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Author Topic: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws  (Read 1519 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2023, 07:38:18 PM »
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  • Quite simply, ex cathedra describes the Infallible Extraordinary Magisterium.

    No it doesn't, and I cited the Pastor Aeternus above.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #31 on: June 05, 2023, 08:12:34 PM »
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  • Yes, unless it contradicts something of greater weight.

    Which is why talking about these non-infallible acts is pointless unless pne connects it with either the ordinary magisterium or automatic loss of office.

    Maybe the most authoritative ordinary form Holy Office act is the condemnation of Galileo but most who fawn over obedience to every papal speech and "approved theologian" pretend like the act doesn't exist.

    The most hypocritical of them all are those who consider the internal correspondence protocol 120/49 binding but aren't dogmatic geocentrists.

    Their ultimate source of authority is man, not the divinely instituted office and in that way they end up adopting Lefebvrite principles while outwardly opposing them.
    So heliocentrism is condemned?

    Also can I have a source for this "internal correspondence protocol 120/49"


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #32 on: June 05, 2023, 08:25:49 PM »
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  • Well, in more recent times we have a very clear rule of thumb.  If something appears in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, it's the intention of the Pope to act as Pope.  These aren't the Acta Jorge Bergoliensis, but Acts of the See itself.  Essentially it depends on the intention of the Pope to be acting in his capacity as Pope, vs., in this case, as Jorge Bergoglio.  In the past, there was some debate about inferring that intention, often due to the nature of a docuмent (Bull, Encyclical, etc.), but with the creation of AAS, any ambiguity is cleared up.

    Simply because the Pope is teaching non-infallibly, say, in an Encyclical letter, does not translate to him acting as a "Private Person".  He's clearly acting in his official capacity as Pope.

    That's actually all that the term ex cathedra actually means.  This term has been turned into a shorthand for when the Pope is acting infallibly, but that's not technically correct.  Acting ex cathedra is simply ONE of the notes of infallibility.

    Here's from Pastor Aeternus:
    That parenthetical "that is" actually defines the term Ex Cathedra, and private person is the opposite of Ex Cathedra, namely when he's NOT exercising his office as shepherd and teacher of all nations.  So even in a simple non-infallible Encyclical letter, he's still exercising his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, but not necessarily defining a doctrine of faith and morals ... etc. etc.

    In the past, things where the Pope might be writing a letter to an individual bishop, or giving a sermon, or opining privately (such as when Jorge is answering questions on his plane), those are acts generally construed as the Pope acting as a private theologian, since they're not addressed authoritatively to all Christians.  But, as I said, in recent days, the inclusion of something in AAS has served to remove all ambiguity and guessing regarding his intentions.
    Thanks for this reply, Ladislaus, I somehow missed it!
    But don't you see that you have misrepresented Pastor Aeternus by not quoting the words that follow from your bolded text which give it precisely the opposite meaning of what you are saying? Let's add a little more bold:
    when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church...


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #33 on: June 08, 2023, 11:26:30 AM »
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  • https://isidore.co/calibre#book_id=7428&library_id=CalibreLibrary&panel=book_details

    Here is the English translation:



    The argument assumes the "infallible Magisterium".  Of course no Catholic ought to have a problem with the argument.  However, this does not give us the conditions required for the "infallible Magisterium" to be engaged so that a particular disciplinary law is understood to be infallible.  We only know for certain the conditions required for infallibility in Faith and Morals.