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Author Topic: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws  (Read 1900 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2023, 12:04:12 PM »
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  • Yes, unless it contradicts something of greater weight.

    Msgr. Fenton had the best, most articulate, and most balanced explanation of this and the definition of what internal assent means on his treatment regarding the authority of Encyclicals.  I'll try to pull the relevant passages, but here's a link to his longer article.

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/docauthority.htm

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #16 on: June 05, 2023, 12:08:47 PM »
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  • Msgr. Fenton had the best, most articulate, and most balanced explanation of this and the definition of what internal assent means on his treatment regarding the authority of Encyclicals.  I'll try to pull the relevant passages, but here's a link to his longer article.

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/docauthority.htm

    So in other words, if, say, Pope St. Pius X were to write a letter endorsing the writings of Cardinal Newman, and entered it into the AAS, it would not be permissible to dismiss it on the pretext that he didn't know what he was talking about (or any other pretext)?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #17 on: June 05, 2023, 12:15:48 PM »
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  • Yes

    Then here you go: Rome has spoken; the case is closed.

    from Acta Sanctae Sedis,  vol. 41, 1908

    https://newmanreader.org/canonization/popes/acta10mar08.html
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #18 on: June 05, 2023, 12:19:33 PM »
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  • Then here you go: Rome has spoken; the case is closed.

    from Acta Sanctae Sedis,  vol. 41, 1908

    https://newmanreader.org/canonization/popes/acta10mar08.html

    :popcorn:
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #19 on: June 05, 2023, 12:21:11 PM »
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  • Lad-

    So, if something appears in the AAS, from an undisputedly legitimate Pope, are we required to assent to it?

    Yes ... but Msgr. Fenton carefully distinguishes what internal assent actually is.  Unfortunately, some SVs exaggerate the nature of internal assent to make it so that every teaching of the merely authentic Magisterium has to be regarded as effectively infallible, and there's no real distinction between the assent of faith and this internal assent demanded of matters taught with less authority.  On the other side, you have R&R who basically reduce those things that are not strictly infallible to being optional, claiming that the Magisterium can become substantially corrupt.
    Quote
    Hence it follows that the authority of the encyclicals is not at all the same as that of the solemn definition, the one properly so-called. The definition demands an assent without reservation and makes a formal act of faith obligatory. The case of the encyclical’s authority is not the same.

    This authority (of the papal encyclicals) is undoubtedly great. It is, in a sense, sovereign. It is the teaching of the supreme pastor and teacher of the Church. Hence the faithful have a strict obligation to receive this teaching with an infinite respect. A man must not be content simply not to contradict it openly and in a more or less scandalous fashion. An internal mental assent is demanded. It should be received as the teaching sovereignly authorized within the Church.

    Ultimately, however, this assent is not the same as the one demanded in the formal act of faith. Strictly speaking, it is possible that this teaching (proposed in the encyclical letter) is subject to error. There are a thousand reasons to believe that it is not. It has probably never been (erroneous), and it is normally certain that it will never be. But, absolutely speaking, it could be, because God does not guarantee it as He guarantees the teaching formulated by way of definition’.

    Lercher teaches that the internal assent due to these pronouncements cannot be called certain according to the strictest philosophical meaning of the term. The assent given to such propositions is interpretative condicionatus, including the tacit condition that the teaching is accepted as true “unless the Church should at some time peremptorially define otherwise or unless the decision should be discovered to be erroneous.”   Lyons and Phillips use the same approach in describing the assent Catholics are in conscience bound to give to the Church’s non-infallible teachings. Fr. Yves de la Brière speaks of the “submission and hierarchical obedience” due to these pronouncements.

    Msgr. Manzoni lists the encyclicals among the docuмents in which non-infallible teaching is to be found. He holds that the definition of which the Vatican Council speaks in proposing the doctrine of papal infallibility is to be found only in the exercise of the solemn, as distinguished from the ordinary magisterium. In explaining the binding force of these non-infallible pronouncements, he, like Bishop Francis Egger, and Fathers Mangenot, MacGuinness, and Dieckmann, employs an explanation formulated by Cardinal Franzelin in his Tractatus de divina traditione et scriptura.

    Franzelin holds that the Roman Pontiff can command all Catholics to assent to a given proposition (either directly or by condemning the contradictory statement), for either one of two different reasons. First the Holy Father can intend to define this proposition infallibly as true or as de fide. Again he can will merely to look after the security of Catholic doctrine. The magisterium of the Church has been equipped with help from God by reason of which the first sort of teaching gives infallible truth, while the second affords infallible security. Employing the plentitude of its power, the teaching Church operates as the auctoritas infallibilitatis. Working, not to define, but merely to take those steps it deems necessary to safeguard the faith, it is the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis. To this auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis and to the teachings it sets forth, the faithful owe the obedience of respectful silence and of an internal mental assent according to which the proposition thus presented is accepted, not as infallibly true, but as safe, as guaranteed by that authority which is divinely commissioned to care for the Christian faith.
    ...
    It might be definitely understood, however, that the Catholic’s duty to accept the teachings conveyed in the encyclicals even when the Holy Father does not propose such teachings as a part of his infallible magisterium is not based merely upon the dicta of the theologians. The authority which imposes this obligation is that of the Roman Pontiff himself. To the Holy Father’s responsibility of caring for the sheep of Christ’s fold, there corresponds, on the part of the Church’s membership, the basic obligation of following his directions, in doctrinal as well as disciplinary matters. In this field, God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth.
    ...
    It is, of course, possible that the Church might come to modify its stand on some detail of teaching presented as non-infallible matter in a papal encyclical. The nature of the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis within the Church is such, however, that this fallibility extends to questions of relatively minute detail or of particular application. The body of doctrine on the rights and duties of labor, on the Church and State, or on any other subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneous. The infallible security Christ wills that His disciples should enjoy within His Church is utterly incompatible with such a possibility.

    This articulation of the distinction between the assent of faith and internal assent finds a balance between the extremes of exaggerating and minimizing the requirement for internal assent.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #20 on: June 05, 2023, 12:26:53 PM »
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  • Then here you go: Rome has spoken; the case is closed.

    from Acta Sanctae Sedis,  vol. 41, 1908

    https://newmanreader.org/canonization/popes/acta10mar08.html

    Idiotic.  Read the explanation of internal assent I just posted from Msgr. Fenton.

    While SVs exaggerate the notion of internal assent as being tantamount to infallibility, you reduce it to the point where an Ecuмenical Council can teach error to the Church.  Your position is at once disingenuous and hypocritical.

    Despite the fact that you claim this is a contradiction (being oblivious to what internal assent means), it's the height of absurdity to claim that a letter to the Bishop of Limmerick is infallible but an Ecuмenical Council is not.

    So you go blundering and buffooning from one stupidity to another.

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #21 on: June 05, 2023, 12:30:44 PM »
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  • Try this one on for size:



    Quote
    Freedom is a right of every person: each individual enjoys the freedom of belief, thought, expression and action. The pluralism and the diversity of religions, color, sex, race and language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created human beings. This divine wisdom is the source from which the right to freedom of belief and the freedom to be different derives.



    Acta Apostolicae Sedis CXI, n. 3 (March 2019), pp. 349-356
    The heresy itself appears on p. 353, in Italian: “Il pluralismo e le diversità di religione, di colore, di sesso, di razza e di lingua sono una sapiente volontà divina, con la quale Dio ha creato gli esseri umani.”
    Although this edition of the Acta containing the apostate Docuмent on Human Fraternity was published in 2019, it was not until the last few days that it appeared as a freely accessible docuмent on the Vatican web site. A downloadable PDF version is available at this link (click image or click here):
    In his 1958 book The Catholic Church in Action, author Michael Williams explains that the Acta Apostolicae Sedis is the “only official publication of the Holy See … in which all official acts and laws in whatever form are promulgated” (p. 155). The journal was instituted by Pope St. Pius X in 1908 with the Apostolic Constitution Promulgandi.
    So, what significance does the inclusion of the Docuмent on Human Fraternity in the AAS have? What does it mean?
    At the very least, it means that Francis is officially acknowledging — for all those who may have doubted it — that the approval of the apostate declaration is an official “papal” act of his, not something merely said or done in his capacity as a private individual.
    In other words, Francis committed a blatant act of apostasy as the supposed head of the Roman Catholic Church and Vicar of Christ on earth. That is impossible for a true Pope to do. Although it cannot be proved, according to St. Robert Bellarmine, that a Pope is incapable of defecting from the Faith in his capacity as a private individual, it is absolutely impossible for a true Pope to commit heresy or apostasy in the official exercise of the Papacy. Were it otherwise, the Catholic teaching on the Papacy would become meaningless and, worse yet, false and dangerous:
    Quote
    If the Pope should happen to fall into heresy, he is no longer a member of the Church, much less its head. It is understood that the Pope cannot be guilty of heresy when he speaks infallibly ex cathedraThe supposition is only possible should the Pope teach heretical doctrine in a private capacity.
    (Rev. Matthew Ramstein, A Manual of Canon Law [Hoboken, NJ: Terminal Printing & Publishing Co., 1948], p. 193; underlining added.)
    The Pope is the Teacher and Shepherd of the whole Church, thus, the whole Church is so bound to hear and follow him that if he would err, the whole Church would err. Now our adversaries respond that the Church ought to hear him so long as he teaches correctly, for God must be heard more than men. On the other hand, who will judge whether the Pope has taught rightly or not? For it is not for the sheep to judge whether the shepherd wanders off, not even and especially in those matters which are truly doubtful. Nor do Christian sheep have any greater judge or teacher to whom they might have recourse. As we showed above, from the whole Church one can appeal to the Pope yet, from him no one is able to appeal; therefore necessarily the whole Church will err if the Pontiff would err.
    (St. Robert Bellarmine, On the Roman Pontiff, Book IV, Chapter 3; , p. 160; underlining added.)
    More on that issue can be found here:
    Whether publication of the heretical and blasphemous Docuмent on Human Fraternity in the Acta also makes it part of Francis’ official magisterium, is not clear. Novus Ordo educator Dr. Jeffrey Mirus asserts that inclusion of a text in the Acta alone does not make it magisterial. Although he does not actually prove his contention, we cannot refute it either.

    In any case, whether it be magisterial or not, is not that important. The most important point is that Francis has publicly and officially — in his capacity as “Pope” — proclaimed a heresy so blatant that it destroys the foundations of the Roman Catholic religion and lays the groundwork for the Antichrist, because if God positively wills there to be a variety of religions, then this means that all religions are equal, and if all religions are equal, they can only be equally false, since they contradict one another. Thus people will come to accept the lie that no religion is actually true, and the Antichrist, once he arrives, will have no difficulty establishing his own religion, in which he himself is worshipped (cf. 2 Thess 2:3-4).

    For Francis to proclaim in his official acts that a diversity of religions is (positively) willed by God, therefore, proves he cannot be a true Pope. Game over!

    Now, some may think that Francis’ heresy in the Docuмent on Human Fraternity is something he came up with on his own and will perhaps also die with him. But that is a great mistake. In fact, one can see the roots of this heresy, for example, in the teaching of “Pope” and now “Saint” John Paul II, who taught explicitly:

    Quote
    It must first be kept in mind that every quest of the human spirit for truth and goodness, and in the last analysis for God, is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The various religions arose precisely from this primordial human openness to God. At their origins we often find founders who, with the help of God’s Spirit, achieved a deeper religious experience. Handed on to others, this experience took form in the doctrines, rites and precepts of the various religions.
    (Antipope John Paul II, General AudienceVatican.va, Sep. 9, 1998)
    This is blatant heretical blasphemy! It is Modernism!
    Pope St. Pius X, the mauler of the Modernists, described their poisonous doctrine as follows. See if you notice certain parallels with what was just quoted of John Paul II:
    Quote
    …[F]aith, which is the basis and foundation of all religion, must consist in a certain interior sense, originating in a need of the divine [according to the Modernists]. This need of the divine, which is experienced only in special and favorable circuмstances, cannot of itself appertain to the domain of consciousness, but is first latent beneath consciousness, or, to borrow a term from modern philosophy, in the subconsciousness, where also its root lies hidden and undetected.
    It may perhaps be asked how it is that this need of the divine which man experiences within himself resolves itself into religion? To this question the Modernist reply would be as follows: Science and history are confined within two boundaries, the one external, namely, the visible world, the other internal, which is consciousness. When one or other of these limits has been reached, there can be no further progress, for beyond is the unknowable. In presence of this unknowable, whether it is outside man and beyond the visible world of nature, or lies hidden within the subconsciousness, the need of the divine in a soul which is prone to religion excites — according to the principles of Fideism, without any previous advertence of the mind — a certain special sense, and this sense possesses, implied within itself both as its own object and as its intrinsic cause, the divine reality itself, and in a way unites man with God. It is this sense to which Modernists give the name of faith, and this is what they hold to be the beginning of religion.
    …How far this position is removed from that of Catholic teaching! We have already seen how its fallacies have been condemned by the Vatican Council. Later on, we shall see how these errors, combined with those which we have already mentioned, open wide the way to Atheism. Here it is well to note at once that, given this doctrine of experience united with that of symbolism, every religion, even that of paganism, must be held to be trueWhat is to prevent such experiences from being found in any religion? In fact, that they are so is maintained by not a few. On what grounds can Modernists deny the truth of an experience affirmed by a follower of Islam? Will they claim a monopoly of true experiences for Catholics alone? Indeed, Modernists do not deny, but actually maintain, some confusedly, others frankly, that all religions are true. That they cannot feel otherwise is obvious. For on what ground, according to their theories, could falsity be predicated of any religion whatsoever? Certainly it would be either on account of the falsity of the religious sense or on account of the falsity of the formula pronounced by the mind. Now the religious sense, although it maybe more perfect or less perfect, is always one and the same; and the intellectual formula, in order to be true, has but to respond to the religious sense and to the believer, whatever be the intellectual capacity of the latter. In the conflict between different religions, the most that Modernists can maintain is that the Catholic has more truth because it is more vivid, and that it deserves with more reason the name of Christian because it corresponds more fully with the origins of Christianity. No one will find it unreasonable that these consequences flow from the premises. …
    There is yet another element in this part of their teaching which is absolutely contrary to Catholic truth. For what is laid down as to experience is also applied with destructive effect to tradition, which has always been maintained by the Catholic Church. Tradition, as understood by the Modernists, is a communication with others of an original experience, through preaching by means of the intellectual formula. To this formula, in addition to its representative value they attribute a species of suggestive efficacy which acts firstly in the believer by stimulating the religious sense, should it happen to have grown sluggish, and by renewing the experience once acquired, and secondly, in those who do not yet believe by awakening in them for the first time the religious sense and producing the experience. In this way is religious experience spread abroad among the nations; and not merely among contemporaries by preaching, but among future generations both by books and by oral transmission from one to another. Sometimes this communication of religious experience takes root and thrives, at other times it withers at once and dies. For the Modernists, to live is a proof of truth, since for them life and truth are one and the same thing. Thus we are once more led to infer that all existing religions are equally true, for otherwise they would not survive.
    (Pope Pius X, Encyclical Pascendi Dominici Gregis, nn. 7,14-15; underlining added.)
    But just as Francis’ doctrine can be found, at least seminally, in John Paul, so John Paul’s doctrine can be found rooted in the apostate Second Vatican Council (1962-65).

    Thus we can see that the apostasy began not with Bergoglio but with Vatican II, which laid the doctrinal groundwork for the Novus Ordo religion that in our day is taken for genuine Catholicism. The entire conciliar and post-conciliar magisterium is saturated with false theological ideas, and in our day we can see the ripe, or rather, rotten fruit of all this wickedness. Francis is merely putting the icing on the cake and making the defection from the Faith extremely visible.
    Whoever cannot see it now, is blind.






    I left out parts from this page:


    https://novusordowatch.org/2022/02/human-fraternity-declaration-becomes-papal-act/
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #22 on: June 05, 2023, 12:36:55 PM »
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  • Idiotic.  Read the explanation of internal assent I just posted from Msgr. Fenton.

    While SVs exaggerate the notion of internal assent as being tantamount to infallibility, you reduce it to the point where an Ecuмenical Council can teach error to the Church.  Your position is at once disingenuous and hypocritical.

    Despite the fact that you claim this is a contradiction (being oblivious to what internal assent means), it's the height of absurdity to claim that a letter to the Bishop of Limmerick is infallible but an Ecuмenical Council is not.

    So you go blundering and buffooning from one stupidity to another.

    Looks like you got caught in a trap of your own construct.


    :popcorn:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Benzel

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #23 on: June 05, 2023, 02:22:51 PM »
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  • Theologians have taught that the pope is infallible in universal disciplinary laws and that this proposition is theologically certain.  However, I don't ever recall seeing the syllogism spelled out that reaches this conclusion.  Can anyone show me where I can find it or present it here?  The terms used in the syllogism should be defined.


    https://isidore.co/calibre#book_id=7428&library_id=CalibreLibrary&panel=book_details

    Offline Joe Cupertino

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #24 on: June 05, 2023, 03:27:51 PM »
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  • Theologians have taught that the pope is infallible in universal disciplinary laws and that this proposition is theologically certain.  However, I don't ever recall seeing the syllogism spelled out that reaches this conclusion.  Can anyone show me where I can find it or present it here?  The terms used in the syllogism should be defined.

    Here is Van Noort on the infallibility of universal disciplinary laws, as posted by SJB (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/papal-infallibility-fact-versus-fantasy!/):


    Quote
    Assertion 3: The Church's infallibility extends to the general discipline of the Church. This proposition is theologically certain.

    By the term “general discipline of the Church” are meant those ecclesiastical laws passed for the universal Church for the direction of Christian worship and Christian living. Note the italicized words: ecclesiastical laws, passed for the universal Church.

    The imposing of commands belongs not directly to the teaching office but to the ruling office; disciplinary laws are only indirectly an object of infallibility, i.e., only by reason of the doctrinal decision implicit in them. When the Church's rulers sanction a law, they implicitly make a twofold judgment:
    1. “This law squares with the Church's doctrine of faith and morals”; that is, it imposes nothing that is at odds with sound belief and good morals. (15) This amounts to a doctrinal decree.
    2. “This law, considering all the circuмstances, is most opportune.” This is a decree of practical judgment.

    Although it would he rash to cast aspersions on the timeliness of a law, especially at the very moment when the Church imposes or expressly reaffirms it, still the Church does not claim to he infallible in issuing a decree of practical judgment. For the Church's rulers were never promised the highest degree of prudence for the conduct of affairs. But the Church is infallible in issuing a doctrinal decree as intimated above — and to such an extent that it can never sanction a universal law which would be at odds with faith or morality or would be by its very nature conducive to the injury of souls.

    The Church's infallibility in disciplinary matters, when understood in this way, harmonizes beautifully with the mutability of even universal laws. For a law, even though it be thoroughly consonant with revealed truth, can, given a change in circuмstances, become less timely or even useless, so that prudence may dictate its abrogation or modification.

    Proof:

    1. From the purpose of infallibility. The Church was endowed with infallibility that it might safeguard the whole of Christ's doctrine and be for all men a trustworthy teacher of the Christian way of life. But if the Church could make a mistake in the manner alleged when it legislated for the general discipline, it would no longer be either a loyal guardian of revealed doctrine or a trustworthy teacher of the Christian way of life. It would not be a guardian of revealed doctrine, for the imposition of a vicious law would be, for all practical purposes, tantamount to an erroneous definition of doctrine; everyone would naturally conclude that what the Church had commanded squared with sound doctrine. It would not be a teacher of the Christian way of life, for by its laws it would induce corruption into the practice of religious life.

    2. From the official statement of the Church, which stigmatized as “at least erroneous” the hypothesis “that the Church could establish discipline which would be dangerous, harmful, and conducive to superstition and materialism. (16)

    Corollary

    The well-known axiom, Lex orandi est lex credendi (The law of prayer is the law of belief), is a special application of the doctrine of the Church's infallibility in disciplinary matters. This axiom says in effect that formulae of prayer approved for public use in the universal Church cannot contain errors against faith or morals. But it would be quite wrong to conclude from this that all the historical facts which are recorded here and there in the lessons of the Roman Breviary, or all the explanations of scriptural passages which are used in the homilies of the Breviary must be taken as infallibly true.(17) As far as the former are concerned, those particular facts are not an object of infallibility since they have no necessary connection with revelation. As for the latter, the Church orders their recitation not because they are certainly true, but because they are edifying.

    15. An example may help to clarify the matter. If the whole Christ were not present under the appearances of bread alone, the law forbidding lay people to drink from the chalice would offend against the faith. Or if the words increase and multiply (Gen. 1:28) constituted an ordinance binding every individual man, then the law of celibacy would be opposed to right morals. The same conclusion would hold if virginal purity were morally impossible for men.

    16. The bull Auctorem fidei (DB 1578).

    17. See Benedict XIV, De servorum Dei beatificatione, lib. IV, pars II, chap. 13, nos. 7-8. Very many bishops asked the Vatican Council for an appropriate revision of the Breviary on some points “which seem not at all square with established historical fact and sound scriptural exegesis” (Coll. Lac., VII, 874; see VII, 844, 882). There should be nothing surprising about this. At the time the Roman Breviary was edited, the critical apparatus now our disposal was simply not available.



    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #26 on: June 05, 2023, 04:36:26 PM »
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  • Here is Van Noort on the infallibility of universal disciplinary laws, as posted by SJB (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/papal-infallibility-fact-versus-fantasy!/):

    Thank you, but this is not written in a syllogistic format.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #27 on: June 05, 2023, 06:04:40 PM »
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  • Theologians distinguished between these authorities (what's at issue is the Pope, and not just any authority) as PRIVATE PERSONS vs. acting in their official capacity.

    To assert that Montini was acting as a private person in promulgating the NOM is the height of absurdity.
    Note this quote from Miser, above, which opposes the Pope acting as a PRIVATE PERSON with the Pope acting INFALLIBLY. This is how I have seen it used elsewhere. This is why Archbishop Lefebvre says we must examine in all these promulgations, like the NOM, to what extent the Pope willed to engage his infallibility:

    If the Pope should happen to fall into heresy, he is no longer a member of the Church, much less its head. It is understood that the Pope cannot be guilty of heresy when he speaks infallibly ex cathedra. The supposition is only possible should the Pope teach heretical doctrine in a private capacity. (that is, when teaching not ex cathedra - my addition)

    (Rev. Matthew Ramstein, A Manual of Canon Law [Hoboken, NJ: Terminal Printing & Publishing Co., 1948], p. 193)

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #28 on: June 05, 2023, 06:58:03 PM »
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  • Note this quote from Miser, above, which opposes the Pope acting as a PRIVATE PERSON with the Pope acting INFALLIBLY. This is how I have seen it used elsewhere. This is why Archbishop Lefebvre says we must examine in all these promulgations, like the NOM, to what extent the Pope willed to engage his infallibility:

    If the Pope should happen to fall into heresy, he is no longer a member of the Church, much less its head. It is understood that the Pope cannot be guilty of heresy when he speaks infallibly ex cathedra. The supposition is only possible should the Pope teach heretical doctrine in a private capacity. (that is, when teaching not ex cathedra - my addition)

    (Rev. Matthew Ramstein, A Manual of Canon Law [Hoboken, NJ: Terminal Printing & Publishing Co., 1948], p. 193)

    Ex Cathedra does not mean "infallibly".  In addition to teaching from the Chair (i.e. in his official capacity as Pope), the other notes have to be applied.  This is an unfortunate misapplication of a "shorthand" term that leads to a misunderstanding of the term itself.  See again the definition of the term in Pastor Aeternus.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The Pope and Universal Disciplinary Laws
    « Reply #29 on: June 05, 2023, 07:13:44 PM »
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  • Ex Cathedra does not mean "infallibly".  In addition to teaching from the Chair (i.e. in his official capacity as Pope), the other notes have to be applied.  This is an unfortunate misapplication of a "shorthand" term that leads to a misunderstanding of the term itself.  See again the definition of the term in Pastor Aeternus.
    Thanks Ladislaus. I'm happy for you to provide the words from PA you are referring to and tell me what you mean. Quite simply, ex cathedra describes the Infallible Extraordinary Magisterium. The Ordinary Magisterium is only infallible in so far as it is universal (hence, the UOM - Universal Ordinary Magisterium), that is, when it is accordance with Tradition.