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Author Topic: The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????  (Read 21629 times)

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Offline CathMomof7

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The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
« on: October 20, 2010, 04:48:13 PM »
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  • I have never really posted anything here controversial or really worthy of great intellectual discussion.  I'm fairly new around here and still trying to get my feet wet.  But I did find something today that I would really like to talk about or at least clarify.

    I scour around the various sites on the internet and a comment about an article in a Protestant magazine caught my attention.  So I went to the site where I could read the article for myself.

    Now, I am aware that this magazine is Protestant.  I know their point is to suggest that the Catholic Church and the Pope are liars.  But doesn't it seem interesting that Catholics inside the Church are ignorant of the Pope's theological positions while some Protestants are quick to point them out?

    I've know for awhile the philosophical leanings of this Pope but some of his statements seem quite heretical in and of themselves.  

    (Pages referenced are from Introduction to Christianity)
    Quote
    His definition is both strange and ambiguous. “Resurrection”, he writes, “expresses the idea that the immortality of man can exist and be thought of only in the fellowship of men” (p 172). The doctrine, he claims, creates a “curious dilemma” (p 238) because modern liberal theologians no longer believe that body and soul can be identified as separate entities, something that Ratzinger dismisses, together with the immortality of the soul, as a Greek notion which has “become obsolete” (p 241).


    Quote
    Ratzinger’s book, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, covers, amongst other things, the nature of the resurrection. He notes that the accepted view among modern Roman Catholic and liberal Protestant theologians is that body
    and soul expire at the point of death and that “the proper Christian thing, therefore, is to speak, not of the soul’s immortality, but of the resurrection of the complete human being and of that alone” (p 105). He notes that the word soul has disappeared from Roman Catholic liturgy (also from Roman Catholic Bible translations) as a consequence. Ratzinger offers his own new definition of the soul: “The ‘soul’ is our term for that in us which offers a foothold for this relation [with the eternal]. Soul is nothing other than man’s
    capacity for relatedness with truth, with love eternal” (p 259). The soul is therefore defined heretically as the capacity for relationship rather than real spiritual substance; having a soul means “being God’s partner in dialogue”.10


    Quote
    In Introduction to Christianity, Ratzinger explicitly denies the resurrection of the body. “It now becomes clear that the real heart of faith in the resurrection does not consist at all in the idea of the restoration of bodies, to which we have reduced it in our thinking; such is the case even though this is the pictorial image used throughout the Bible”. He says that the word body, or flesh, in the phrase, the resurrection of the body, “in effect means ‘the world of man’ . . . [it is] not meant in the sense of a corporality isolated from the soul” (pp 240-41).


    Quote
    He draws the conclusion that “one thing at any rate may be fairly clear: both John (6:63) and Paul (1 Cor 15:50) state with all possible emphasis that the ‘resurrection of the flesh’, the ‘resurrection of the body’, is not a ‘resurrection
    of physical bodies’. . . . Paul teaches, not the resurrection of physical bodies, but the resurrection of persons, and this not in the return of ‘flesh body’, that is, the biological structure, an idea he expressly describes as impossible (‘the perishable cannot become imperishable’) but in the different form of the life of the resurrection, as shown in the risen Lord” (p 246).


    Quote
    He says that “their essential content   is not the conception of a restoration of bodies to souls after a long interval; their aim is to tell men that they, they themselves, live on . . . because they are known and loved by God in a way that they can no longer perish . . . the essential part of man, the person, remains . . . it goes on existing because it
    lives in God’s memory” (p 243).


    The author of the article goes on to conclude after his analysis that
    Quote
    It is alarming to think of the extent of the heresies held by those who have authority within the bounds of Rome if Ratzinger is to be considered conservative.


    Is this just Protestants attacking the Church or is there some merit to this?  I have read none of the current Pope's writings.  I do know that in his youth he was heavily influenced by Hans Kung and Karl Rahner and the ideas of phenomenology.  

    Do you think he still believes in these ideas? Or do you believe he has had a change of ideology?  What does this say about the current state of affairs in the Church?


    Quotes are from an article titled Does the Pope Believe in the Resurrection? by Matthew Vogan from the September 10 issue of Free Presbyterian Magazine




    Offline Telesphorus

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #1 on: October 20, 2010, 05:13:12 PM »
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  • "not bodies" but "persons"

    Definitely close to a direct denial.  

    Paul wasn't speaking of just a "pictorial representation"

    They don't call them neo-modernists for nothing cathmom.




    Offline Telesphorus

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #2 on: October 20, 2010, 05:22:05 PM »
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  • Offline MyrnaM

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #3 on: October 20, 2010, 07:37:24 PM »
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  • I'll probably get banned for asking this question, but here goes.

    How can some still believe he is a true pope?
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #4 on: October 20, 2010, 07:52:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    I'll probably get banned for asking this question, but here goes.

    How can some still believe he is a true pope?


    I don't think you'll get banned for that question. So why do I think he's true Pope? Well, as I said a few days ago, there are Popes and there are anti-popes, no in-between. This could have been stuff that he wrote or said before he even became Pope. I still don't think he meets enough criteria to be named anti-pope. Is he a Traditional Pope? No. Is he what I would call a good Pope? No. However, I don't think he's an anti-pope.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #5 on: October 20, 2010, 10:37:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus


    Is he a Traditional Pope? No.



    Anyone who is an enemy of the Traditions of the Catholic Faith is an enemy of the Catholic Church.

    An enemy of the Catholic Church can't be a Catholic.

    A non-Catholic can't be a pope.

    Offline CathMomof7

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #6 on: October 21, 2010, 10:18:34 AM »
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  • I am not prepared to claim that there is no Pope or that the current pontiff is not Catholic.  I did find this information, however, useful.

    A pope who, while not being guilty of formal heresy in the strict sense, has allowed heresy to undermine the Church through compromise, weakness, ambiguous or even gravely imprudent teaching remains Pope, but can be judged by his successors, and condemned as was the case with Honorius I.

    I am totally aware that the Church has been under attack from within since the beginning.  But did Our Lord not promise us that it could never be destroyed and that we would never lose the Church?  

    Is this not a time similar to St. Anthanasius's time where the hierarchy was led by heretical influences?  

    Wouldn't this be the case now?  At some point won't some authoritative council have to say  "That is heresy." or will we just go back to things before VII?

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #7 on: October 21, 2010, 10:25:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus


    Is he a Traditional Pope? No.



    Anyone who is an enemy of the Traditions of the Catholic Faith is an enemy of the Catholic Church.

    An enemy of the Catholic Church can't be a Catholic.

    A non-Catholic can't be a pope.


    I wouldn't exactly say he's an enemy of Tradition. Ever since he became Pope I think he has slowly began to realize he went a little too far to the modernist side. Although, he's still on that side and needs to get off.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #8 on: October 21, 2010, 10:50:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: CathMomof7


    A pope who, while not being guilty of formal heresy in the strict sense, has allowed heresy to undermine the Church through compromise, weakness, ambiguous or even gravely imprudent teaching remains Pope, but can be judged by his successors, and condemned as was the case with Honorius I.



    Honorius was not judged by his successors, and condemned as a heretic.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #9 on: October 21, 2010, 10:54:33 AM »
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  • Quote from: CathMomof7


     But did Our Lord not promise us that it could never be destroyed and that we would never lose the Church?  



    Sure. But if there is no pope for a period, that does not mean the Church is destroyed.

    The pope is not the Church.


    Offline wallflower

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #10 on: October 21, 2010, 11:03:07 AM »
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  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: CathMomof7


     But did Our Lord not promise us that it could never be destroyed and that we would never lose the Church?  



    Sure. But if there is no pope for a period, that does not mean the Church is destroyed.

    The pope is not the Church.



    By that same token, we can have a bad Pope for a period and it does not mean the Church is destroyed.

    Cathmom, I don't think it would be enough to just go back to things before Vatican 2 because things weren't so peachy then either. Most people had already, consciously or not, adopted heresy they just weren't fully acting on it yet on such a large scale. I think we will have to have a full blown condemnation, weeding and renewal. A real one, not a V2 one.


    Offline TKGS

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #11 on: October 21, 2010, 11:07:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: CathMomof7
    I am not prepared to claim that there is no Pope or that the current pontiff is not Catholic.  I did find this information, however, useful.

    A pope who, while not being guilty of formal heresy in the strict sense, has allowed heresy to undermine the Church through compromise, weakness, ambiguous or even gravely imprudent teaching remains Pope, but can be judged by his successors, and condemned as was the case with Honorius I.


    And this would be useful if Benedict XVI were merely "allowing heresy to undermine the Church".  The quotes above, and I have read them before, are his own words and his own teaching prior to his election.  This is heresy as any first grade child who has been taught the Catechism could tell you.  He has not renounced the heresy and, in fact, this heretical book was republished after his election.  

    I don't know if there is a "hidden pope" out there.  (I suspect not.)  I don't know if there can be a "material" pope as opposed to a "formal" pope as there is material and formal heresy.  I don't know how the Crisis will be resolved.  I only know that I am convinced that Benedict XVI cannot be the pope of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #12 on: October 21, 2010, 11:08:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: wallflower


    By that same token, we can have a bad Pope for a period and it does not mean the Church is destroyed.




    Sure.

    But if a "bad" "pope" is a heretic; he is not a Catholic, let alone a pope.

    But still the Church is not destroyed.

    Offline Leisa

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #13 on: October 21, 2010, 12:22:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    I'll probably get banned for asking this question, but here goes.

    How can some still believe he is a true pope?



    Exactly my question.  I think all Catholics need to climb out of the co-dependent relationship and see it for what it is. Benedict is an abuser of Catholics (not to mention children).

    His refusal to ever, turn known pedophiles over to police athorities, is just one more example of where this man's allegiances are.   Hmm, how long has pedophelia been a part of the Catholic church?    

    It's interesting.  He is a brazen heretic and Catholics don't seem to notice or care.  Then his involvement in the pedophile coverups comes out in the mainstream media.  Catholics are still going to Mass.  

    This shows me that Catholics who follow Benedict XVI will follow him no matter what.  It seems that there is no heresy too great, no child that is so important, that they will back away from him.

    Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

    I believe it is a testimony to the power of the devil.  When people stopped believing in evil, that is when evil really gets a foothold.  It's so easy for the devil now. Thanks to Benedict and all the other anti-popes who have paved the highway to hell.  Hey, the devil doesn't really exist, so we don't need the exorcism rites anymore.

    That should have been a major clue for people right there.  Don't we need the rite of exorcism?  Why are they trashing it?

    So many clues.  It's a wonder people are not getting it.


    Offline Alexandria

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    The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body????
    « Reply #14 on: October 21, 2010, 12:25:07 PM »
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  • Quote
    I only know that I am convinced that Benedict XVI cannot be the pope of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.



    If there is anyone here on CathInfo that can convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt of the same, I will be eternally grateful.   :pop: