You misunderstand me though I am not sure whether you do so intentionally or just refuse to actually read what I wrote. I did not, nor do I, suggest that "invincible ignorance" will save these people. They will be condemned for their sins, for their unbelief, and for their lack of Sanctifying Grace. Invincible ignorance does not save.
I am merely pointing out that true ignorance of doctrine does not cut the bonds of unity and an individual who is ignorant of a particular doctrine but will, nevertheless, submit to the true doctrine if and when he becomes aware of it, is still a Catholic.
Being a member of the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation--this is dogma. But membership itself does not save. The sole question here is, "Just who is a member of the Catholic Church?" Knowledge of each and every doctrine of the Catholic Church is not necessary to be a member, if it did, then little children who have not been taught the Catechism would be classified as heretics. If your parents or priest mistakenly teach you a heresy (such as, for instance, that the souls of aborted babies go to heaven), you may still be a member of the Catholic Church until such time as you learn the True doctrine. Only if you stubornly cling to the heresy do the bonds of unity break and you become an heretic.
Invincible ignorance is not an heresy. It is a mere statement of fact. What is heretical is the application many Modernists make of the fact, suggesting that invincible ignorance can lead to eternal Life.
Hi, I underlined the parts of your post that I would call into question. A heretic is not inside the church. Correct? You said "true ignorance of doctrine does not cut the bonds of unity.."
However ignorance of the faith is not an excuse. I say that ignorance does put one outside of the Catholic faith. I cannot be a member of something if I don't know what membership is?
If one is attending an invalid and heretical church then how is one to assume that they have the true Catholic faith? Not to mention the fact that it is a sin to attend a heretical Mass.
(Little children have not reached the age of reason.)
If I am misinterpreting you then please inform me.
MaterDominici is correct, one must be "pertinacious in your heresy to be automatically excommunicated". If you are ignorant, say, of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception and while discussing the life of the Blessed Virgin you make a comment suggesting her redemption from original sin, you are wrong on a fact and have uttered a heresy, but you are still a member of the Catholic Church. Your friend corrects you and explains the doctrine. You don't believe your friend and go on believing that Mary was conceived with original sin. However, you begin checking Catholic religious books and you talk with your priest and discover the truth of the matter. You are a heretic if you decide that the Church is wrong and logic dictates to you that Mary
must have been conceived with original sin and you go on believing that false doctrine. On the other hand, if you docilely submit to the true doctrine and take it as your own belief, you never were a heretic and thus never cut the bonds of unity with the Church by heresy--you were simply mistaken.
It is a major point here that is important to grasp. The average
Novus Ordo Catholic may be wrong about many things and not be a heretic, though it is not as many as one might think. Most of them, at least in the United States, I think, and probably in many Western nations, hold to heresy because one priest told them something that they
knew to be wrong but cling to the notion even though they know that it is not what the Church teaches.
A good example of this is in the area of contraception. There are indeed Catholics who know that the Church teaches that articificial means of contraception are wrong in every case but decide that they are going to employ such methods anyway fully aware that they are committing mortal sin. These Catholics are not heretics though they are cut-off from heaven due to mortal sin unless and until they stop their sin and make a good confession; furthermore, they know this is the case. On the other hand, there are also a great many more Catholics who tenaciously insist that the issue is much more complex and that in his or her own situation, contraception is actually permitted by the Church because one priest many years ago said so. In spite of the fact that the truth is known, the sin continues and, and this is the key point, the sinner pertinaciously refuses to accept that the Church condemns the practice and stubbornly insists that the Church is wrong or that the Church really doesn't teach such a doctrine.
There are many doctrinal issues that fit this category and we see them in the many (usually) secular polls of Catholics when they ask, "Can you be a Catholic in good standing if you believe..." Then the polster gives any of a number of false doctrines that one cannot hold, in good conscience, knowing that they are heresies.
...that Christ didn't bodily rise from the dead?
...that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ conduct is morally good?
...that living together before marriage is acceptable?
...that a priest can consecrate a rice host to give for holy communion to a person with severe wheat allergies?
...that Mary had other children after Jesus?
...that the miracle of loaves and fishes was really just a story about sharing?
...that the Blessed Sacrament is merely symbolic?
Etc., etc., etc. What is particularly sad is that
Novus Ordo Catholics know what the true doctrines of the Church are on these and other matters because of the secular media pointing these doctrine out rather than the priests and bishops teaching the people. One can hardly fault a child for believing that the (conciliar) Mass is merely a re-enactment of the Last Supper and not, as even the conciliar Church teaches, a true sacrifice for sin (the fact that the
Novus Ordo is almost always invalid as currently celebrated notwithstanding). Only as the child matures and learns about what the Catholic Church truly teaches does the unbelief of the true doctrines manifest itself as the crime of heresy. And yes, heresy is a
crime. Never in Church history has a man been tried in Ecclesiastical courts for looking at a woman and feeling lust in his heart or deciding to sleep in on Sunday morning and not go to Mass; but many people have been tried in Ecclesiastical courts for heresy and, if found guilty, turned over to the secular government for punishment--the heresy having already excommunicated the criminal.
Since you quoted a bible verse to me, let me paraphrase one back to you (and you'll have to find it yourself because I don't know where it is other than in the Gospels). Jesus told the scribes and the Pharasees that if they were blind they would not have guilt but because they say they see, the guilt remains. In other words, if they had been truly ignorant of the Truth they would not have been guilty of anything, but because they did indeed know the Truth, they are guilty of rejecting Him. Invincible ignorance is not a heresy, it really does exist though it is not really as wide-spread as those who condemn it wish to believe. Most who remain ignorant of doctrine do so willfully, and, I believe, every priest, bishop, and theologian who utters heresy in his prepared sermons, pubishes heresy in books, or makes long and detailed heretical speeches does so with his eyes wide open. They know that what they say would have been condemned as heresy before the Council (many of them actually were) but the pertinaciously believe that the Church as changed her doctrine and no longer teaches outdated theology that was true at one time but is evolved or grown because modern humankind no longer needs such or wants them.
For some of the simple faithful, on the other hand, it may not always be a matter of pertinaciously holding heresy since many modern catechetical books actually do publish heresy--and even have an
imprimatur. There are many Catholics today in the
Novus Ordo "community" who are confused, especially when they run across older books and see that it says something completely different from what they were taught and can still read in the newer books. The ones who are truly Catholics are on the way to finding tradition and these are the ones who show up at your traditional chapel one day seeking Truth.
By the way, I wanted to send "Dawn" a pm about her posts as I didn't want to answer her on the forum as it was pointed out that this was derailing the topic; but she doesn't have a "pm" button. How come?
Topic: The Pope Doesnt believe in the Resurrection of the Body???? (Read 25434 times)