has shown itself liable to ambiguity, and this we think can be done as follows:

    Every Catholic must accept the Catholic rule of faith, by believing whatever the Church teaches that God has revealed. Any statement made by a baptised individual which reveals that he does not accept the Catholic rule of faith and knowingly rejects some part of the divine revelation which the Church proposes for our belief, proves that he is not a Catholic, but a heretic, and deemed to have incurred excommunication.

    By contrast an unorthodox statement which may have been due to mere inadvertence proves nothing of the sort. One who makes such a statement is not proved to be a heretic until the Catholic doctrine is sufficiently drawn to his attention and he remains obstinate in his position.

    The baptised individual who is truly shown to reject the Catholic rule of faith will be guilty of sin if the Church's authority has been sufficiently proposed to him - which will always apply to one who has previously been a Catholic, but will not apply to non-Catholics if they are invincibly ignorant - but not otherwise. But whether or not he is guilty of sin, his rejection of the Catholic rule of faith attests that, for all external purposes, he must be deemed an excommunicated heretic, not a Catholic.

    True Rôle of Canon 2200/2 and its Presumption of Malice

    Having established these facts, we may now note the true function of Canon 2200/2 in relation to the delict of heresy. This canon rules that when a law is outwardly infringed, the infraction is presumed culpable for the purposes of the external forum. Should a Catholic make an unorthodox statement, it does not entitle anyone to presume for any purpose that his unorthodoxy was deliberate if that is not already evident. But once established that the unorthodoxy was conscious, Canon 2200/2 does require the presumption that the departure from orthodoxy was not merely simulated, due to fear or mental derangement. And with regard to non-Catholics, Canon 2200/2 provides that they are for practical purposes deemed to be culpable for their heterodoxy and therefore excommunicated - a legal presumption which in no way alters the fact that they may be invincibly ignorant of the Church's authority, and therefore, in the internal forum, guiltless. Either way the Church, as a visible institution juridically able to recognise her members, cannot consider such people to be Catholics.

    Material and Formal - More Ambiguity

    The preceding discussion leads logically to consideration of the analogous ambiguity, relevant to the same topic, which has perhaps been the source of even more serious confusion than the word “pertinacious”; namely, the distinction between material and formal heresy.

    Every material object exists by virtue of the union of two elements - the stuff it is made of (matter) and the shape the stuff is made in (form). Thus a wine-glass is made out of glass - its matter; but that alone is not sufficient to make it a vessel suitable for drinking wine from; it also needs its form - the shape of a wine-glass.

    Scholastic philosophy has taken the distinction of the two constituent elements of natural objects, and applied it, by extension or analogy, to other entities. Its best known theological application is to sin. Each sin is said to consist of its matter (the physical act) and its form (the disordered act of the will). And this application is very useful because it facilitates recognition of the cases in which the matter of the sin is not accompanied by its form. Thus a man who shoots his neighbour has performed the physical act proper to the sin of murder. But if he had blamelessly mistaken his neighbour for a wild animal, his intention was not disorderly. The matter of the sin was present, but not its form. We have come to say that such a man has sinned materially, but not formally. But what that really means is that he is not guilty of sin at all, for in the absence of the formal element, no entity can exist. A material sin is not really, or fully, a sin, any more than a pane of glass is a drinking vessel until it is moulded to the shape of one.

    Application of these Terms to Heresy

    With regard to the sin of heresy, it was said that the matter was the intellectual error involved in assenting to a heterodox proposition, while the form was the obstinate attachment of the will. And once again this distinction usefully clarified the fact that one who assents to a heterodox proposition by inadvertence, without obstinate attachment of the will, was not guilty of the sin of heresy.

    What muddied the waters was the misleading linguistic development by which material heresy was said to make the person professing it a material heretic. No conclusion could seem more natural to the layman, but it does not in fact follow in logic. A retired lion-trainer is not, after all, a man who trains retired lions! And a serious problem arises when one designates as a material heretic anyone who assents, without moral guilt, to a heretical proposition. The first is that you have created a category which comprises two quite distinct sorts of member and you therefore run the risk of confusing the two. For according to that definition, a good Catholic who inadvertently holds a condemned doctrine, not realising that it is condemned is a material heretic. And so too is a Protestant if he is invincibly ignorant of the Church's status. And while it is true that there is a resemblance between the two cases (for both indeed hold in their minds unorthodox doctrine and neither is culpable in the eyes of God for doing so), nevertheless there is also a huge gulf between them. For the former is a Catholic, habitually adhering to the Catholic rule of faith, whereas the latter is a non-Catholic, with no knowledge of the correct rule of faith and tossed about on the treacherous sea of private opinion.

    The inevitable consequence of this misleading assimilation of two such different sorts of person is that they will gradually come to be considered truly alike. This could happen in either of two ways. Mistaken Catholics could be regarded as no better than Protestants in good faith (and some “hard-liners” have practically taken this view, arguing that the most innocent error creates a presumption of heretical animus - a notion we have already seen to be false). More common has been the no less calamitous view that a Protestant, if invincibly ignorant of the status of the Church, is no worse off than a Catholic who inadvertently makes an incorrect doctrinal statement - as though adherence to the Catholic rule of faith, i.e. submission to the Magisterium, were irrelevant, whereas in fact it is what juridical membership of the Church depends on.

    Correctly, the material element involved in being a heretic is conscious dissent from the Catholic rule of faith, while the formal element is the perverse state of the will which this entails. The distinction thus made, a Catholic who inculpably advances a heretical proposition by inadvertence may perhaps be said to have advanced a material heresy; but he cannot be called a material heretic. He is not a heretic in any sense. A heretic is one who dissents altogether from the Catholic rule of faith, and he will be called a material heretic if he is invincibly ignorant of the authority of the Church which he rejects, and a formal heretic if the Church's authority has been sufficiently proposed to him, so that his dissent from it is culpable. (This is clearly explained by Cardinal Billot: De Ecclesia Christi, ed. 4, pp. 289-290)


    So according to the correct usage of the term, as outlined above, a Catholic can never become a material heretic. He is not invincibly ignorant of the Church's authority, and any conscious dissent from her teachings will therefore make him a formal heretic. Material heretics are exclusively those baptised non-Catholics who err in good faith. That is why Dr Ludwig Ott notes that “public heretics, even those who err in good faith (material heretics), do not belong to the body of the Church, that is to the legal commonwealth of the Church. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p.311)

    And in fact Dr Ott's preferred expression - “heretics who err in good faith” is the one used in the Code of Canon Law (Canon 731), which completely eschews the potentially misleading term “material heretics”

    Effects of Heresy

    Before closing this discussion of the nature of heresy, some mention should perhaps be made of its effects.

    Canon 1325 brands as a heretic whoever, while still calling himself a Christian, pertinaciously (i.e. consciously) doubts or denies any de fide truth. Anyone to whom this applies is deemed not to be a Catholic if he manifests externally his heresy. (If it is purely internal, he has committed a mortal sin against the virtue of faith, but remains within the Church's communion, and without censure. - Cardinal Billot, op. Cit. pp. 295 et seq.)

    All heretics incur automatic excommunication by virtue of Canon 2314. This must be carefully distinguished from their expulsion from the Church - one may be excommunicated and yet remain a member of the Church, or one may be outside the Church but nevertheless not excommunicated, as in the case of baptised children raised in heresy, between the age of reason (about seven) and the age of fourteen, before which it is not possible to incur excommunication.

    One who commits heresy through ignorance of the duty to believe all that the Church teaches, will not incur the excommunication unless his ignorance was “affected” - i.e. deliberately sought (Canon 2229). But in the external forum he will be deemed excommunicated until he prove the contrary. (In practice, converts who claim, on grounds of ignorance, not to have incurred excommunication are usually absolved conditionally to avoid a complicated judicial procedure to assess their claim.)

    Heretical clerics, like laymen, incur excommunication; and infamy if they publicly join a sect. Unlike laymen, they are also to be deprived of any benefice, dignity, pension or office in the Church unless they repent on being admonished; and if a second admonition proves fruitless, they are to be deposed. In fact, if their heresy is public, their offices are forfeited automatically without any admonition (Canon 188/4). And if the heretical cleric not only doubts or denies a dogma, but publicly joins a heretical sect, he will not only lose his office ipso facto and incur infamy; he will also, should admonition fail to amend him, be degraded. (Canon 2314)


    John S. Daly
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    Offline Matthew

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #103 on: October 25, 2010, 10:31:45 AM »
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  • Pay special attention to this part of the above post:

    Canon 1325 brands as a heretic whoever, while still calling himself a Christian, pertinaciously (i.e. consciously) doubts or denies any de fide truth. Anyone to whom this applies is deemed not to be a Catholic if he manifests externally his heresy. (If it is purely internal, he has committed a mortal sin against the virtue of faith, but remains within the Church's communion, and without censure. - Cardinal Billot, op. Cit. pp. 295 et seq.)

    All heretics incur automatic excommunication by virtue of Canon 2314. This must be carefully distinguished from their expulsion from the Church - one may be excommunicated and yet remain a member of the Church, or one may be outside the Church but nevertheless not excommunicated, as in the case of baptised children raised in heresy, between the age of reason (about seven) and the age of fourteen, before which it is not possible to incur excommunication.

    One who commits heresy through ignorance of the duty to believe all that the Church teaches, will not incur the excommunication unless his ignorance was “affected” - i.e. deliberately sought (Canon 2229). But in the external forum he will be deemed excommunicated until he prove the contrary. (In practice, converts who claim, on grounds of ignorance, not to have incurred excommunication are usually absolved conditionally to avoid a complicated judicial procedure to assess their claim.)
    Want to say "thank you"? 
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    Offline Cheryl

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #104 on: October 25, 2010, 10:59:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    Quote from: Cheryl


    SJT, just how much is it worth to you not to go there again? :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1:


    I'll send you the "JPII" rosary my mother bought at the Vatican when she went four years ago, and had blessed by Benedict XVI! (Blessed from 300 yards away, of course.)


    SJT, I would have taken you up on your offer, but someone had to go and start the BOD/BOB discussion all over again!  I had big plans for that rosary!  I was going to take it over to St. Paul's in Grosse Pointe Farms (built in 1829 or 39), where all the rich Grosse Pointers go (not too far from the Yacht Club) and I was going to stand around after they had their protestant service and sell it to the one willing to cough of the most cash.  Most of these people have more money than they know what to do with.  That's even after they pay their mortgages  for their houses on lake St. Claire and their hired help!   :kick-can: