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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Plenus Venter on December 31, 2023, 10:31:17 PM

Title: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Plenus Venter on December 31, 2023, 10:31:17 PM


Fr. Le Floch, superior of the French Seminary in Rome, announced in 1926
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"The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility".


(https://i.imgur.com/jkGuTQj.gif)
Fr. Le Floch, first row center and Marcel Lefebvre, second row on the left

Clear Ideas on the Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Si Si No No January 2002, No 44

What worries Catholics most in the current crisis in the Church is precisely the "problem of the Pope." We need very clear ideas on this question. We must avoid shipwreck to the right and to the left, either by the spirit of rebellion or, on the other hand, by an inappropriate and servile obedience. The serious error which is behind many current disasters is the belief that the "Authentic Magisterium" is nothing other than the "Ordinary Magisterium,"
The "Authentic Magisterium" cannot be so simply identified with the Ordinary Magisterium. In fact, the Ordinary Magisterium can be infallible and non-infallible, and it is only in this second case that it is called the "Authentic Magisterium." The Dictionnaire de Théologie Catholique [hereafter referred to as DTC - Ed.] under the heading of "papal infallibility" (vol. VII, col.1699ff) makes the following distinctions: 1) there is the "infallible or ex cathedra papal definition in the sense defined by Vatican I" (col.1699); 2) there is the "infallible papal teaching which flows from the pope's Ordinary Magisterium" (col.1705); 3) there is "non-infallible papal teaching" (col.1709).
Similarly, Salaverri, in his Sacrae Theologiae Summa (vol. I, 5th ed., Madrid, B.A.C.) distinguishes the following: 1) Extraordinary Infallible Papal Magisterium (no. 592ff); 2) Ordinary Infallible Papal Magisterium (no. 645ff); 3) Papal Magisterium that is mere authenticuм, that is, only "authentic" or "authorized" as regards the person himself, not as regards his infallibility (no.659ff).
While he always has full and supreme doctrinal authority, the pope does not always exercise it at its highest level, that is at the level of infallibility. As the theologians say, he is like a giant who does not always use his full strength. What follows is this:
1)     "It would be incorrect to say that the pope is infallible simply by possessing papal authority," as we read in the Acts of Vatican I (Coll.L ac. 399b). This would be equivalent to saying that the pope's authority and his infallibility are the same thing.
2)    It is necessary to know "what degree of assent is due to the decrees of the sovereign pontiff when he is teaching at a level which is not that of infallibility, i.e., when he is not exercising the supreme degree of his doctrinal authority" (Salaverri, op.cit., no.659).
 
Error by Excess and/or By Defect
Unfortunately this three-fold distinction between the Extraordinary Magisterium, the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium, and the authentic non-infallible Magisterium, has fallen into oblivion. This has resulted in two opposite errors in the crisis situation of the Church at the present time: the error by excess of those who extend papal infallibility to all acts of the pope, without distinction; and the error by defect of those who restrict infallibility to definitions that have been uttered ex cathedra.
The error by excess actually eliminates the Ordinary Non-Infallible or "Authentic" Magisterium and inevitably leads either to Sedevacantism or to servile obedience. The attitude of the people of this second category is, "The pope is always infallible and so we always owe him blind obedience."
The error by defect eliminates the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. This is precisely the error of the neo-Modernists, who devalue the ordinary papal Magisterium and the "Roman tradition" which they find so inconvenient. They say, "The pope is infallible only in his Extraordinary Magisterium, so we can sweep away 2000 years of ordinary papal Magisterium."
Both of these errors obscure the precise notion of the Ordinary Magisterium, which includes the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the ordinary, "authentic," non-infallible Magisterium.
 
Confusion and Controversy
These two opposing errors are not new. They were denounced even before Vatican II. In 1954, Fr. Labourdette, O.P., wrote:
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Many persons have retained very naive ideas about what they learned concerning the personal infallibility of the sovereign pontiff in the solemn and abnormal exercise of his power of teaching. For some, every word of the supreme pontiff will in some way partake of the value of an infallible teaching, requiring the absolute assent of theological faith; for others, acts which are not presented with the manifest conditions of a definition ex cathedra will seem to have no greater authority than that of any private teacher (Revue Thomiste LIV, 1954, p.196)!
Dom Paul Nau has also written about the confusion that has arisen between the pope's authority and his infallibility:
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By a strange reversal, while the personal infallibility of the pope in a solemn judgment, so long disputed, was definitely placed beyond all controversy, it is the Ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Church which seems to have been lost sight of.
It all happened - as is not unheard of elsewhere in the history of doctrine - as if the very brilliance of the Vatican I definition had cast into shadow the truth hitherto universally recognized; we might almost say, as if the definition of the infallibility of the solemn judgments made these henceforth the unique method by which the sovereign pontiff would put forward the rule of faith [Pope or Church? Angelus Press, 1998, p.13].
On the temporary fading of a doctrine from Catholic consciousness, see the entry "dogme" in DTC (vol.IV).
Dom Nau also mentioned the disastrous consequences which flow from this identification of the pope's authority and his infallibility:
No place would be left, intermediate between such private acts and the solemn papal judgments, for a teaching which, while authentic, is not equally guaranteed throughout all its various expressions. If things are looked at from this angle, the very notion of the Ordinary Magisterium becomes, properly speaking, unthinkable [Pope or Church? p.4].
Dom Nau considered from where this phenomenon had developed:
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Since 1870 [the year of Vatican I - Ed.], manuals of theology have taken the formulae in which their statements of doctrine have been framed from the actual wording of the Council text. None of these treated in its own right of the ordinary teaching of the pope, which has accordingly, little by little, slipped out of sight and all pontifical teaching has seemed to be reduced solely to solemn definitions ex cathedra. Once attention was entirely directed to these, it became customary to consider the doctrinal interventions of the Holy See solely from the standpoint of the solemn judgment, that of a judgment which ought in itself to bring to the doctrine all the necessary guarantees of certainty (ibid., p.13).
This is partly true, but we should not forget that liberal theology had already been advertising its reductive agenda. That is why Pius IX, even before Vatican I (1870) felt obliged to warn German theologians that divine faith's submission "must not be restricted only to those points which have been defined" (Letter to Archbishop of Munich, Dec. 21, 1863).
The naive ideas entertained by many on the question of papal infallibility after Vatican I played into the hands of the liberal theology. In fact, while the two errors are diametrically opposed, they are at one in equating papal authority and papal infallibility. What is the difference between them? The error by excess, regarding as infallible everything that comes from papal authority, stretches the pope's infallibility to the extent of his authority. The error by defect, considering only those things authorized that emanate from the ex cathedra infallibility, restricts papal authority to the scope of the infallibility of the pope's Extraordinary Magisterium. Thus both errors have the same effect, namely, to obscure the very notion of the Ordinary Magisterium and, consequently, the particular nature of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. It is essential for us to rediscover this notion and its nature because they are of the greatest importance in helping us to get our bearings in the time of crisis.
 
The Ordinary Magisterium in Shadow:
 Humanae Vitae
and Ordinatio Sacerdotalis

The lack of clear ideas on the pope's Ordinary Magisterium appeared in full with Pope Paul VI's encyclical, Humanae Vitae, and more recently with Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, in which Pope John Paul II repeated the Church's refusal to ordain women.
When Humanae Vitae came out, various theologians indicated that the notion of ordinary papal Magisterium was obscured. Generally speaking, those who supported the infallibility of Humanae Vitae deduced "the proof [of this infallibility - Ed.] on the basis of the Church's constant and universal Authentic Magisterium, which has never been abandoned and therefore was already definitive in earlier centuries." In other words, on the basis of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium (E. Lio, Humanae Vitae ed infallibilità, Libreria Ed. Vaticana, p.38). They should have noticed that even the notion of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and its particularity [its constancy and universality - Ed.] had been effaced from the minds not only of the ordinary faithful but also of the theologians. Cardinal Siri commented:
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By presenting only two possible hypotheses for the case in question [the encyclical Humanae Vitae - Ed.], namely, an ex cathedra definition [which was avoided - Ed.] that is, proceeding from the solemn Magisterium, and that of the Authentic Magisterium [which does not of itself imply infallibility - Ed.], a grave sophism in enumeration has been committed. It is in fact a serious error, because there is another possible hypothesis, i.e., that of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. It is very strange how certain people are at pains to avoid speaking about this….It is necessary to realize that there is not only a solemn Magisterium and a simply Authentic Magisterium; between these two there is also the Ordinary Magisterium which is endowed with the charism of infallibility (Renovatio, Oct.-Dec., 1968).
The same "sophism of enumeration" was pointed out 30 years later by Msgr. Bertone, speaking against the opposition to Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. On this occasion he explicitly denounced the tendency "to substitute de facto the concept of authority for that of infallibility" (L'Osservatore Romano, Dec. 20, 1996).
In fact, it is not only the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium which has fallen into oblivion, but, since authority and infallibility have been equated, the distinction between Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the ordinary Authentic Magisterium has also been consigned to oblivion. After Vatican I, as Dom Nau wrote,
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Catholics have no longer any reason for hesitating about the authority to be recognized in the dogmatic judgments pronounced by the sovereign pontiff: their infallibility has been solemnly defined in the Constitution Pastor Aeternus ....But definitions of this sort are relatively rare. The pontifical docuмents which come most frequently before the Christian today are encyclicals, allocutions, radio messages which usually derive from the Ordinary Magisterium or ordinary teaching of the Church. Unfortunately, this is where confusions remain still possible and do occur, alas! all too often (op.cit. p.3).
Thus, we will devote ourselves, not to the Extraordinary Magisterium (whose infallibility is generally acknowledged), but to the Ordinary Magisterium. Once we have illustrated the conditions under which it is infallible, it will be clear that outside these conditions we are in the presence of the "authentic" Magisterium to which, in normal times, we should accord due consideration. In abnormal times, however, it would be a fatal error to equate this "authentic" Magisterium with the infallible Magisterium (whether "extraordinary" or "ordinary").
 
The Point of the Question
The infallible guarantee of divine assistance is not limited solely to the acts of the Solemn Magisterium; it also extends to the Ordinary Magisterium, although it does not cover and assure all the latter's acts in the same way" (Fr.Labourdette, O.P., Revue Thomiste 1950, p.38).
Thus, the assent due to the Ordinary Magisterium "can range from simple respect right up to a true act of faith." (Msgr. Guerry, La Doctrine Sociale de l'Église, Paris, Bonne Presse 1957, p.172). It is most important, therefore, to know precisely when the Roman pope's Ordinary Magisterium is endowed with the charism of infallibility.
Since the pope alone possesses the same infallibility conferred by Jesus Christ upon his Church [i.e., the pope plus the bishops in communion with him, cf. Dz.1839), we must conclude that only the pope, in his Ordinary Magisterium, is infallible in the same degree and under the same conditions as the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church is.
Thus the truth that is taught must be proposed as already defined, or as what has always been believed or accepted in the Church, or attested by the unanimous and constant agreement of theologians as being a Catholic truth [which is therefore strictly obligatory for all the faithful ("Infaillibilité du Pape," DTC vol.VII, col.1705).
This condition was recalled by Cardinal Felici in the context of Humanae Vitae:
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On this problem we must remember that a truth may be sure and certain, and hence it may be obligatory, even without the sanction of an ex cathedra definition. So it is with the encyclical Humanae Vitae, in which the pope, the supreme pontiff of the Church, utters a truth which has been constantly taught by the Church's Magisterium and which accords with the precepts of Revelation (L'Osservatore Romano, Oct. 19, 1968, p.3).
No one, in fact, can refuse to believe what has certainly been revealed by God. And it is not only those things that have been defined as such that have certainly been revealed by God; the latter also include whatever has been always and everywhere taught by the Church's Ordinary Magisterium as having been revealed by God. More recently, Msgr. Bertone reminded us that the Ordinary Pontifical Magisterium can teach a doctrine as definitive [bold emphasis in original] in virtue of the fact that it has been constantly preserved and held by Tradition.
Such is the case with Ordinatio Sacerdotalis when it repeats the invalidity of the priestly ordination of women, which has always been held by the Church with "unanimity and stability" (L'Osservatore Romano, Dec. 20, 1996).
Cardinal Siri, still speaking of Humanae Vitae in the issue of the review Renovatio to which we have referred, explains as follows:
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"The question, therefore, must be put objectively thus: given that [Humanae Vitae] is not an act of the Infallible Magisterium and that it therefore does not of itself provide the guarantee of "irreformability" and certitude, would not its substance be nonetheless guaranteed by the Ordinary Magisterium under the conditions under which the Ordinary Magisterium is itself known to be infallible?
After giving a summary of the Church's continuous tradition on contraception, from the Didache to the encyclical Casti Connubii of Pope Pius XI, Cardinal Siri concludes:
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This Encyclical recapitulated the ancient teaching and the habitual teaching of today. This means that we can say that the conditions for the Ordinary irreformable [i.e., infallible - Ed.] Magisterium were met. The period of widespread turbulence is a very recent fact and has nothing to do with the serene possession [of the Magisterium - Ed.] over many centuries (Renovatio, op.cit.).
It is an error, therefore, to extend infallibility unconditionally to the whole of the Ordinary Magisterium of the pope, whether he is speaking urbi et orbi or just addressing pilgrims. It is true that the infallibility of the Extraordinary Magisterium is not enough for the Church; the Extraordinary Magisterium is a rare event, whereas "faith needs infallibility and it needs it every day," as Cardinal Siri himself said (Renovatio, op.cit.). But Cardinal Siri is too good a theologian to forget that even the pope's infallibility has conditions attached to it. If the Ordinary Magisterium is to be infallible, it must be traditional (cf. Salaverri, loc.cit.). If it breaks with Tradition, the Ordinary Magisterium cannot claim any infallibility. Here we see very clearly the very special nature of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium, to which we must devote some attention.
 
The Special Nature of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium
As we have seen, Cardinal Siri observes that the Humanae Vitae, even if it is not an act of the ex cathedra Magisterium, would still furnish the guarantee of infallibility, not "of itself," but insofar as it recapitulates "the ancient teaching and the habitual teaching of today" (Renovatio, ob.cit.). In fact, in contrast to the Extraordinary Magisterium or the Solemn Judgment, the Ordinary Magisterium
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does not consist in an isolated proposition, pronouncing irrevocably on the Faith and containing its own guarantees of truth, but in a collection of acts which can concur in communicating a teaching.
This is the normal procedure by which Tradition, in the fullest sense of that term, is handed down; ...(Pope or Church? op. cit. p.10).
This is precisely why the DTC speaks of "infallible papal teaching which flows from the pope's Ordinary Magisterium" (loc.cit.). So, while a simple doctrinal presentation [by the pope] can never claim the infallibility of a definition, [this infallibility] nonetheless is rigorously implied when there is a convergence on the same subject in a series of docuмents whose continuity, in itself, excludes all possibility of doubt on the authentic content of the Roman teaching (Dom Nau, Une source doctrinale: Les encycliques, p.75).
If we fail to take account of this difference, we are obliterating all distinction between the Extraordinary Magisterium and the Ordinary Magisterium:
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No act of the Ordinary Magisterium as such, taken in isolation, could claim the prerogative which belongs to the supreme judgment. If it did so, it would cease to be the Ordinary Magisterium. An isolated act is infallible only if the supreme Judge engages his whole authority in it so that he cannot go back on it. Such an act cannot be "reversible" without being plainly subject to error. But it is precisely this kind of act, against which there can be no appeal, which constitutes the Solemn [or Extraordinary] Judgment, and which thus differs from the Ordinary Magisterium" (ibid., note 1).
It follows that
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the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium, whether of the Universal Church or that of the See of Rome, is not that of a judgment, not that of an act to be considered in isolation, as if it could itself provide all the light necessary for it to be clearly seen. It is that of the guarantee bestowed on a doctrine by the simultaneous or continuous convergence of a plurality of affirmations or explanations, none of which could bring positive certitude if it were taken by itself alone. Certitude can be expected only from the whole complex, but all the parts concur in making up that whole (Pope or Church? op. cit., p.18).
Dom Paul Nau explains further:
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In the case of the [Ordinary] universal Magisterium, this whole complex is that of the concordant teaching of the bishops in communion with Rome; in the case of the Ordinary pontifical Magisterium [i.e., the pope alone - Ed.], it is the continuity of teaching of the successors of Peter: in other words, it is the "tradition of the Church of Rome," to which Msgr. Gasser appealed at Vatican I (Collana Lacensis, col.404).
About this subject, A.C. Martimort wrote:
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Bossuet's error consisted in rejecting the infallibility of the pope's Extraordinary Magisterium; but he performed the signal service of affirming most clearly the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium [of the pope] and its specific nature, which means that every particular act bears the risk of error ....To sum up: according to the Bishop of Meaux, what applies to the series of Roman popes over time is the same as what applies to the episcopal college dispersed across the world (Le Gallicanisme de Bossuet, Paris, 1953, p.558).
In fact, we know that the bishops, individually, are not infallible. Yet the totality of bishops, throughout time and space, in their moral unanimity, do enjoy infallibility. So if one wishes to ascertain the Church's infallible teaching one must not take the teaching of one particular bishop: it is necessary to look at the "common and continuous teaching" of the episcopate united to the pope, which "cannot deviate from the teaching of Jesus Christ" (E. Piacentini, O.F.M. Conv., Infaillible même dans les causes de canonisation? ENMI, Rome 1994, p.37).
The same thing applies to the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium of the Roman pope on his own: this Ordinary Magisterium is infallible not because each act is uttered by the pope, but because the particular teaching of which the pope's act consists "is inserted into a totality and a continuity" (Dom P.Nau, Le encycliques, op.cit.), which is that of the "series of Roman popes over time" (Martimort, op.cit.).
We can understand why, in their Ordinary Magisterium, the Roman popes have always been careful to associate themselves with their "venerable predecessors," often quoting them at length. "The Church speaks by Our mouth," said Pope Pius XI in the Casti Connubii. Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis, emphasized that "most of the time what is set forth and taught in the encyclicals is already, for other reasons, part of the patrimony of Catholic doctrine."
The very particular nature of the pope's Ordinary Infallible Magisterium was quite clear until Vatican I. While this Council was in session, La Civiltà Cattolica, which published (and still publishes) under the direct control of the Holy See, replied in these words to Fr. Gratry, who had criticized Pope Paul IV's Bull cuм ex Apostolus:
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We ask Fr. Gratry, in all serenity, whether he believes that the Bull of Paul IV is an isolated act, so to speak, or an act that is comparable to others of the same kind in the series of Roman popes. If he replies that it is an isolated act, his argument proves nothing, for he himself affirms that the Bull of Paul IV contains no dogmatic definition. If he replies, as he must, that this Bull is, in substance, conformable to countless other similar acts of the Holy See, his argument says far more than he would wish. In other words, he is saying that a long succession of Roman popes have made public and solemn acts of immorality and injustice against the principles of human reason, of impiety towards God, and of apostasy against the Gospel (vol.X, series VII, 1870, p.54).
This means, in effect, that an "isolated act" of the pope is infallible only in the context of a "dogmatic definition"; outside dogmatic definitions, i.e., in the Ordinary Magisterium, infallibility is guaranteed by the complex of "countless other similar acts of the Holy See," or of a "long succession" of the successors of Peter.
 
Practical Application
Because it declared itself to be non-dogmatic, the charism of infallibility cannot be claimed for the last Council, except insofar as it was re-iterating traditional teaching. Moreover, what is offered as the Ordinary Pontifical Magisterium of the recent popes - apart from certain acts - cannot claim the qualification of the "Ordinary Infallible Magisterium." The pontifical docuмents on the novelties which have troubled and confused the consciences of the faithful manifest no concern whatsoever to adhere to the teaching of "venerable predecessors." They cannot adhere to them because they have broken with them. Look at the footnotes of Dominus Jesus; it's as if the Magisterium of the preceding popes did not exist. It is clear that when today's popes contradict the traditional Magisterium of yesterday's popes, our obedience is due to yesterday's popes: this is a manifest sign of a period of grave ecclesial crisis, of abnormal times in the life of the Church.
Finally, it is evident that the New Theology, which is so unscrupulous in contradicting the traditional teaching of the Roman Pontiffs, contradicts the Infallible Pontifical Magisterium; accordingly, a Catholic must in all conscience reject and actively attack it.
 
The Almost Total Eclipse of the "Authentic" Magisterium
The Church's current crisis is not at the level of the Extraordinary or Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. This would be simply impossible. Furthermore, it is not at the level of the Extraordinary Infallible Magisterium because the Council did not wish to be a dogmatic one, and because Pope Paul VI himself indicated what theological "note" it carried: "Ordinary Magisterium; that is, it is clearly authentic" (General Audience of Dec. 1, 1966: Encycliques et discours de Paul VI , Ed.Paoline,1966, pp.51,52). Lastly, it is not at the level of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. The turmoil and division in the Catholic world have been provoked by a break with this doctrinal continuity. Such a break is the very opposite of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. Thus Paul VI's Humanae Vitae, or John Paul II's intervention against women's ordination in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis caused no dismay to the Church's obedient sons.
The present crisis is at the level of what is presented as the simply "authentic" Magisterium, which, as Cardinal Siri reminds us, "does not of itself imply infallibility" (Renovatio, op.cit.). But are we really dealing with the "authentic" Magisterium?
The author of Iota Unum [available from Angelus Press. Price: $24.95] wrote:
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Nowadays it is no longer the case that every word of the pope constitutes Magisterium. Now, very frequently, it is no more than the expression of views, ideas and considerations that are to be found disseminated throughout the Church,...and of doctrines that have spread and become dominant in much theology ("Église et Contre-Église au Concile Vatican II," Second Theological Congress of SISINONO, Jan. 1996).
The Magisterium, however, even in its non-infallible form, should always be the teaching of the divine Word, even if uttered with a lesser degree of certitude. Nowadays, it is very often the case that "the Pope does not manifest the divine word entrusted to him," but rather "expresses his personal views" which are those of the New Theology. Here we are faced with a "manifestation of the decadence of the Church's Ordinary [`authentic'] Magisterium," a decadence which "is creating a very grave crisis for the Church, because it is the Church's central point which is suffering from it" (ibid.).
Can one really speak of the "authentic" Pontifical Magisterium, or would it be more accurate to speak of an almost total eclipse of the Authentic Pontifical Magisterium in the face of an analogous crisis at the level of the episcopal Magisterium?
 
The Danger of Being Drawn into Error
Catholic are least prepared to meet the crisis of the Authentic Pontifical Magisterium because of the confusion in their minds regarding the distinction between the pope's Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and his simply "authentic" Ordinary Magisterium. This problem was pointed out before Vatican II; it has caused and continues to cause Catholics to be drawn into error who wrongly believe that they should give equal assent to the pope's every word, neglecting the distinctions and precise conditions which we now review.
"The command to believe firmly and without examination of the matter in hand....can be truly binding only if the authority concerned is infallible" (Billot, De Ecclesia, thesis XVII). That is why a firm and unconditional assent is demanded in the case of the Infallible Magisterium (whether Extraordinary or Ordinary).
As regards those non-infallible doctrinal decisions given by the pope or by the Roman congregations, there is a strict duty of obedience which obliges us to give an internal assent ...that is prudent and habitually excludes all reasonable doubt, but this assent is legitimized [not by infallibility, but rather] by the high degree of prudence with which the ecclesiastical authority habitually acts in such circuмstances" (entry "Église" in DTC, vol.IV, co1.2209).
This is why we owe the "authentic" Magisterium not a blind and unconditional assent but a prudent and conditional one:
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Since not everything taught by the Ordinary Magisterium is infallible, we must ask what kind of assent we should give to its various decisions. The Christian is required to give the assent of faith to all the doctrinal and moral truths defined by the Church's Magisterium. He is not required to give the same assent to teaching imparted by the sovereign pontiff that is not imposed on the whole Christian body as a dogma of faith. In this case it suffices to give that inner and religious assent which we give to legitimate ecclesiastical authority. This is not an absolute assent, because such decrees are not infallible, but only a prudential and conditional assent, since in questions of faith and morals there is a presumption in favor of one's superior....Such prudential assent does not eliminate the possibility of submitting the doctrine to a further examination, if that seems required by the gravity of the question (Nicolas Jung, Le Magistère de L’Èglise, 1935, pp.153,154).
Unfortunately, all these truths have disappeared from Catholic consciousness, just as the notion of the "authentic" Magisterium has. The Catholic world is all the more in danger of being drawn into error, since it nourishes the naive and erroneous conviction that God has never permitted the popes to be mistaken, even in the Ordinary Magisterium (and here no distinctions are drawn), and so imagine that the same assent should always be given to the papal Magisterium - which in no way corresponds to the Church's teaching.
 
Infallibility and the "Grace of State"
Our discussion of the "grace of state" of the sovereign pontiff proceeds in the context of the Authentic Magisterium. When the pope engages his infallibility, he enjoys a divine assistance that is entirely special, over and above the grace of state. Nonetheless, even infallibility does not reduce him to the level of an automaton. In fact:
The Divine assistance does not relieve the bearer of the infallible doctrinal power of the obligation of taking pains to know the truth, especially by means of the study of the sources of Revelation (Dz 1836).
That is why, in his Infallible Magisterium, the pope enjoys: 1) the positive assistance of the Holy Spirit so that he can attain the truth, and 2) the negative assistance which preserves him from error. Ultimately, in a case where a pope, by negligence or ill will, were to fail in his duty of seeking out the truth by the appropriate means, infallibility guarantees that God, through a purely negative assistance, would prevent the proclamation ex cathedra of an error.
This guarantee does not exist in the case of the Authentic Magisterium because it does not enjoy the charism of infallibility. That is why everything is entrusted to the grace of state alone, which impels the pope to act with that "high degree of prudence" which, normally, shines forth from the Authentic Magisterium of the successors of Peter. If, however, a pope were to fail to attain this, no divine promise guarantees God will intervene and stop him.
In such a case, indeed, the Catholic world would run the risk of being drawn into error. But it would not be because the pope lacked infallibility; under the due conditions, he would enjoy infallibility just like his predecessors. Nor would it be because he was deprived of the grace of state, but rather that he had not laid hold of that grace. The risk of this is all the greater since the principles we are here setting forth have fallen into oblivion.
When the Catholic world had a clear grasp of these principles the danger of being drawn into error was far less. In the history of the Church, we find it was the justified resistance of cardinals, Catholic universities, Catholic princes, religious, and simple faithful which blocked the faux pas of a number of popes, such as Popes John XXII and Sixtus V, concerning whom St. Robert Bellarmine wrote to Clement VIII:
Your Holiness knows the danger to which Sixtus V exposed himself and all the Church, when he undertook to correct Holy Scripture according to the lights of his own personal knowledge. Truly, I do not know whether the Church has ever been subject to a more grave danger (entry "Jésuites: travaux sur les Saintes Écritures" in F. Vigouroux, Dictionnaire de la Bible, vol.III, cols.1407-1408).
This danger was identified and rejected by the Catholic world. In reality, those who attribute infallibility always to the pope are doing a service neither to themselves, nor to the Church, nor to the pope himself, as the present times are plainly showing us. A pope's faux pas are a severe trial for the entire Catholic world.
 
Normal Times and Abnormal Times
In normal times the faithful can rely on the "authentic" Pontifical Magisterium with the same confidence with which they rely on the Infallible Magisterium. In normal times, it would be a very grave error to fail to take due account of even the simply "authentic" Magisterium of the Roman pope. This is because if everyone were permitted, in the presence of an act of the teaching authority, to suspend his assent or even to doubt or positively reject it on the grounds that it did not imply an infallible definition, it would result in the ecclesiastical Magisterium becoming practically illusory in concrete terms, because the ecclesiastical Magisterium is only relatively rarely expressed in definitions of this kind (DTC, vol.III, col.1110).
It must not be forgotten (as it has been forgotten nowadays) that the security of the Authentic Magisterium is not linked to infallibility, but to the "high degree of prudence" with which the successors of Peter "habitually" proceed, and to the "habitual" care they take never to swerve from the explicit and tacit teaching of their predecessors. Once this prudence and care are missing, we are no longer in normal times. In such a situation it would be a fatal error to equate the Authentic Magisterium of the Roman pontiff with his Infallible Magisterium (Ordinary or Extraordinary). These abnormal times are rare, thanks be to God, but they are not impossible. If we are not to be drawn into error, we urgently need to remember that the assent due to the non-infallible Magisterium is
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...that of inward assent, not as of faith, but as of prudence, the refusal of which could not escape the mark of temerity, unless the doctrine rejected was an actual novelty or involved a manifest discordance between the pontifical affirmation and the doctrine which had hitherto been taught (Dom P.Nau, Pope or Church? op.cit. p.29).
Dom Nau makes it clear that this prudential assent does not apply in the case of a teaching that is "already traditional," which would belong to the sphere of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. However, in the case of a teaching which is not "already traditional," the reservation which interests us does apply: "unless the doctrine rejected...involved a manifest discordance between the pontifical affirmation and the doctrine which had hitherto been taught." Such a situation would legitimize the doctrine's rejection and would imply no "mark of temerity." Is this kind of "discordance" an impossible hypothesis? Dom Nau, whose attachment to the papacy was without doubt, wrote:
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This is not a case which can be excluded a priori since it does not concern a formal definition. But, as Bossuet himself says, "It is so extraordinary that it does not happen more than twice or thrice in a thousand years" (Pope or Church? p.29).
In such a case, refusing one's assent does not only not manifest temerity: it is a positive duty. The "discordance" with "doctrine which had hitherto been taught" dispenses the Catholic from all obligation to obedience on this point:
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The general principle is that one owes obedience to the orders of a superior unless, in a particular case, the order appears manifestly unjust. Similarly, a Catholic is bound to adhere interiorly to the teachings of legitimate authority until it becomes evident to him that a particular assertion is erroneous (DTC, vol.III, col.1110).
In the case we are examining, evidence of error is provided where an act of the Authentic Magisterium is discordant with the Extraordinary or Ordinary Infallible Magisterium, i.e., discordant with the traditional doctrine, to which the Catholic conscience is bound for eternity.
 
Faith Does Not Require the Abdication of Logic
In conclusion we shall excerpt the text of a theologian, whose passing is much to be regretted, who had a very clear grasp of the doctrine we are recalling here, and who knew well that it had been brought into confusion by the New Theologians. In arguing against Joseph KIeiner on the manifest contradiction between Pope Pius VI's Auctorem Fidei, which condemns concelebration, and Pope Paul VI's Instructio, which encourages it, Fr. Joseph de SainteMarie, O.C.D., wrote:
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Has it ever been known for the Magisterium to intervene against a declaration of the Magisterium? In his mind [i.e., ofJoseph Kleiner - Ed.] the reply must be in the negative: No, for the sake of the infallibility of the Magisterium. This infallibility does imply, of course, that the Church cannot contradict herself, but only under a condition which our author has forgotten, namely, that she engages the fullness of her infallibility in such an act; or, in the case of the Ordinary Magisterium (and we must take great care not to minimize the latter's authority), provided that it conforms to what the Infallible Magisterium teaches, either in its solemn acts or in its constant teaching. If these conditions are not respected, there is nothing impossible about one "intervention" of the Magisterium being in contradiction with another. There is nothing to trouble one's faith here, for infallibility is not involved; but people's Catholic sensibilities are right to be scandalized at it, for such facts reveal a profound disorder in the exercise of the Magisterium. To deny the existence of these facts in the name of an erroneous understanding of the Church's infallibility, and to deny it a priori, is to fly in the face of the demands of theology, of history, and of the most elementary common sense.
The facts are there. They cannot be denied. We have given an example of them, and others could be given. It will suffice to recall...the Institutio Generalis which introduces the Novus Ordo Missae, particularly its celebrated Article 7. There the dogmas of the Eucharist and the priesthood were presented in such ambiguous terms, and so obviously orientated towards Protestantism - to say no more - that they had to be rectified. This Institutio, however, constituted an "intervention by the Magisterium." Should it be accepted on that account, when it was going in a direction manifestly contrary to that of the Council of Trent, in which the Church had engaged her infallibility? If we were to follow the approach urged by Joseph Kleiner and so many others, the answer would be: "Yes." But to do this we would have to swallow the contradiction by denying that there is a contradiction - which is in itself contradictory. This would be a real abdication of the intellect, and it would leave us defenseless in the face of a principle of authority that would be totally outside the control of truth. Such an attitude is not in conformity with what the Magisterium itself requires of the faithful....Faith demands the submission of the intellect in the face of the Mystery that transcends it, not its abdication when confronted with the demands of intellectual coherence which pertain to its sphere of competence; judgment is a virtue of the intellect. That is why, when a contradiction is evident, as in the two cases we have just cited, the believer's duty (and, even more, the duty of the theologian) is to address the Magisterium and ask for the said contradiction to be removed (L’Eucharistie, salut du monde, Paris , ed.du Cèdre, 1981, p.56ff).
To this, nothing need be added, except perhaps to invite readers to pray the Divine Pity, through the intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, to remove, as soon as possible, this exceedingly severe trial from the Catholic world. - Hirpinus


This article was translated by Graham hαɾɾιson for Angelus Press, edited and abridged by Fr. Kenneth Novak. For a more all-encompassing study, see Pope or Church? Essays on the Infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium (65pp.), available from Angelus Press. Price: $7.95.
 



Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Plenus Venter on January 01, 2024, 04:32:45 AM
Excerpt:

The lack of clear ideas on the pope's Ordinary Magisterium appeared in full with Pope Paul VI's encyclical, Humanae Vitae, and more recently with Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, in which Pope John Paul II repeated the Church's refusal to ordain women.
When Humanae Vitae came out, various theologians indicated that the notion of ordinary papal Magisterium was obscured. Generally speaking, those who supported the infallibility of Humanae Vitae deduced "the proof [of this infallibility - Ed.] on the basis of the Church's constant and universal Authentic Magisterium, which has never been abandoned and therefore was already definitive in earlier centuries." In other words, on the basis of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium (E. Lio, Humanae Vitae ed infallibilità, Libreria Ed. Vaticana, p.38). They should have noticed that even the notion of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and its particularity [its constancy and universality - Ed.] had been effaced from the minds not only of the ordinary faithful but also of the theologians. Cardinal Siri commented:
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Quote
By presenting only two possible hypotheses for the case in question [the encyclical Humanae Vitae - Ed.], namely, an ex cathedra definition [which was avoided - Ed.] that is, proceeding from the solemn Magisterium, and that of the Authentic Magisterium [which does not of itself imply infallibility - Ed.], a grave sophism in enumeration has been committed. It is in fact a serious error, because there is another possible hypothesis, i.e., that of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. It is very strange how certain people are at pains to avoid speaking about this….It is necessary to realize that there is not only a solemn Magisterium and a simply Authentic Magisterium; between these two there is also the Ordinary Magisterium which is endowed with the charism of infallibility (Renovatio, Oct.-Dec., 1968).
[...]

In fact, it is not only the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium which has fallen into oblivion, but, since authority and infallibility have been equated, the distinction between Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the ordinary Authentic Magisterium has also been consigned to oblivion. After Vatican I, as Dom Nau wrote,
Quote
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Catholics have no longer any reason for hesitating about the authority to be recognized in the dogmatic judgments pronounced by the sovereign pontiff: their infallibility has been solemnly defined in the Constitution Pastor Aeternus ....But definitions of this sort are relatively rare. The pontifical docuмents which come most frequently before the Christian today are encyclicals, allocutions, radio messages which usually derive from the Ordinary Magisterium or ordinary teaching of the Church. Unfortunately, this is where confusions remain still possible and do occur, alas! all too often (op.cit. p.3).
[...]

Cardinal Siri, still speaking of Humanae Vitae in the issue of the review Renovatio to which we have referred, explains as follows:
Quote
Quote
"The question, therefore, must be put objectively thus: given that [Humanae Vitae] is not an act of the Infallible Magisterium and that it therefore does not of itself provide the guarantee of "irreformability" and certitude, would not its substance be nonetheless guaranteed by the Ordinary Magisterium under the conditions under which the Ordinary Magisterium is itself known to be infallible?

After giving a summary of the Church's continuous tradition on contraception, from the Didache to the encyclical Casti Connubii of Pope Pius XI, Cardinal Siri concludes:
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This Encyclical recapitulated the ancient teaching and the habitual teaching of today. This means that we can say that the conditions for the Ordinary irreformable [i.e., infallible - Ed.] Magisterium were met. The period of widespread turbulence is a very recent fact and has nothing to do with the serene possession [of the Magisterium - Ed.] over many centuries (Renovatio, op.cit.).

It is an error, therefore, to extend infallibility unconditionally to the whole of the Ordinary Magisterium of the pope, whether he is speaking urbi et orbi or just addressing pilgrims. It is true that the infallibility of the Extraordinary Magisterium is not enough for the Church; the Extraordinary Magisterium is a rare event, whereas "faith needs infallibility and it needs it every day," as Cardinal Siri himself said (Renovatio, op.cit.). But Cardinal Siri is too good a theologian to forget that even the pope's infallibility has conditions attached to it. If the Ordinary Magisterium is to be infallible, it must be traditional (cf. Salaverri, loc.cit.). If it breaks with Tradition, the Ordinary Magisterium cannot claim any infallibility. Here we see very clearly the very special nature of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium, to which we must devote some attention.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on January 01, 2024, 04:48:24 AM

Fr. Le Floch, superior of the French Seminary in Rome, announced in 1926

(https://i.imgur.com/jkGuTQj.gif)
Fr. Le Floch, first row center and Marcel Lefebvre, second row on the left

Clear Ideas on the Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Si Si No No January 2002, No 44

What worries Catholics most in the current crisis in the Church is precisely the "problem of the Pope." We need very clear ideas on this question. We must avoid shipwreck to the right and to the left, either by the spirit of rebellion or, on the other hand, by an inappropriate and servile obedience. The serious error which is behind many current disasters is the belief that the "Authentic Magisterium" is nothing other than the "Ordinary Magisterium,"
The "Authentic Magisterium" cannot be so simply identified with the Ordinary Magisterium. In fact, the Ordinary Magisterium can be infallible and non-infallible, and it is only in this second case that it is called the "Authentic

Magisterium." The Dictionnaire de Théologie Catholique [hereafter referred to as DTC - Ed.] under the heading of "papal infallibility" (vol. VII, col.1699ff) makes the following distinctions: 1) there is the "infallible or ex cathedra papal definition in the sense defined by Vatican I" (col.1699); 2) there is the "infallible papal teaching which flows from the pope's Ordinary Magisterium" (col.1705); 3) there is "non-infallible papal teaching" (col.1709).

Similarly, Salaverri, in his Sacrae Theologiae Summa (vol. I, 5th ed., Madrid, B.A.C.) distinguishes the following: 1) Extraordinary Infallible Papal Magisterium (no. 592ff); 2) Ordinary Infallible Papal Magisterium (no. 645ff); 3) Papal Magisterium that is mere authenticuм, that is, only "authentic" or "authorized" as regards the person himself, not as regards his infallibility (no.659ff).
While he always has full and supreme doctrinal authority, the pope does not always exercise it at its highest level, that is at the level of infallibility. As the theologians say, he is like a giant who does not always use his full strength. What follows is this:
1)    "It would be incorrect to say that the pope is infallible simply by possessing papal authority," as we read in the Acts of Vatican I (Coll.L ac. 399b). This would be equivalent to saying that the pope's authority and his infallibility are the same thing.
2)    It is necessary to know "what degree of assent is due to the decrees of the sovereign pontiff when he is teaching at a level which is not that of infallibility, i.e., when he is not exercising the supreme degree of his doctrinal authority" (Salaverri, op.cit., no.659).
 
Error by Excess and/or By Defect
Unfortunately this three-fold distinction between the Extraordinary Magisterium, the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium, and the authentic non-infallible Magisterium, has fallen into oblivion. This has resulted in two opposite errors in the crisis situation of the Church at the present time: the error by excess of those who extend papal infallibility to all acts of the pope, without distinction; and the error by defect of those who restrict infallibility to definitions that have been uttered ex cathedra.
The error by excess actually eliminates the Ordinary Non-Infallible or "Authentic" Magisterium and inevitably leads either to Sedevacantism or to servile obedience. The attitude of the people of this second category is, "The pope is always infallible and so we always owe him blind obedience."
The error by defect eliminates the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. This is precisely the error of the neo-Modernists, who devalue the ordinary papal Magisterium and the "Roman tradition" which they find so inconvenient. They say, "The pope is infallible only in his Extraordinary Magisterium, so we can sweep away 2000 years of ordinary papal Magisterium."
Both of these errors obscure the precise notion of the Ordinary Magisterium, which includes the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the ordinary, "authentic," non-infallible Magisterium.
 
Confusion and Controversy
These two opposing errors are not new. They were denounced even before Vatican II. In 1954, Fr. Labourdette, O.P., wrote:Dom Paul Nau has also written about the confusion that has arisen between the pope's authority and his infallibility:It all happened - as is not unheard of elsewhere in the history of doctrine - as if the very brilliance of the Vatican I definition had cast into shadow the truth hitherto universally recognized; we might almost say, as if the definition of the infallibility of the solemn judgments made these henceforth the unique method by which the sovereign pontiff would put forward the rule of faith [Pope or Church? Angelus Press, 1998, p.13].
On the temporary fading of a doctrine from Catholic consciousness, see the entry "dogme" in DTC (vol.IV).
Dom Nau also mentioned the disastrous consequences which flow from this identification of the pope's authority and his infallibility:
No place would be left, intermediate between such private acts and the solemn papal judgments, for a teaching which, while authentic, is not equally guaranteed throughout all its various expressions. If things are looked at from this angle, the very notion of the Ordinary Magisterium becomes, properly speaking, unthinkable [Pope or Church? p.4].
Dom Nau considered from where this phenomenon had developed:This is partly true, but we should not forget that liberal theology had already been advertising its reductive agenda. That is why Pius IX, even before Vatican I (1870) felt obliged to warn German theologians that divine faith's submission "must not be restricted only to those points which have been defined" (Letter to Archbishop of Munich, Dec. 21, 1863).
The naive ideas entertained by many on the question of papal infallibility after Vatican I played into the hands of the liberal theology. In fact, while the two errors are diametrically opposed, they are at one in equating papal authority and papal infallibility. What is the difference between them? The error by excess, regarding as infallible everything that comes from papal authority, stretches the pope's infallibility to the extent of his authority. The error by defect, considering only those things authorized that emanate from the ex cathedra infallibility, restricts papal authority to the scope of the infallibility of the pope's Extraordinary Magisterium. Thus both errors have the same effect, namely, to obscure the very notion of the Ordinary Magisterium and, consequently, the particular nature of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. It is essential for us to rediscover this notion and its nature because they are of the greatest importance in helping us to get our bearings in the time of crisis.
 
The Ordinary Magisterium in Shadow:
 Humanae Vitae
and Ordinatio Sacerdotalis

The lack of clear ideas on the pope's Ordinary Magisterium appeared in full with Pope Paul VI's encyclical, Humanae Vitae, and more recently with Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, in which Pope John Paul II repeated the Church's refusal to ordain women.
When Humanae Vitae came out, various theologians indicated that the notion of ordinary papal Magisterium was obscured. Generally speaking, those who supported the infallibility of Humanae Vitae deduced "the proof [of this infallibility - Ed.] on the basis of the Church's constant and universal Authentic Magisterium, which has never been abandoned and therefore was already definitive in earlier centuries." In other words, on the basis of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium (E. Lio, Humanae Vitae ed infallibilità, Libreria Ed. Vaticana, p.38). They should have noticed that even the notion of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and its particularity [its constancy and universality - Ed.] had been effaced from the minds not only of the ordinary faithful but also of the theologians. Cardinal Siri commented:The same "sophism of enumeration" was pointed out 30 years later by Msgr. Bertone, speaking against the opposition to Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. On this occasion he explicitly denounced the tendency "to substitute de facto the concept of authority for that of infallibility" (L'Osservatore Romano, Dec. 20, 1996).
In fact, it is not only the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium which has fallen into oblivion, but, since authority and infallibility have been equated, the distinction between Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the ordinary Authentic Magisterium has also been consigned to oblivion. After Vatican I, as Dom Nau wrote,Thus, we will devote ourselves, not to the Extraordinary Magisterium (whose infallibility is generally acknowledged), but to the Ordinary Magisterium. Once we have illustrated the conditions under which it is infallible, it will be clear that outside these conditions we are in the presence of the "authentic" Magisterium to which, in normal times, we should accord due consideration. In abnormal times, however, it would be a fatal error to equate this "authentic" Magisterium with the infallible Magisterium (whether "extraordinary" or "ordinary").
 
The Point of the Question
The infallible guarantee of divine assistance is not limited solely to the acts of the Solemn Magisterium; it also extends to the Ordinary Magisterium, although it does not cover and assure all the latter's acts in the same way" (Fr.Labourdette, O.P., Revue Thomiste 1950, p.38).
Thus, the assent due to the Ordinary Magisterium "can range from simple respect right up to a true act of faith." (Msgr. Guerry, La Doctrine Sociale de l'Église, Paris, Bonne Presse 1957, p.172). It is most important, therefore, to know precisely when the Roman pope's Ordinary Magisterium is endowed with the charism of infallibility.
Since the pope alone possesses the same infallibility conferred by Jesus Christ upon his Church [i.e., the pope plus the bishops in communion with him, cf. Dz.1839), we must conclude that only the pope, in his Ordinary Magisterium, is infallible in the same degree and under the same conditions as the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church is.
Thus the truth that is taught must be proposed as already defined, or as what has always been believed or accepted in the Church, or attested by the unanimous and constant agreement of theologians as being a Catholic truth [which is therefore strictly obligatory for all the faithful ("Infaillibilité du Pape," DTC vol.VII, col.1705).
This condition was recalled by Cardinal Felici in the context of Humanae Vitae:No one, in fact, can refuse to believe what has certainly been revealed by God. And it is not only those things that have been defined as such that have certainly been revealed by God; the latter also include whatever has been always and everywhere taught by the Church's Ordinary Magisterium as having been revealed by God. More recently, Msgr. Bertone reminded us that the Ordinary Pontifical Magisterium can teach a doctrine as definitive [bold emphasis in original] in virtue of the fact that it has been constantly preserved and held by Tradition.
Such is the case with Ordinatio Sacerdotalis when it repeats the invalidity of the priestly ordination of women, which has always been held by the Church with "unanimity and stability" (L'Osservatore Romano, Dec. 20, 1996).
Cardinal Siri, still speaking of Humanae Vitae in the issue of the review Renovatio to which we have referred, explains as follows:After giving a summary of the Church's continuous tradition on contraception, from the Didache to the encyclical Casti Connubii of Pope Pius XI, Cardinal Siri concludes:It is an error, therefore, to extend infallibility unconditionally to the whole of the Ordinary Magisterium of the pope, whether he is speaking urbi et orbi or just addressing pilgrims. It is true that the infallibility of the Extraordinary Magisterium is not enough for the Church; the Extraordinary Magisterium is a rare event, whereas "faith needs infallibility and it needs it every day," as Cardinal Siri himself said (Renovatio, op.cit.). But Cardinal Siri is too good a theologian to forget that even the pope's infallibility has conditions attached to it. If the Ordinary Magisterium is to be infallible, it must be traditional (cf. Salaverri, loc.cit.). If it breaks with Tradition, the Ordinary Magisterium cannot claim any infallibility. Here we see very clearly the very special nature of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium, to which we must devote some attention.
 
The Special Nature of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium
As we have seen, Cardinal Siri observes that the Humanae Vitae, even if it is not an act of the ex cathedra Magisterium, would still furnish the guarantee of infallibility, not "of itself," but insofar as it recapitulates "the ancient teaching and the habitual teaching of today" (Renovatio, ob.cit.). In fact, in contrast to the Extraordinary Magisterium or the Solemn Judgment, the Ordinary MagisteriumThis is the normal procedure by which Tradition, in the fullest sense of that term, is handed down; ...(Pope or Church? op. cit. p.10).
This is precisely why the DTC speaks of "infallible papal teaching which flows from the pope's Ordinary Magisterium" (loc.cit.). So, while a simple doctrinal presentation [by the pope] can never claim the infallibility of a definition, [this infallibility] nonetheless is rigorously implied when there is a convergence on the same subject in a series of docuмents whose continuity, in itself, excludes all possibility of doubt on the authentic content of the Roman teaching (Dom Nau, Une source doctrinale: Les encycliques, p.75).
If we fail to take account of this difference, we are obliterating all distinction between the Extraordinary Magisterium and the Ordinary Magisterium:It follows thatDom Paul Nau explains further:About this subject, A.C. Martimort wrote:In fact, we know that the bishops, individually, are not infallible. Yet the totality of bishops, throughout time and space, in their moral unanimity, do enjoy infallibility. So if one wishes to ascertain the Church's infallible teaching one must not take the teaching of one particular bishop: it is necessary to look at the "common and continuous teaching" of the episcopate united to the pope, which "cannot deviate from the teaching of Jesus Christ" (E. Piacentini, O.F.M. Conv., Infaillible même dans les causes de canonisation? ENMI, Rome 1994, p.37).
The same thing applies to the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium of the Roman pope on his own: this Ordinary Magisterium is infallible not because each act is uttered by the pope, but because the particular teaching of which the pope's act consists "is inserted into a totality and a continuity" (Dom P.Nau, Le encycliques, op.cit.), which is that of the "series of Roman popes over time" (Martimort, op.cit.).
We can understand why, in their Ordinary Magisterium, the Roman popes have always been careful to associate themselves with their "venerable predecessors," often quoting them at length. "The Church speaks by Our mouth," said Pope Pius XI in the Casti Connubii. Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis, emphasized that "most of the time what is set forth and taught in the encyclicals is already, for other reasons, part of the patrimony of Catholic doctrine."
The very particular nature of the pope's Ordinary Infallible Magisterium was quite clear until Vatican I. While this Council was in session, La Civiltà Cattolica, which published (and still publishes) under the direct control of the Holy See, replied in these words to Fr. Gratry, who had criticized Pope Paul IV's Bull cuм ex Apostolus:This means, in effect, that an "isolated act" of the pope is infallible only in the context of a "dogmatic definition"; outside dogmatic definitions, i.e., in the Ordinary Magisterium, infallibility is guaranteed by the complex of "countless other similar acts of the Holy See," or of a "long succession" of the successors of Peter.
 
Practical Application
Because it declared itself to be non-dogmatic, the charism of infallibility cannot be claimed for the last Council, except insofar as it was re-iterating traditional teaching. Moreover, what is offered as the Ordinary Pontifical Magisterium of the recent popes - apart from certain acts - cannot claim the qualification of the "Ordinary Infallible Magisterium." The pontifical docuмents on the novelties which have troubled and confused the consciences of the faithful manifest no concern whatsoever to adhere to the teaching of "venerable predecessors." They cannot adhere to them because they have broken with them. Look at the footnotes of Dominus Jesus; it's as if the Magisterium of the preceding popes did not exist. It is clear that when today's popes contradict the traditional Magisterium of yesterday's popes, our obedience is due to yesterday's popes: this is a manifest sign of a period of grave ecclesial crisis, of abnormal times in the life of the Church.
Finally, it is evident that the New Theology, which is so unscrupulous in contradicting the traditional teaching of the Roman Pontiffs, contradicts the Infallible Pontifical Magisterium; accordingly, a Catholic must in all conscience reject and actively attack it.
 
The Almost Total Eclipse of the "Authentic" Magisterium
The Church's current crisis is not at the level of the Extraordinary or Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. This would be simply impossible. Furthermore, it is not at the level of the Extraordinary Infallible Magisterium because the Council did not wish to be a dogmatic one, and because Pope Paul VI himself indicated what theological "note" it carried: "Ordinary Magisterium; that is, it is clearly authentic" (General Audience of Dec. 1, 1966: Encycliques et discours de Paul VI , Ed.Paoline,1966, pp.51,52). Lastly, it is not at the level of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. The turmoil and division in the Catholic world have been provoked by a break with this doctrinal continuity. Such a break is the very opposite of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. Thus Paul VI's Humanae Vitae, or John Paul II's intervention against women's ordination in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis caused no dismay to the Church's obedient sons.
The present crisis is at the level of what is presented as the simply "authentic" Magisterium, which, as Cardinal Siri reminds us, "does not of itself imply infallibility" (Renovatio, op.cit.). But are we really dealing with the "authentic" Magisterium?
The author of Iota Unum [available from Angelus Press. Price: $24.95] wrote:The Magisterium, however, even in its non-infallible form, should always be the teaching of the divine Word, even if uttered with a lesser degree of certitude. Nowadays, it is very often the case that "the Pope does not manifest the divine word entrusted to him," but rather "expresses his personal views" which are those of the New Theology. Here we are faced with a "manifestation of the decadence of the Church's Ordinary [`authentic'] Magisterium," a decadence which "is creating a very grave crisis for the Church, because it is the Church's central point which is suffering from it" (ibid.).
Can one really speak of the "authentic" Pontifical Magisterium, or would it be more accurate to speak of an almost total eclipse of the Authentic Pontifical Magisterium in the face of an analogous crisis at the level of the episcopal Magisterium?
 
The Danger of Being Drawn into Error
Catholic are least prepared to meet the crisis of the Authentic Pontifical Magisterium because of the confusion in their minds regarding the distinction between the pope's Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and his simply "authentic" Ordinary Magisterium. This problem was pointed out before Vatican II; it has caused and continues to cause Catholics to be drawn into error who wrongly believe that they should give equal assent to the pope's every word, neglecting the distinctions and precise conditions which we now review.
"The command to believe firmly and without examination of the matter in hand....can be truly binding only if the authority concerned is infallible" (Billot, De Ecclesia, thesis XVII). That is why a firm and unconditional assent is demanded in the case of the Infallible Magisterium (whether Extraordinary or Ordinary).
As regards those non-infallible doctrinal decisions given by the pope or by the Roman congregations, there is a strict duty of obedience which obliges us to give an internal assent ...that is prudent and habitually excludes all reasonable doubt, but this assent is legitimized [not by infallibility, but rather] by the high degree of prudence with which the ecclesiastical authority habitually acts in such circuмstances" (entry "Église" in DTC, vol.IV, co1.2209).
This is why we owe the "authentic" Magisterium not a blind and unconditional assent but a prudent and conditional one:Unfortunately, all these truths have disappeared from Catholic consciousness, just as the notion of the "authentic" Magisterium has. The Catholic world is all the more in danger of being drawn into error, since it nourishes the naive and erroneous conviction that God has never permitted the popes to be mistaken, even in the Ordinary Magisterium (and here no distinctions are drawn), and so imagine that the same assent should always be given to the papal Magisterium - which in no way corresponds to the Church's teaching.
 
Infallibility and the "Grace of State"
Our discussion of the "grace of state" of the sovereign pontiff proceeds in the context of the Authentic Magisterium. When the pope engages his infallibility, he enjoys a divine assistance that is entirely special, over and above the grace of state. Nonetheless, even infallibility does not reduce him to the level of an automaton. In fact:
The Divine assistance does not relieve the bearer of the infallible doctrinal power of the obligation of taking pains to know the truth, especially by means of the study of the sources of Revelation (Dz 1836).
That is why, in his Infallible Magisterium, the pope enjoys: 1) the positive assistance of the Holy Spirit so that he can attain the truth, and 2) the negative assistance which preserves him from error. Ultimately, in a case where a pope, by negligence or ill will, were to fail in his duty of seeking out the truth by the appropriate means, infallibility guarantees that God, through a purely negative assistance, would prevent the proclamation ex cathedra of an error.
This guarantee does not exist in the case of the Authentic Magisterium because it does not enjoy the charism of infallibility. That is why everything is entrusted to the grace of state alone, which impels the pope to act with that "high degree of prudence" which, normally, shines forth from the Authentic Magisterium of the successors of Peter. If, however, a pope were to fail to attain this, no divine promise guarantees God will intervene and stop him.
In such a case, indeed, the Catholic world would run the risk of being drawn into error. But it would not be because the pope lacked infallibility; under the due conditions, he would enjoy infallibility just like his predecessors. Nor would it be because he was deprived of the grace of state, but rather that he had not laid hold of that grace. The risk of this is all the greater since the principles we are here setting forth have fallen into oblivion.
When the Catholic world had a clear grasp of these principles the danger of being drawn into error was far less. In the history of the Church, we find it was the justified resistance of cardinals, Catholic universities, Catholic princes, religious, and simple faithful which blocked the faux pas of a number of popes, such as Popes John XXII and Sixtus V, concerning whom St. Robert Bellarmine wrote to Clement VIII:
Your Holiness knows the danger to which Sixtus V exposed himself and all the Church, when he undertook to correct Holy Scripture according to the lights of his own personal knowledge. Truly, I do not know whether the Church has ever been subject to a more grave danger (entry "Jésuites: travaux sur les Saintes Écritures" in F. Vigouroux, Dictionnaire de la Bible, vol.III, cols.1407-1408).
This danger was identified and rejected by the Catholic world. In reality, those who attribute infallibility always to the pope are doing a service neither to themselves, nor to the Church, nor to the pope himself, as the present times are plainly showing us. A pope's faux pas are a severe trial for the entire Catholic world.
 
Normal Times and Abnormal Times
In normal times the faithful can rely on the "authentic" Pontifical Magisterium with the same confidence with which they rely on the Infallible Magisterium. In normal times, it would be a very grave error to fail to take due account of even the simply "authentic" Magisterium of the Roman pope. This is because if everyone were permitted, in the presence of an act of the teaching authority, to suspend his assent or even to doubt or positively reject it on the grounds that it did not imply an infallible definition, it would result in the ecclesiastical Magisterium becoming practically illusory in concrete terms, because the ecclesiastical Magisterium is only relatively rarely expressed in definitions of this kind (DTC, vol.III, col.1110).
It must not be forgotten (as it has been forgotten nowadays) that the security of the Authentic Magisterium is not linked to infallibility, but to the "high degree of prudence" with which the successors of Peter "habitually" proceed, and to the "habitual" care they take never to swerve from the explicit and tacit teaching of their predecessors. Once this prudence and care are missing, we are no longer in normal times. In such a situation it would be a fatal error to equate the Authentic Magisterium of the Roman pontiff with his Infallible Magisterium (Ordinary or Extraordinary). These abnormal times are rare, thanks be to God, but they are not impossible. If we are not to be drawn into error, we urgently need to remember that the assent due to the non-infallible Magisterium isDom Nau makes it clear that this prudential assent does not apply in the case of a teaching that is "already traditional," which would belong to the sphere of the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium. However, in the case of a teaching which is not "already traditional," the reservation which interests us does apply: "unless the doctrine rejected...involved a manifest discordance between the pontifical affirmation and the doctrine which had hitherto been taught." Such a situation would legitimize the doctrine's rejection and would imply no "mark of temerity." Is this kind of "discordance" an impossible hypothesis? Dom Nau, whose attachment to the papacy was without doubt, wrote:In such a case, refusing one's assent does not only not manifest temerity: it is a positive duty. The "discordance" with "doctrine which had hitherto been taught" dispenses the Catholic from all obligation to obedience on this point:In the case we are examining, evidence of error is provided where an act of the Authentic Magisterium is discordant with the Extraordinary or Ordinary Infallible Magisterium, i.e., discordant with the traditional doctrine, to which the Catholic conscience is bound for eternity.
 
Faith Does Not Require the Abdication of Logic
In conclusion we shall excerpt the text of a theologian, whose passing is much to be regretted, who had a very clear grasp of the doctrine we are recalling here, and who knew well that it had been brought into confusion by the New Theologians. In arguing against Joseph KIeiner on the manifest contradiction between Pope Pius VI's Auctorem Fidei, which condemns concelebration, and Pope Paul VI's Instructio, which encourages it, Fr. Joseph de SainteMarie, O.C.D., wrote:The facts are there. They cannot be denied. We have given an example of them, and others could be given. It will suffice to recall...the Institutio Generalis which introduces the Novus Ordo Missae, particularly its celebrated Article 7. There the dogmas of the Eucharist and the priesthood were presented in such ambiguous terms, and so obviously orientated towards Protestantism - to say no more - that they had to be rectified. This Institutio, however, constituted an "intervention by the Magisterium." Should it be accepted on that account, when it was going in a direction manifestly contrary to that of the Council of Trent, in which the Church had engaged her infallibility? If we were to follow the approach urged by Joseph Kleiner and so many others, the answer would be: "Yes." But to do this we would have to swallow the contradiction by denying that there is a contradiction - which is in itself contradictory. This would be a real abdication of the intellect, and it would leave us defenseless in the face of a principle of authority that would be totally outside the control of truth. Such an attitude is not in conformity with what the Magisterium itself requires of the faithful....Faith demands the submission of the intellect in the face of the Mystery that transcends it, not its abdication when confronted with the demands of intellectual coherence which pertain to its sphere of competence; judgment is a virtue of the intellect. That is why, when a contradiction is evident, as in the two cases we have just cited, the believer's duty (and, even more, the duty of the theologian) is to address the Magisterium and ask for the said contradiction to be removed (L’Eucharistie, salut du monde, Paris , ed.du Cèdre, 1981, p.56ff).
To this, nothing need be added, except perhaps to invite readers to pray the Divine Pity, through the intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, to remove, as soon as possible, this exceedingly severe trial from the Catholic world. - Hirpinus


This article was translated by Graham hαɾɾιson for Angelus Press, edited and abridged by Fr. Kenneth Novak. For a more all-encompassing study, see Pope or Church? Essays on the Infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium (65pp.), available from Angelus Press. Price: $7.95.
 


Sounds like typical Gallicanism to me.


This part really is detestable: 

Quote
"The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility".


Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on January 01, 2024, 05:29:25 AM
I’ll leave this here for the Gallicans on the forum, many of whom “claim” great esteem for Pope Saint Pius X:



“When one loves the pope one does not stop to debate about what he advises or demands, to ask how far the rigorous duty of obedience extends and to mark the limit of this obligation.  When one loves the pope, one does not object that he has not spoken clearly enough, as if he were obliged to repeat into the ear of each individual his will, so often clearly expressed, not only viva voce, but also by letters and other public docuмents; one does not call his orders into doubt on the pretext – easily advanced by whoever does not wish to obey - that they emanate not directly from him, but from his entourage; one does not limit the field in which he can and should exercise his will; one does not oppose to the authority of the pope that of other persons, however learned, who differ in opinion from the pope.  Besides, however great their knowledge, their holiness is wanting, for there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope.”

St Pius X, to the priests of the Apostolic Union, 18 th November 1912,  AAS 1912, p. 695.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Plenus Venter on January 01, 2024, 05:36:40 AM

Sounds like typical Gallicanism to me.


This part really is detestable:
Rather a gratuitous criticism Quo vadis, if not outright calumny. Would you care to offer any support for your wild assertion?
The support for Fr le Floch's statement is contained in the article itself, and it is not difficult to understand the meaning if you read the article.
Imagine a Gallican as the Rector of a major Roman seminary, immediately after the definition of Papal Infallibility, and right under the nose of Pope St Pius X for the entirety of his pontificate when he was so much on his guard against the enemy in teaching positions in the Church.
Fr Le Floch was Rector of the French Seminary in Rome from 1904-1927. Here are some of Archbishop Lefebvre's recollections:

https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/The-Infiltration-of-Modernism-in-the-Church.htm
This is already what Pope St. Pius X said in his first encyclical when he wrote: “Henceforth the enemy of the church is no longer outside the church, he is now within." And the Pope did not hesitate to designate those places where he was to be found: "The enemy is found in the seminaries." Consequently, the holy Pope St. Pius X already denounced the presence of the enemies of the Church in the seminaries at the beginning of the century.
Obviously the seminarians of the time, who where imbued with modernism, sillonism and progressivism, later became priests. Some of them even became Bishops and among them were even some Cardinals. One could quote the names of those who were seminarians at the beginning of the century and who are now dead but whose spirit was clearly modernist and progressivist.
Thus already Pope St. Pius X denounced this division in the Church, which was to be the beginning of a very real rupture within the Church and within the clergy.
I am no longer young. During my whole life as a seminarian, as a priest and as a Bishop I have seen this division. I saw it already at the French seminary at Rome where by the grace of God I was able to study. I must admit that I was not very keen to do my studies in Rome. I would personally have preferred to study with the seminarians of my diocese in the Lille Seminary and to become an assistant vicar, and finally a parish priest in a small country parish.
I longed simply to maintain the Faith in a parish. I saw myself somewhat as the spiritual father of a population to which I was sent to teach the Catholic Faith and morals. But it happened otherwise. After the First World War my brother was already at Rome, for he had been separated from the family by the circuмstances of the war in the north of France. Consequently my parents insisted that I go to be with him. "Since your brother is already at Rome, at the French seminary, go and join him so as to continue your studies with him." Thus I left for Rome. I studied at the Gregorian University from 1923 to 1930. I was ordained in 1929 and I remained as a priest at the seminary during one year.
During my Seminary years tragic events took place, which now remind me of exactly what I lived through during the Council. I am now in practically the same situation as our Seminary Rector at the time. Fr. Le Floch. When I was there he had already been Rector of the French Seminary at Rome for thirty years. From Brittany, he was a very outstanding man and as strong and firm in the Faith as Brittany granite. He taught us the Papal encyclicals and the exact nature of the Modernism condemned by St. Pius X, the modern errors condemned by Leo XIII and the liberalism condemned by Pius IX. We liked our Fr. Le Floch very much. We were very attached to him.
But his firmness in doctrine and in Tradition obviously displeased the progressive wing. Progressive Catholics already existed at that time. The Popes had to condemn them.
Not only did Fr. Le Floch displease the progressives, but he also displeased the French government. The French government feared that by the intermediary of Fr. Le Floch and by that formation, which was given to the seminarians at the French Seminary in Rome traditional Bishops, would come to France and would give to the Church in France a traditional and clearly anti-liberal direction.
For the French government was Masonic and consequently profoundly liberal and frightened at the thought that non-liberal Bishops could take over the most important posts. Pressure was consequently exerted on the Pope so as to eliminate Fr. Le Floch. It was Francisque gαy, the future leader of the M.R.P., who was in charge of this operation. He came to Rome to exert pressure on Pope Pius XI, denouncing Fr. Le Floch as being, so he said, a member of.’Action Franaise" and a politician who taught his seminarians to also be members of "Action Franaise.’
This was all nothing but a lie. For three years I heard Fr. Le Floch in his spiritual conferences. Never did he speak to us of "Action Franaise." Likewise people now say to me: "You were formerly a member of Action Franaise.’”  I have never been a member of "Action Franaise."
Clearly we were accused of being members of "Action Franaise," nαzιs and fascists and every other pejorative label because we were anti-revolutionary and anti-liberal.
Thus an inquiry was made. The Cardinal Archbishop of Milan (Card. Schuster) was sent to the seminary. He wasn't the least of the Cardinals. He was in fact a Benedictine of great holiness and intelligence. He had been designated by Pope Pius XI to make the inquiry at the French Seminary so as to determine if the accusations of Francisque gαy were true or not. The inquiry took place. The result was: the French Seminary functions perfectly well under the direction of Fr. Le Floch. We have absolutely nothing to reproach the Seminary Rector with. But this did not suffice.
Three months later a new inquiry was begun, this time with the order to do away with Fr. Le Floch. The new inquiry was made by a member of a Roman Congregation. He concluded, in effect, that Fr. Le Floch was a friend of "Action Franaise," that he was dangerous for the Seminary and that he had to be asked to resign. This is just what happened.
In 1926 the Holy See requested Fr. Le Floch to kindly abandon his post as Rector of the French Seminary. He was overwhelmed with sorrow. Fr. Le Floch had never been a politician. He was traditional, attached to the doctrines of the Church and the Popes. In addition he had been a great friend of Pope St. Pius X, who had had great confidence in him. It was precisely because he was a friend of St. Pius X that he was the enemy of the progressive wing.
It was at the same time that I was at the French Seminary that Cardinal Billot was also attacked. He was a first class theologian at the time and remains today well known and studied in our Seminaries. Monseigneur Billot, Cardinal of the Holy Church, was deposed. The purple was taken away from him and he was sent away in penance to Castelgandolfo, quite close to Albano, where the Jesuits have a house. He was forbidden to leave under pretext of having connections with "Action Franaise."
In fact Cardinal Billot never belonged to "Action Franaise." He did, however, hold Naurras in high esteem and had cited him in his theology books. In the second volume concerning the Church (De Ecclesia), for example, Cardinal Billot accomplished a magnificent study of liberalism where he took, in the form of notes, several quotations from Maurras. This was a mortal sin! This was all they could find to depose Cardinal Billot. It is not a minor tragedy, for he was one of the great theologians of his time and yet he was deposed as a Cardinal and reduced to the state of a simple priest, for he was not a Bishop. (At that time there were still some Cardinal deacons.) It was already the persecution.

You might also read this article on the French Seminary here which describes it as exactly the opposite of what you want to believe, as being Ultramontanist: http://www.30giorni.it/articoli_id_23243_l3.htm:

Administered from its foundation by the fathers of the Congregation of the Holy Spirit as a bulwark of papal authority, it was one of the most significant outposts of ultramontanism, the current in nineteenth-century French Catholicism that “looked over the mountains”, i.e. at the Pope as the sole and undisputed authority within the Church. In opposition to neo-gallicanism, which instead defended the particularity of the traditions of the French Church, especially in the liturgical sphere, and whose representatives were active in Rome at the Church of San Luigi dei Francesi.
 Pope Pius IX immediately showed great interest in the French Seminary. So much so that on 14 July 1859, with the bull In sublimi Principis, he ratified canonical approval and engaged to be “protector forever”. The apparitions of Mary in the grotto of Lourdes to Bernadette Soubirous in 1858 strengthened the bond.
A few years later, between 1868 and 1870, the house on Via di Santa Chiara was to lodge some fifty guests, including bishops and theologians, come for Vatican I. All of them took a stance in favor of papal infallibility, the central theme of the Council. In opposition to the faction against infallibility, barricaded elsewhere, in Palazzo Rospigliosi and Palazzo Grazioli.
On 20 June 1902 the Seminary was given the title of “Pontifical” by Pope Leo XIII. In that period Father Henri Le Floch arrived in Rome as rector. Out of his ultra-conservative beliefs...
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Plenus Venter on January 01, 2024, 05:45:38 AM
I’ll leave this here for the Gallicans on the forum, many of whom “claim” great esteem for Pope Saint Pius X:



“When one loves the pope one does not stop to debate about what he advises or demands, to ask how far the rigorous duty of obedience extends and to mark the limit of this obligation.  When one loves the pope, one does not object that he has not spoken clearly enough, as if he were obliged to repeat into the ear of each individual his will, so often clearly expressed, not only viva voce, but also by letters and other public docuмents; one does not call his orders into doubt on the pretext – easily advanced by whoever does not wish to obey - that they emanate not directly from him, but from his entourage; one does not limit the field in which he can and should exercise his will; one does not oppose to the authority of the pope that of other persons, however learned, who differ in opinion from the pope.  Besides, however great their knowledge, their holiness is wanting, for there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope.”

St Pius X, to the priests of the Apostolic Union, 18 th November 1912,  AAS 1912, p. 695.
A total perversion of the meaning of Fr le Floch's statement. This is precisely the attitude that has led to the crisis in the Church, turning off one's intellect and turning the person of the Pope from being the vicar of Christ to Christ Himself. You entirely misunderstand the meaning of the words of this Saint Pope as well as the words of Fr le Floch.

This is the behaviour of modernists to use labels to discredit opponents for whom they have no answer in the hope of bringing down upon them instant derision and condemnation.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on January 01, 2024, 05:52:56 AM
Rather a gratuitous criticism Quo vadis, if not outright calumny. Would you care to offer any support for your wild assertion?
The support for Fr le Floch's statement is contained in the article itself, and it is not difficult to understand the meaning if you read the article.
Imagine a Gallican as the Rector of a major Roman seminary, immediately after the definition of Papal Infallibility, and right under the nose of Pope St Pius X for the entirety of his pontificate when he was so much on his guard against the enemy in teaching positions in the Church.
Fr Le Floch was Rector of the French Seminary in Rome from 1904-1927. Here are some of Archbishop Lefebvre's recollections:




1) Please reconcile what you posted with what I posted from Saint Pius X. Maybe Fr. le Floch’s writings were the impetus for what Saint Pius X wrote. ;)

“When one loves the pope one does not stop to debate about what he advises or demands, to ask how far the rigorous duty of obedience extends and to mark the limit of this obligation.  When one loves the pope, one does not object that he has not spoken clearly enough, as if he were obliged to repeat into the ear of each individual his will, so often clearly expressed, not only viva voce, but also by letters and other public docuмents; one does not call his orders into doubt on the pretext – easily advanced by whoever does not wish to obey - that they emanate not directly from him, but from his entourage; one does not limit the field in which he can and should exercise his will; one does not oppose to the authority of the pope that of other persons, however learned, who differ in opinion from the pope.  Besides, however great their knowledge, their holiness is wanting, for there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope.” 

St Pius X, to the priests of the Apostolic Union, 18 th November 1912,  AAS 1912, p. 695.


2) The Gallican quote you posted doesn’t seem to be in the article.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on January 01, 2024, 05:55:15 AM
A total perversion of the meaning of Fr le Floch's statement. This is precisely the attitude that has led to the crisis in the Church, turning off one's intellect and turning the person of the Pope from being the vicar of Christ to Christ Himself. You entirely misunderstand the meaning of the words of this Saint Pope as well as the words of Fr le Floch.

This is the behaviour of modernists to use labels to discredit opponents for whom they have no answer in the hope of bringing down upon them instant derision and condemnation.


The Gallican calling a Catholic who’s obedient to and loves the Papacy, a modernist! :laugh1: That is truly rich! :laugh2:
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on January 01, 2024, 05:59:45 AM
A total perversion of the meaning of Fr le Floch's statement. This is precisely the attitude that has led to the crisis in the Church, turning off one's intellect and turning the person of the Pope from being the vicar of Christ to Christ Himself. You entirely misunderstand the meaning of the words of this Saint Pope as well as the words of Fr le Floch.

Oh yes, I misunderstood this:

"The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility".

Gallican trash! (the quote, not you)

Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Stubborn on January 01, 2024, 11:42:32 AM
Fr. Le Floch, superior of the French Seminary in Rome, announced in 1926

Quote
"The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility".
PV,
Would you agree that the below teaching from Fr. Joseph Clifford Fenton in 1949 which Lad has posted numerous times, is a prime example of the above quote from Fr. Le Floch?

"In this field, God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth".
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Ladislaus on January 01, 2024, 02:44:25 PM

Gallican trash! (the quote, not you)

Yep.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on January 01, 2024, 02:47:38 PM

PV,
Would you agree that the below teaching from Fr. Joseph Clifford Fenton in 1949 which Lad has posted numerous times, is a prime example of the above quote from Fr. Le Floch?

"In this field, God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth".

Stubborn, you can’t be for real!? The two are totally opposed to one another. Are you that blinded? Wait! I’m sure PV, the Gallican, will make the connection.:facepalm:
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on January 01, 2024, 03:18:15 PM
Quote from: Plenus Venter on Yesterday at 10:31:17 PM (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/the-pope's-infallible-magisterium/msg920252/#msg920252)
Quote
Quote Fr. Le Floch, superior of the French Seminary in Rome, announced in 1926

Quote

Quote
"The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility".


I’ve been searching for a reference for this quote and the only source I found is the SSPX: 
https://sspx.org/en/clear-ideas-popes-infallible-magisterium

Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on January 01, 2024, 03:48:11 PM

I traced the quote to this article in the Remnant:  

https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/3110-the-lefebvre-files


The article has the quote and this footnote:

"The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the Pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility."

These words were spoken by Fr. Henri LeFloch, Superior of the French Seminary in Rome in 1926(1).

1."Clear Ideas on the Pope's Infallible Magisterium", from SiSiNoNo, the Angelus English language article reprint, January 2002, extracted from The Infalliblity of the Church's Magisterium by Rev Canon Rene' Berthod, available at SSPX.org


I looked up the SiSiNoNo article and the quote is not there: 

https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/2002_January/Popes_Infallible_Magisterium.htm


I see that the reference mentions the book “The Infalliblity of the Church's Magisterium” by Rev Canon Rene' Berthod

I don’t have the book, but I might buy it to see if the reference is credible.






Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: 2Vermont on January 01, 2024, 03:52:42 PM
I traced the quote to this article in the Remnant: 

https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/3110-the-lefebvre-files


The article has the quote and this footnote:

"The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the Pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility."

These words were spoken by Fr. Henri LeFloch, Superior of the French Seminary in Rome in 1926(1).

1."Clear Ideas on the Pope's Infallible Magisterium", from SiSiNoNo, the Angelus English language article reprint, January 2002, extracted from The Infalliblity of the Church's Magisterium by Rev Canon Rene' Berthod, available at SSPX.org


I looked up the SiSiNoNo article and the quote is not there:

https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/2002_January/Popes_Infallible_Magisterium.htm


I see that the reference mentions the book “The Infalliblity of the Church's Magisterium” by Rev Canon Rene' Berthod

I don’t have the book, but I might buy it to see if the reference is credible.
This sure would be.....ironic. 
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Plenus Venter on January 01, 2024, 09:20:37 PM

PV,
Would you agree that the below teaching from Fr. Joseph Clifford Fenton in 1949 which Lad has posted numerous times, is a prime example of the above quote from Fr. Le Floch?

"In this field, God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth".
Fr Pivert said this in his study defending Archbishop Lefebvre's 1988 episcopal consecrations:
"We cannot deny the fact that the crisis of the Church is a well-determined, new, and grave case, for which no explicit provision can be found in Canon Law... a situation which lies outside the scope of all the ordinary rules of Canon Law..."
What he says here specifically about Canon Law, I think we can apply in a much broader sense, even to theological speculation, even to what Fr Fenton says in your quote.
In normal times, what he says makes sense, but who dreamed the 'passion' of the Church would look like this, and may yet look a whole lot worse, whether you want to believe we have a pope or not.
This is where even Archbishop Lefebvre hesitated when confronted with a Pope calling all the false religions of the world into the Catholic sanctuary to pray to their devils.
It appears to me that the doctrine of the Church, as laid down by Vatican I and Tradition, in the context of this crisis, is better explained in the article in the OP and by Dom Paul Nau and Canon Berthod in the book referenced that by this quote. Would Fr Fenton write the same today? It's a little like asking if ABL would be a sedevacantist today!

Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Plenus Venter on January 01, 2024, 09:23:40 PM
Oh yes, I misunderstood this:

"The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility".

Gallican trash! (the quote, not you)


Perhaps, QV, if you look at it as applied to the attitude of the sincere Catholics in the Conciliar Church it may be more understandable to you. But in any case, let's not argue over that, I will be happy if you just consider the doctrine put forward by Dom Paul Nau in 1956.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Plenus Venter on January 01, 2024, 09:32:49 PM
Stubborn, you can’t be for real!? The two are totally opposed to one another. Are you that blinded? Wait! I’m sure PV, the Gallican, will make the connection.:facepalm:
That is exactly what Stubborn was meaning, QV, of course they are opposed. He's asking if I believe that this opinion expressed by Fr Fenton is what Fr le Floch was fearing in terms of the exaggeration of Papal Infallibility.

I'm an ultramontanist like you, not a Gallican. Read the OP and the book.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Plenus Venter on January 01, 2024, 09:35:48 PM
I traced the quote to this article in the Remnant: 

https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/3110-the-lefebvre-files


The article has the quote and this footnote:

"The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the Pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility."

These words were spoken by Fr. Henri LeFloch, Superior of the French Seminary in Rome in 1926(1).

1."Clear Ideas on the Pope's Infallible Magisterium", from SiSiNoNo, the Angelus English language article reprint, January 2002, extracted from The Infalliblity of the Church's Magisterium by Rev Canon Rene' Berthod, available at SSPX.org


I looked up the SiSiNoNo article and the quote is not there:

https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/2002_January/Popes_Infallible_Magisterium.htm


I see that the reference mentions the book “The Infalliblity of the Church's Magisterium” by Rev Canon Rene' Berthod

I don’t have the book, but I might buy it to see if the reference is credible.
No, I don't think you will find that reference in the book, I don't see it anywhere. I'm not sure why MM referenced it like that. But if you are convinced by the book, you won't any longer have a problem with the quote - in fact I am guessing it will become one of your favourites... but only if you read the book!
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Plenus Venter on January 01, 2024, 09:36:58 PM
Yep.
The Hungarians never did understand the French!
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: roscoe on January 01, 2024, 10:29:22 PM
" I am the Church"--- Pope Pius IX to Gialumberti(sp?). See Fr Cuthbert Butler's History Of The Vatican Council :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Stubborn on January 02, 2024, 05:15:17 AM
Fr Pivert said this in his study defending Archbishop Lefebvre's 1988 episcopal consecrations:
"We cannot deny the fact that the crisis of the Church is a well-determined, new, and grave case, for which no explicit provision can be found in Canon Law... a situation which lies outside the scope of all the ordinary rules of Canon Law..."
What he says here specifically about Canon Law, I think we can apply in a much broader sense, even to theological speculation, even to what Fr Fenton says in your quote.
In normal times, what he says makes sense, but who dreamed the 'passion' of the Church would look like this, and may yet look a whole lot worse, whether you want to believe we have a pope or not.
This is where even Archbishop Lefebvre hesitated when confronted with a Pope calling all the false religions of the world into the Catholic sanctuary to pray to their devils.
It appears to me that the doctrine of the Church, as laid down by Vatican I and Tradition, in the context of this crisis, is better explained in the article in the OP and by Dom Paul Nau and Canon Berthod in the book referenced that by this quote. Would Fr Fenton write the same today? It's a little like asking if ABL would be a sedevacantist today!
Good post and yes, the OP better explains but the sedes cannot accept that explanation for fear of putting their sedeism in jeopardy.

I think Fr. Fenton's idea should have been condemned and corrected, but as you say, at the time he made sense because popes were reliable shepherds, even tho per V1 what Fr. Fenton taught there was wrong, even in those days.

I often wondered why, as the OP mentions, so many theologians, even immediately after V1 and since, have taught essentially the same error, yet the Church never condemned or corrected them in any way. If the Church ever did, the OP did not mention it far as I could see.

What I believe is that along with NOers and sedes, all of the conciliar popes believe this error is V1's dogmatic teaching.

I mean consider that if you were pope and believed it a dogma that no matter what you did, you could never harm the Church etc., then why not a new mass pleasing to the Church's enemies, meet with heretics, kiss their Koran, and all the other heretical teachings and acts of false ecuмenism? As a pope who cannot harm the Church and whose intention is to get the most people into heaven, why not do whatever?   

With that in mind, the thing to be discarded is tradition - who needs it? Certainly not the pope, because being divinely protected in whatever he does means the main impediment is Church tradition because tradition only serves as one big source of interference, or it's nothing more than that gnat that keeps buzzing your face. In the popes' mind, if it weren't for Church traditions, imagine how easy of a time he would have to save everyone on earth. Which explains the conciliar popes' abhorrence of all things tradition.  

 Of course the sedes cling to both, the error and tradition, so they cannot fathom how popes, who believe the exact same error they do, can apply it the way the conciliar popes understand and apply it.

So instead of realizing the idea so clearly expressed from Fr. Fenton is, in light of V1, error, sedes believe the error to be dogma, and on that account popes are not popes.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Pax Vobis on January 02, 2024, 08:39:40 AM
Fr Fenton's opinion about the "infallible non-infallible" magisterium is non-sensical and wrong.  I've yet to see any historical or Traditional backing for this idea.  The Old Catholics rejected infallibility, so Fr Fenton and co swung the pendulum in the opposite direction and declared the the pope to be a walking infallibility oracle.  It's extremism, and it led directly to the 'false obedience' that made people sheepishly accept V2, and blindly accept whatever their bishops' told them.

Let's not forget that Fr Fenton was WAY OFF on EENS too.  He's not some walking example of orthodoxy.  Far from it.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Ladislaus on January 02, 2024, 11:12:38 AM
Fr Fenton's opinion about the "infallible non-infallible" magisterium is non-sensical and wrong.

While you're entitled to disagree, I object to dismissing something written by arguably-the-top theologian in the US prior to and leading up to Vatican II as "non-sensical".  It's not.  I believe that he articulated the problem extremely well.  I just think that this does not fit into the same "infallible vs. non-infallible" false dichotomy that has largely been created by R&R, and not particularly well addressed by SVs either (since many of them responded by exaggerating the scope of infallibility).
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Ladislaus on January 02, 2024, 11:14:44 AM
Let's not forget that Fr Fenton was WAY OFF on EENS too.  He's not some walking example of orthodoxy.  Far from it.

Well, I also dispute that he was WAY OFF.  He ended up doing some gymnastics to reconcile EENS with Suprema Haec, but he wasn't that far off on EENS.  He ended up holding to and promoting the requirement of explicit faith in at least the Holy Trinity and Incarnation for salvation, rejected the "soul of the Church" explanation for the salvation of non-Catholics.  He basically accepted the St. Robert Bellarmine opinion regarding BoD proper, and so it's a grave exaggeration to call him "WAY OFF" on EENS.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Stubborn on January 02, 2024, 11:23:32 AM
While you're entitled to disagree, I object to dismissing something written by arguably-the-top theologian in the US prior to and leading up to Vatican II as "non-sensical".  It's not.  I believe that he articulated the problem extremely well.  I just think that this does not fit into the same "infallible vs. non-infallible" false dichotomy that has largely been created by R&R, and not particularly well addressed by SVs either (since many of them responded by exaggerating the scope of infallibility).

He was part of the problem, still is....

The Point - May 1953 (https://fatherfeeney.wordpress.com/2009/08/22/the-point-may-1953/)

...Of these doctrinal dictators, the three outstanding are Father Francis J. Connell, C. Ss. R., Monsignor Joseph C. Fenton, and Monsignor Matthew Smith. These three priests have emerged from nowhere to set themselves up as the official and unquestioned American theologians. Not even the Pope is able to speak to American Catholics without their mediation. His pronouncements require their interpretations, which infallibly follow, in order to make them clear and to show what he was really trying to say.

The opinions and interpretations of Fathers Connell, Fenton, and Smith are disseminated by means of one journal, one university, and many newspapers. These are, respectively, The American Ecclesiastical Review, of which Fenton is the editor and Connell the associate editor; the Catholic University of America, at which Fenton was, and Connell is, Dean of the School of Theology; and the newspapers that print articles issued by the National Catholic Welfare Conference, of which Connell is the star performer, together with the Denver Register, of which Smith is the editor and featured columnist.

Properly speaking, Monsignor Smith is not a professional theologian at all, but only a journalist with a flair for theological dabbling. Connell and Fenton are really the original thinkers, issuing their proclamations from the nation’s capital. Smith is merely their parrot, the voice out of the West. His job is to see to it, by means of his newspaper, that American Catholics are informed of the opinions Connell and Fenton have decided they ought to have. However, he does his job so faithfully and so well — besides which he often adds bright touches and anecdotes of his own — that he deserves to rank with the other two.

Father Connell specializes in giving the “Catholic position” on the latest newspaper headlines. There is not a single curiosity or scandal that he fails to notice and to comment on for the edification of American Catholics. Typical of his unholy interests and faithless comments is the article he wrote last year during the “flying saucer” ruckus. Asking himself the question, how could men on other planets be redeemed, he casually elaborated a scheme of multiple Incarnations and reincarnations of the Persons of the Blessed Trinity, a scheme which turns Our Lady from Virgo Singularis into just one of the mothers of one of the Divine Persons who became man.

Monsignor Fenton likes to make it appear that he is terribly strong and intransigent on the matter of dogma, and that he is persecuted on account of this by those with more liberal ideas. However, as is plainly evident to any long-term reader of Fenton’s Ecclesiastical Review, there is no lasting difference between him and the liberals; he merely says what they say two years later.

In his interpretations of the doctrine “no salvation outside the Church,” his prize interpretations, Fenton lays down conditions for non-Catholic salvation that are so rigid and far-fetched that practically no one can meet them. (This is to show his “terrible strength.”) However, it does not bother him that those who want to go all out for getting non-Catholics into Heaven, do so using his reasons and his authority. All the liberals need is one little loophole, which Fenton gives. Through that loophole, the liberals are able, in their need, to squeeze every Protestant and Jew in America.


Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Ladislaus on January 02, 2024, 12:27:26 PM
He was part of the problem, still is....

The Point - May 1953 (https://fatherfeeney.wordpress.com/2009/08/22/the-point-may-1953/)

...Of these doctrinal dictators, the three outstanding are Father Francis J. Connell, C. Ss. R., Monsignor Joseph C. Fenton, and Monsignor Matthew Smith. These three priests have emerged from nowhere to set themselves up as the official and unquestioned American theologians. Not even the Pope is able to speak to American Catholics without their mediation. His pronouncements require their interpretations, which infallibly follow, in order to make them clear and to show what he was really trying to say.

As you know, I'm a "Feeneyite" myself, but this is not a fair treatment of Msgr. Fenton.  He himself directly contradicts this allegation:
Quote
The private theologian is obligated and privileged to study these docuмents, to arrive at an understanding of what the Holy Father actually teaches, and then to aid in the task of bringing this body of truth to the people. The Holy Father, however, not the private theologian, remains the doctrinal authority. The theologian is expected to bring out the content of the Pope’s actual teaching, not to subject that teaching to the type of criticism he would have a right to impose on the writings of another private theologian.

Thus, when we review or attempt to evaluate the works of a private theologian, we are perfectly within our rights in attempting to show that a certain portion of his doctrine is authentic Catholic teaching or at least based upon such teaching, and to assert that some other portions of that work simply express ideas current at the time the books were written. The pronouncements of the Roman Pontiffs, acting as the authorized teachers of the Catholic Church, are definitely not subject to that sort of evaluation.

Unfortunately the tendency to misinterpret the function of the private theologian in the Church’s doctrinal work is not something now in the English Catholic literature. Cardinal Newman in his Letter to the Duke of Norfolk (certainly the least valuable of his published works), supports the bizarre thesis that the final determination of what is really condemned in an authentic ecclesiastical pronouncement is the work of private theologians, rather than of the particular organ of the ecclesia docens which has actually formulated the condemnation. The faithful could, according to his theory, find what a pontifical docuмent actually means, not from the content of the docuмent itself, but from the speculations of the theologians.

Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Pax Vobis on January 02, 2024, 12:54:38 PM

Quote
While you're entitled to disagree, I object to dismissing something written by arguably-the-top theologian in the US prior to and leading up to Vatican II as "non-sensical".  It's not.  I believe that he articulated the problem extremely well.  I just think that this does not fit into the same "infallible vs. non-infallible" false dichotomy that has largely been created by R&R, and not particularly well addressed by SVs either (since many of them responded by exaggerating the scope of infallibility).
Fenton's "infallibly safe" nonsense waters down the whole notion of infallibility itself, which is meant to be a unique and sacred papal event.  At the same time, it has the danger of elevating every papal act into some sort of Divinely-inspired message, which we see was taken advantage of by V2, in their "blind obedience" mantra which brainwashed catholics of the 50s, 60s and 70s.


And yes, there is a dichotomy (not a false one) of infallible vs non-infallible, just as there exists valid vs non-valid sacraments and mortal vs venial sins.  
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Stubborn on January 02, 2024, 12:55:53 PM
As you know, I'm a "Feeneyite" myself, but this is not a fair treatment of Msgr. Fenton.  He himself directly contradicts this allegation:
He can contradict it all he wants, that doesn't change what Fr. Feeney said, or make what Fr. Feeney said wrong, or make right the idea Fr. Fenton wrote as regards popes in his quote you frequently post, because what he taught as if it's a Church teaching, is in fact contrary to the dogma on papal infallibility as decreed at V1.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Stubborn on January 02, 2024, 12:56:24 PM
Fenton's "infallibly safe" nonsense waters down the whole notion of infallibility itself, which is meant to be a unique and sacred papal event.  At the same time, it has the danger of elevating every papal act into some sort of Divinely-inspired message, which we see was taken advantage of by V2, in their "blind obedience" mantra which brainwashed catholics of the 50s, 60s and 70s.


And yes, there is a dichotomy (not a false one) of infallible vs non-infallible, just as there exists valid vs non-valid sacraments and mortal vs venial sins. 
Well said.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Ladislaus on January 02, 2024, 02:04:23 PM
In his interpretations of the doctrine “no salvation outside the Church,” his prize interpretations, Fenton lays down conditions for non-Catholic salvation that are so rigid and far-fetched that practically no one can meet them. (This is to show his “terrible strength.”) However, it does not bother him that those who want to go all out for getting non-Catholics into Heaven, do so using his reasons and his authority. All the liberals need is one little loophole, which Fenton gives. Through that loophole, the liberals are able, in their need, to squeeze every Protestant and Jew in America.

Fenton's interpretations would not allow for "every ... Jew in America" to be saved, since he holds to the necessity of explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation as necessary for salvation.  As for Prots, I don't know what he'd have to say about then, since BoD isn't actually the right topic, since many Prots are baptized.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Ladislaus on January 02, 2024, 02:11:04 PM
Fenton's "infallibly safe" nonsense waters down the whole notion of infallibility itself, which is meant to be a unique and sacred papal event.

Take a lot of hubris for an untrained armchair hack to persist in calling it "nonsense" ... when I doubt you know a lick of Latin or have even an hour of formal training in theology.  Disagree if you want (I don't), but you double down on your arrogance in calling it nonsense.

And this "unique and sacred papal event" crap is the biggest load of trash I've seen posted here in a long time.  What does that even mean?  It's hogwash and has no theological meaning whatsoever.  But, based on my reading of what you mean, it makes it clear that you have no comprehension even of what Fenton is saying, much less are you qualified to deride it as "nonsense" from your armchair.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Ladislaus on January 02, 2024, 02:19:58 PM
He can contradict it all he wants, that doesn't change what Fr. Feeney said, or make what Fr. Feeney said wrong, or make right the idea Fr. Fenton wrote as regards popes in his quote you frequently post, because what he taught as if it's a Church teaching, is in fact contrary to the dogma on papal infallibility as decreed at V1.

We were addressing the allegation made by Father Feeney's publication that Msgr. Fenton presented papal teaching as needing to be interpreted by his theological authority.  He said exactly the opposite.

You persist with your low-grade-moron-level assertions that holding to different types of infallibilities "contradicts" Vatican I.  I don't know how much longer I can suffer such stupidity.  Theologians almost universally believed in the infallibility of the Church's Universal Discipline, including the Mass, Canon Law, and canonizations ... long after Vatican I.  Vatican I did not negatively defined that the infallibility of solemn teachings was the ONLY type of infallibility enjoyed by the Church.

Nor do you untrained uneducated dunderheads understand the notion of "infallible safety".  It's nothing more than an articulation of the overall indefectibility of the Papal Magisterium, basically a denunciation of your heresies, which is why you are so prickled by it.  While no given papal teaching that does not meet the notes of infallibility defined at Vatican I is absolutely guaranteed to be free from error, a substantial body of papal teaching cannot be in error.  It's actually what you clowns keep calling "Tradition", and which is why we can rely on the teachings of Pius IX, Gregory XVI, St. Pius X that were not strictly infallible to be generally reliable.  It's due to the Holy Ghost protection over the papal Magisterium, which +Lefebvre affirmed and which you bad-willed idiots refuse to address, since you'd have to reject and refute the opinion of Archbishop Lefebvre.  You're putting the focus on Fenton but ignored the elephant in the room ... namely, that +Lefebvre held the same thing.  But you're too chicken-shit to contradict +Lefebvre and so you ignore those statements, pretend they don't exist, and then change the subject while putting the focus on Fenton.

If there's anything worse than heresy, it's heresy combined with sheer stupdity.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Pax Vobis on January 02, 2024, 02:30:43 PM

Quote
Nor do you untrained uneducated dunderheads understand the notion of "infallible safety".  It's nothing more than an articulation of the overall indefectibility of the Papal Magisterium
No, what Fenton was promoting (either knowingly or unknowingly) is the erroneous expansion of the papal magisterium, without which, V2 errors would’ve never been swallowed.  


V1 defined the extraordinary magisterium as infallible.  Fenton was pushing the idea of most non-extraordinary acts as infallible too.  This is going too far beyond V1, imo.   

There are certainly many non-extraordinary acts which are infallible.  But not to the extent that Fenton (and others) promoted.  
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Stubborn on January 02, 2024, 02:34:00 PM
We were addressing the allegation made by Father Feeney's publication that Msgr. Fenton presented papal teaching as needing to be interpreted by his theological authority.  He said exactly the opposite.

You persist with your low-grade-moron-level assertions that holding to different types of infallibilities "contradicts" Vatican I.  I don't know how much longer I can suffer such stupidity.  Theologians almost universally believed in the infallibility of the Church's Universal Discipline, including the Mass, Canon Law, and canonizations ... long after Vatican I.  Vatican I did not negatively defined that the infallibility of solemn teachings was the ONLY type of infallibility enjoyed by the Church.

Nor do you untrained uneducated dunderheads understand the notion of "infallible safety".  It's nothing more than an articulation of the overall indefectibility of the Papal Magisterium, basically a denunciation of your heresies, which is why you are so prickled by it.  While no given papal teaching that does not meet the notes of infallibility defined at Vatican I is absolutely guaranteed to be free from error, a substantial body of papal teaching cannot be in error.  It's actually what you clowns keep calling "Tradition", and which is why we can rely on the teachings of Pius IX, Gregory XVI, St. Pius X that were not strictly infallible to be generally reliable.  It's due to the Holy Ghost protection over the papal Magisterium, which +Lefebvre affirmed and which you bad-willed idiots refuse to address, since you'd have to reject and refute the opinion of Archbishop Lefebvre.  You're putting the focus on Fenton but ignored the elephant in the room ... namely, that +Lefebvre held the same thing.  But you're too chicken-shit to contradict +Lefebvre and so you ignore those statements, pretend they don't exist, and then change the subject while putting the focus on Fenton.

If there's anything worse than heresy, it's heresy combined with sheer stupdity.
Just admit it, your "arguably-the-top theologian in the US prior to and leading up to Vatican II" was and still is part of the problem. It's educated eggheads like you that helped get us - and are helping to keep us in this mess.

V1 infallibly defines in very clear, very concise terms that any elementary student can understand, exactly when it is that the pope is infallible. Fr. Fenton teaches that popes cannot teach error. Yet you see no difference. You call me untrained, what the heck kind of training were you put through that you see no difference? Get your money back.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Pax Vobis on January 02, 2024, 02:50:40 PM
:facepalm:  Mention the 'magisterium' and Ladislaus gets unhinged and emotional, just like Sean with BOD.  But i'll carry on, anyways.


Quote
Nor do you untrained uneducated dunderheads understand the notion of "infallible safety".  It's nothing more than an articulation of the overall indefectibility of the Papal Magisterium, basically a denunciation of your heresies, which is why you are so prickled by it. 
The problem is 'papal magisterium' is too general of a term.  The last 100 years has muddied the waters on what is/isn't the 'magisterium'.  At least be honest and admit that different theologians use the same terms with different meanings.  The term 'magisterium' has been destroyed and is as meaningless as 'conservative', because it means too many things.



Quote
While no given papal teaching that does not meet the notes of infallibility defined at Vatican I is absolutely guaranteed to be free from error, a substantial body of papal teaching cannot be in error. 

I agree with this in theory, but again, who can agree on what is/isn't 'papal teaching'?  


Quote
It's actually what you clowns keep calling "Tradition", and which is why we can rely on the teachings of Pius IX, Gregory XVI, St. Pius X that were not strictly infallible to be generally reliable.  It's due to the Holy Ghost protection over the papal Magisterium, which +Lefebvre affirmed and which you bad-willed idiots refuse to address, since you'd have to reject and refute the opinion of Archbishop Lefebvre.  You're putting the focus on Fenton but ignored the elephant in the room ... namely, that +Lefebvre held the same thing.  But you're too chicken-shit to contradict +Lefebvre and so you ignore those statements, pretend they don't exist, and then change the subject while putting the focus on Fenton.
Excuse me if I can't 100% trust either Fenton, or ABL or Williamson, etc ... all of whom were wrong on EENS.  And ABL/Williamson's theology on the new mass is wrong too.  Don't call something 'hubris' when it's actually 'hesitancy to trust'.  I reserve the right to question most things until sanity in the Church returns.  If ABL says something, i'm going to study/reflect on it but i'm not going to blindly take his word on it.  French seminaries where ABL studied were infiltrated long before he joined the seminary, just like Fenton's american seminaries were liberalized too.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Pax Vobis on January 02, 2024, 03:05:42 PM

Quote
It's actually what you clowns keep calling "Tradition", and which is why we can rely on the teachings of Pius IX, Gregory XVI, St. Pius X that were not strictly infallible to be generally reliable.
I call BS on this.  If Fenton had meant Tradition, he should have simply used the word, since everyone knows what it means.  Instead, he used a word-salad to imply things beyond both Tradition and the extraordinary magisterium, which is simply a theological opinion.  
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Pax Vobis on January 02, 2024, 04:14:24 PM
Quote
"In this field, God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth".
Fenton talks about commands/directives given to the "universal church", in the areas of discipline and doctrine.  He could be talking about Tradition; but it goes further in scope that this.

Either way, the key words phrases here are "given to the entire kingdom of God on earth" and "universal Church".  This necessarily implies that the pope's directives that Fenton is talking about are commanded/binding on the entire church, under pain of sin.  Even if the pope isn't defining a doctrine, he can still use his apostolic authority to bind the whole Church to some directive, related to either Tradition, the liturgy, or some doctrinal interpretation.

I have no problem with this.

What I have a problem with is either the Sedes/liberals expanding infallibility beyond a "universal directive".  If the pope writes an encyclical but doesn't bind the whole church, then he isn't using his Apostolic authority, and thus, he's not "teaching" in the formal sense.  Thus, this encyclical (assuming it's related to doctrine/morals and not something like 'climate change') is not "infallibly safe" and is capable of erring.  Because the Holy Ghost/infallibility is not engaged when a pope is speaking/reading/writing as a bishop.  Only when he is "teaching" (in a formal manner) the "entire universal church" can something be "infallibly safe".
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: DecemRationis on January 02, 2024, 04:27:32 PM
Just admit it, your "arguably-the-top theologian in the US prior to and leading up to Vatican II" was and still is part of the problem. It's educated eggheads like you that helped get us - and are helping to keep us in this mess.

V1 infallibly defines in very clear, very concise terms that any elementary student can understand, exactly when it is that the pope is infallible. Fr. Fenton teaches that popes cannot teach error. Yet you see no difference. You call me untrained, what the heck kind of training were you put through that you see no difference? Get your money back.

:laugh1: :laugh2: :laugh1:
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Ladislaus on January 02, 2024, 05:24:02 PM
:facepalm: No, Stubborn, Msgr. Fenton did not hold that the Pope cold not teach any error.  He said the exact opposite.  Perhaps if you took some remedial classes in reading comprehension and/or even bothered to read Msgr. Fenton's "The Doctrinal Authority of Papal Encyclicals", you'd actually being to understand what he was saying.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Plenus Venter on January 02, 2024, 07:18:48 PM
While no given papal teaching that does not meet the notes of infallibility defined at Vatican I is absolutely guaranteed to be free from error
a substantial body of papal teaching cannot be in error.  It's actually what you clowns keep calling "Tradition", and which is why we can rely on the teachings of Pius IX, Gregory XVI, St. Pius X that were not strictly infallible to be generally reliable.  It's due to the Holy Ghost protection over the papal Magisterium, which +Lefebvre affirmed and which you bad-willed idiots refuse to address...

If there's anything worse than heresy, it's heresy combined with sheer stupdity.
So says you, but not the Church.

What is to stop a bad Pope teaching in the Ordinary Magisterium against Tradition, against the infallible Magisterium of the past?

We already knew from the infallible magisterium that the novelties of Vatican II were contrary to Catholic teaching (whether from the extraordinary or infallible ordinary magisterium) and so our good Archbishop Lefebvre withstood the Pope to his face. Nothing becomes part of Tradition by contradicting Tradition.

And that is why Cardinal Franzelin in stating that the present consensus of the Church/the unanimous preaching of the Church/a universal present consensus alone suffices of itself, explains that this is a means of knowing absolute antiquity, "by either of these means absolute antiquity can be known", and immediately qualifies what he says by stating "but if, through the arising of a controversy, this consensus were to become less apparent, or were not acknowledged by the adversaries to be confuted, then - says St Vincent - appeal must be made to the manifest consensus of antiquity, or to solemn judgements, or to the consentient convictions of the Fathers". Apply that to Vatican II and you will arrive at the same understanding of the infallibility of Vatican II and the post Vatican II magisterium as Archbishop Lefebvre. What a great theologian he truly was, what a marvelous man of the Church God gave us.

We see here that Cardinal Franzelin believed that ultimately universality, as he explains St Vincent's understanding of that term, is not to be considered apart from antiquity, and so to arrive at a conclusion that the present day ordinary magisterium is infallible, it can in no way contradict the magisterium of the past.

Your idea here of how the Holy Ghost protects the papal magisterium is clearly erroneous and exaggerated.

It's just another example of someone being shocked by the magnitude of what has happened and throwing up his hands and saying, it's not possible, it's never happened before, he can't be Pope.

Thanks to QVD for providing the reference to Cardinal Franzelin's thesis which confirms this understanding of the infallible magisterium:
https://novusordowatch.org/wp-content/uploads/franzelin-vincentian-canon.pdf
(see bottom p 168, top of p169) (https://novusordowatch.org/wp-content/uploads/franzelin-vincentian-canon.pdf)

 (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/rr-explain-why-the-old-catholics-were-wrong/107/?action=reporttm;msg=920357)


Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Stubborn on January 03, 2024, 05:04:09 AM
:facepalm: No, Stubborn, Msgr. Fenton did not hold that the Pope cold not teach any error.  He said the exact opposite.  Perhaps if you took some remedial classes in reading comprehension and/or even bothered to read Msgr. Fenton's "The Doctrinal Authority of Papal Encyclicals", you'd actually being to understand what he was saying.
No Lad, Fr. Feeney called him out and we are living his wrong teaching since V2, where those who follow whatever directive of the pope "will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience." "All we have to do is what the priest, bishops and pope tells us, no matter what he tells us" has been used as the excuse by NOers since V2.

NOers use this teaching of his (not the Church's) as their excuse to practice the conciliar religion, conciliar popes use it as their foundation to do whatever. You and (all?) other sedes use it  as a means to prove popes are not popes, then, as you just did above, claim "He said the exact opposite." :facepalm:
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: 2Vermont on January 03, 2024, 06:06:39 AM
My understanding of "infallibly safe" or "infallible security" has always been that it's not the same thing as "infallible". It seems posters here are equating the two.

AUTHORITY OF PAPAL ENCYLICALS (catholicapologetics.info) (http://catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/docauthority.htm#PART_II)

I pulled a couple of places where Msgr Fenton speaks of it here:


Franzelin holds that the Roman Pontiff can command all Catholics to assent to a given proposition (either directly or by condemning the contradictory statement), for either one of two different reasons. First the Holy Father can intend to define this proposition infallibly as true or as de fide. Again he can will merely to look after the security of Catholic doctrine. The magisterium of the Church has been equipped with help from God by reason of which the first sort of teaching gives infallible truth, while the second affords infallible security.

Employing the plentitude of its power, the teaching Church operates as the auctoritas infallibilitatis. Working, not to define, but merely to take those steps it deems necessary to safeguard the faith, it is the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis. To this auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis and to the teachings it sets forth, the faithful owe the obedience of respectful silence and of an internal mental assent according to which the proposition thus presented is accepted, not as infallibly true, but as safe, as guaranteed by that authority which is divinely commissioned to care for the Christian faith.

....

It is, of course, possible that the Church might come to modify its stand on some detail of teaching presented as non-infallible matter in a papal encyclical. The nature of the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis within the Church is such, however, that this fallibility extends to questions of relatively minute detail or of particular application. The body of doctrine on the rights and duties of labor, on the Church and State, or on any other subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneous. The infallible security Christ wills that His disciples should enjoy within His Church is utterly incompatible with such a possibility.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Ladislaus on January 03, 2024, 07:32:39 AM
My understanding of "infallibly safe" or "infallible security" has always been that it's not the same thing as "infallible". It seems posters here are equating the two.

That's exactly right.  These posters either 1) didn't even read Fenton, 2) have very poor reading comprehension skills, 3) feel the need to distort Fenton in order to refute their false strawman representation of what he actually said.  It's probably some combination of these 3 factors.  Then there was the typical Stubbornian gratuitous dismissal of Fenton as being "no good" (in the past he's dismissed all "19th and 20th century theologians").  When Stubborn produces a screenshot of his doctorate in theology, I might spent 2 seconds considering his claims.

Fenton was speaking about an aspect of the Church's indefectibility, that the Pope is protected by the Holy Spirit from leading souls into grave, substantial error, since such a thing would be incompatible with the promises of Our Lord for the papacy and for the Church (as Vatican I taught and as Archbishop Lefebvre affirmed).

+Lefebvre:
Quote
ultimately I agree with you; it's not possible that the Pope, who is protected by the Holy Ghost, could do things like this.  There we agree; it's not possible, it doesn't fit, this destruction of the Church ...
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Pax Vobis on January 03, 2024, 08:06:26 AM

Quote
My understanding of "infallibly safe" or "infallible security" has always been that it's not the same thing as "infallible". It seems posters here are equating the two.

Quote
Franzelin holds that the Roman Pontiff can command all Catholics to assent to a given proposition (either directly or by condemning the contradictory statement), for either one of two different reasons.
The key words are underlined above, which line up with Fenton's explanation.  The papal order/directive must be a command (i.e. binding, under pain of sin) and apply to all catholics.


Thus, docuмents such as Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors (which is not a doctrinal definition, but a condemnation of errors) would be "infallibly safe".  I think we all can agree with this.

The problem is, when people start applying "infallibly safe" to such things as Pius XII's NFP comments, or his evolution comments.  Or JP2's encyclicals.  Or even the new mass.  These have never been binding, or commanded under pain of sin, and do not apply to all catholics.  ...And i've seen many on here over-apply the idea of "infallibly safe".
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Matthew on January 03, 2024, 08:13:18 AM
Here's my response:

https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/response-to-all-the-sede-threads/
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: DecemRationis on January 03, 2024, 08:21:40 AM
That's exactly right.  These posters either 1) didn't even read Fenton, 2) have very poor reading comprehension skills, 3) feel the need to distort Fenton in order to refute their false strawman representation of what he actually said.  It's probably some combination of these 3 factors.  Then there was the typical Stubbornian gratuitous dismissal of Fenton as being "no good" (in the past he's dismissed all "19th and 20th century theologians").  When Stubborn produces a screenshot of his doctorate in theology, I might spent 2 seconds considering his claims.

Fenton was speaking about an aspect of the Church's indefectibility, that the Pope is protected by the Holy Spirit from leading souls into grave, substantial error, since such a thing would be incompatible with the promises of Our Lord for the papacy and for the Church (as Vatican I taught and as Archbishop Lefebvre affirmed).

+Lefebvre:


You'd be making a big mistake requiring credentials before considering the argument of a member here (who pretty much all have the Catholic faith). To base wisdom on "credentials" is the mark of the Pharisees:


Quote
John 7:41-47

 41 Others said: This is the Christ. But some said: Doth the Christ come out of Galilee?  42 Doth not the scripture say: That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and from Bethlehem the town where David was?  43 So there arose a dissension among the people because of him.  44 And some of them would have apprehended him: but no man laid hands on him.  45 The ministers therefore came to the chief priests and the Pharisees. And they said to them: Why have you not brought him?


46 The ministers answered: Never did man speak like this man.  47 The Pharisees therefore answered them: Are you also seduced?  48 Hath any one of the rulers believed in him, or of the Pharisees?  49 But this multitude, that knoweth not the law, are accursed.

 Stubborn's "claims" - as Fenton's, as Lapide's, as Haydock's, etc. - those of anyone else - are entitled to the same consideration as the claims of any man:



Quote
For the reasonings of any men whatsoever, even though they be Catholics, and of high reputation, are not to be treated by us in the same way as the canonical Scriptures are treated. We are at liberty, without doing any violence to the respect which these men deserve, to condemn and reject anything in their writings, if perchance we shall find that they have entertained opinions differing from that which others or we ourselves have, by the divine help, discovered to be the truth. I deal thus with the writings of others, and I wish my intelligent readers to deal thus with mine.


Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 1534). Kindle Edition.

How very "Protestant" of St. Augustine, eh?

If the great doctor, Blessed Augustine, says that of himself and his own writings, who is Fenton or anyone else? Stubborn or anyone else might be speaking truth "by divine help," and worth a listen.

Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Pax Vobis on January 03, 2024, 08:43:36 AM
Quote
Fenton was speaking about an aspect of the Church's indefectibility, that the Pope is protected by the Holy Spirit from leading souls into grave, substantial error, since such a thing would be incompatible with the promises of Our Lord for the papacy and for the Church (as Vatican I taught and as Archbishop Lefebvre affirmed).
The pope is only infallible or "infallibly safe" when he (to use Fenton's explanations) is

a) issuing a directive/command,  (which implies it is of a binding nature, which implies sin is involved for disobedience)
b) to the entire Church

This is why one can say Quo Primum is "infallibly safe", for since it does not deal directly with doctrine/morals, Pope St Pius V makes it clear (multiple times) he is enforcing a law, using his apostolic authority to command that, only his missal can be used (with certain exceptions), which directive applies to the entire Church.

Any papal act outside of the above, which does not fulfill the conditions, is not infallible/infallibly safe.

I've been saying this for YEARS.  Glad Fenton backs me up, because I read this from other theologians/books.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Ladislaus on January 03, 2024, 02:31:27 PM
The pope is only infallible or "infallibly safe" when he (to use Fenton's explanations) is

a) issuing a directive/command,  (which implies it is of a binding nature, which implies sin is involved for disobedience)
b) to the entire Church

This is why one can say Quo Primum is "infallibly safe", for since it does not deal directly with doctrine/morals, Pope St Pius V makes it clear (multiple times) he is enforcing a law, using his apostolic authority to command that, only his missal can be used (with certain exceptions), which directive applies to the entire Church.

Any papal act outside of the above, which does not fulfill the conditions, is not infallible/infallibly safe.

I've been saying this for YEARS.  Glad Fenton backs me up, because I read this from other theologians/books.

Except that you completely butcher what Fenton wrote in order to make infallible safety identical to infallibility.  He speaking specifically about the "non-infallible" teachings and commands given to the Universal Church.
Quote
... God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth.
...
The nature of the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis within the Church is such, however, that this fallibility extends to questions of relatively minute detail or of particular application. The body of doctrine on the rights and duties of labor, on the Church and State, or on any other subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneous. The infallible security Christ wills that His disciples should enjoy within His Church is utterly incompatible with such a possibility.
...
Ultimately, however, this assent is not the same as the one demanded in the formal act of faith. Strictly speaking, it is possible that this teaching (proposed in the encyclical letter) is subject to error. There are a thousand reasons to believe that it is not. It has probably never been (erroneous), and it is normally certain that it will never be. But, absolutely speaking, it could be, because God does not guarantee it as He guarantees the teaching formulated by way of definition’.

He's speaking in this article particularly about things like Papal Encyclicals, which generally do not contain teaching that's infallible according to the Vatican I definition and says basically that God's protection over Papal Magisterium would prevent those who accept it from having their faith harmed, and that a "subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneous".

We've had the V2 Antipopes teaching religious indifferentism, ecuмenism, religious liberty, etc. for 60+ years in many series of "Encyclicals" spanning numerous popes.  Fenton is talking about a "body of doctrine" such as what the V2 Antipopes have produced.  That's the kind of thing that Fenton would hold to be "infallibly safe" even if any given Encyclical does contain a formal definition that meets the notes of infallibility set forth by Vatican I.
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Ladislaus on January 03, 2024, 02:35:39 PM
You'd be making a big mistake requiring credentials before considering the argument of a member here (who pretty much all have the Catholic faith). To base wisdom on "credentials" is the mark of the Pharisees:

No, I require credentials not in general (since obviously none of us have them) but, rather, from the armchair theologians who would deride the work of an actual theologian as "nonsense".  It's one thing to disagree, and even Fenton admits that it's perfectly acceptable to disagree with theologians, but quite another for some hack with barely a proficiency with a Penny Catechism to deride it as "nonsense".  Msgr. Fenton might be wrong here (though he's not), but only those who don't understand what he's actually saying deride it as nonsense.  It's the same hubris displayed by those who deride Bishop Guerard des Lauriers' Thesis as "idiotic" or "nonsensical" ... when most of those who make the claim have not read his thesis, barely understand what's in it, etc.  While he could be mistaken, I doubt that the thinking of arguably-the-top theologian in the Church before Vatican II would be "idiotic" or "nonsense".
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: OABrownson1876 on January 03, 2024, 03:04:44 PM
I have read about six of Msgr. Fenton's articles on the subjects of EENS and the Church.  He did clarify in one article that Pius XII's reference to the "soul of the church" did not mean some form of "invisible membership."  This was a distinction that was needed.  My problem with Fenton is his reluctance to come to the defense of Fr. Feeney, a priest who told the Bostonian intelligentsia that they must become Catholic to be saved.  Msgr. Fenton died July 7, 1969, two months after the promulgation of Paul VI's Missale Romanum, the supposed official institution of the New Mass.  It would be interesting to know if Fenton had an opinion on this issue.  Dr. Patrick Carey says of Fenton, "When Fr. Leonard Feeney said that only Catholics could be saved, Fenton wrote a book against his error." He was referring to the book, The Catholic Church and Salvation (1958). Fenton actually served as the peritus to Cardinal Ottaviani, author of the Ottaviani Intervention. https://www.firstthings.com/article/2018/04/fenton-returns. (article on Fenton by Dr. Carey) 

I remember one of my professors at UL, a former Catholic priest (ordained in 1961); he had a doctorate from a Pontifical university in Canada, and all his classes were taught in Latin.  He could speak Latin conversationally.  He was from a large, pre-Vatican II, Catholic family. And yet here he was, a laicized priest, "married," teaching at a secular college.  And I think of all those seminary professors, college dons, Catholic intellectuals who abandoned the Faith in the aftermath of the Council and the New Mass.  Their intellects were sharp, but their wills were dulled by sin. God help us in the battle to come because I fear things will grow much darker than even our current "Franciscan" debacle.  
Title: Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
Post by: Pax Vobis on January 03, 2024, 03:29:48 PM

Quote
He's speaking in this article particularly about things like Papal Encyclicals, which generally do not contain teaching that's infallible according to the Vatican I definition and says basically that God's protection over Papal Magisterium would prevent those who accept it from having their faith harmed,
1.  Fenton's "pious belief" that God would protect the papal magisterium from error is the same as +Bellarmine's "pious belief" that the pope can not fall into heresy.  An opinion, however strong, from a theologian is still an opinion.


2.  A papal encyclical is not part of the papal magisterium, unless the pope is commanding something from the entire church.  100% of all post-V2 encyclicals do not command anything, nor do they apply to the universal church.  Thus, V2 encyclicals (and arguably 100% of the entire post-V2 magisterium) is not formally part of the papal magisterium.

3.  Again, you're expanding the papal magisterium to non-commands, non-directives and things which apply to only PART of the Church.  That's a contradictory definition.