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Author Topic: The Papal Mandate  (Read 3924 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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The Papal Mandate
« on: May 01, 2014, 07:46:06 AM »
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  • I want to try to get to the root cause of the necessity of the Papal Mandate again.  At the risk of looking even stupider than I actually am I am going to ask stupid questions to make sure I am not missing something or assuming anything that is not true in regards to jurisdiction and formal apostolic succession.  Keep in mind that I have a great amount of respect for those who disagree with me on the issue.  I do not have an us against them mentality.  I readily admit when I realize I could be wrong or am wrong.  I very much hope those I discuss the issue with do the same.  I don't care who is right I just want the truth.  I hope others can admit I made a good point if and when I do.  And I will try to do the same.  Additionally we should admit when something is said gives us pause or cannot be refuted.  I have witnessed to many debates where it seems to be more about appearances and who saves face and comes out looking the best rather than what the truth is.

    I do not open this thread as a debater.  I open it as one seeking answers from those who are generally more knowledgeable about the Catholic faith than I am.  Having said all this, I won't be surprised of nobody touches this with a ten-foot poll because they feel we have gone through this before and that I just will never "get it".  

    Regardless, here I go.

    1.  Is it a doctrine of the Church that the Papal Mandate was always necessary?

    2.  I hear the term "Papal" Mandate and "Apostolic" Mandate interchanged.  Do both terms mean exactly the same thing.  And what exactly do the terms mean?

    3.  Is a Papal Mandate a written permission or request by a valid Pope for a man to be made a bishop?

    4.  Has there indeed been times when the Papal Mandate was not expressly given and even times when there was no living Pope but the Bishops consecrated were valid Apostolic Bishops with Jurisdiction?

    5.  Can we distinguish between the doctrinal aspect of this issue and the disciplinary aspect(s)?  The first rule being the salvation of souls eliminates disciplinary aspects, when absolutely necessary, of the last living Pope?

    So there is a start.  This is not a debate or a battle.  Just inform me.  And if I make any valid points to the contrary give me credit rather than ignoring it.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Nishant

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    The Papal Mandate
    « Reply #1 on: May 01, 2014, 09:30:47 AM »
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  • Dear John, you know my view on this is different from yours, but before we come to that, please tell me how you reconcile your position with this passage, from Dom Gueranger's The Liturgical Year, Feast of St. Peter's Chair, which seems to contradict it in at least three different ways.

    Quote
    The unity of the Church was made more visible ... Rome was, more evidently than ever, the sole source of pastoral power.

    We, then, both priests and people, have a right to know whence our pastors have received their power. From whose hand have they received the keys? If their mission come from the apostolic see, let us honour and obey them, for they are sent to us by Jesus Christ, who has invested them, through Peter, with His own authority. If they claim our obedience without having been sent by the bishop of Rome, we must refuse to receive them, for they are not acknowledged by Christ as His ministers. The holy anointing may have conferred on them the sacred character of the episcopate : it matters not ; they must be as aliens to us, for they have not been sent, they are not pastors. Thus it is that the divine Founder of the Church, who willed that she should be a city seated on a mountain/ gave her visibility; it was an essential requisite ; for since all were called to enter her pale, all must be able to see her. But He was not satisfied with this. He moreover willed that the spiritual power exercised by her pastors should come from a visible source, so that the faithful might have a sure means of verifying the claims of those who were to guide them in His name. Our Lord (we say it reverently) owed this to us
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The Papal Mandate
    « Reply #2 on: May 01, 2014, 09:42:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    Dear John, you know my view on this is different from yours, but before we come to that, please tell me how you reconcile your position with this passage, from Dom Gueranger's The Liturgical Year, Feast of St. Peter's Chair, which seems to contradict it in at least three different ways.

    Quote
    The unity of the Church was made more visible ... Rome was, more evidently than ever, the sole source of pastoral power.

    We, then, both priests and people, have a right to know whence our pastors have received their power. From whose hand have they received the keys? If their mission come from the apostolic see, let us honour and obey them, for they are sent to us by Jesus Christ, who has invested them, through Peter, with His own authority. If they claim our obedience without having been sent by the bishop of Rome, we must refuse to receive them, for they are not acknowledged by Christ as His ministers. The holy anointing may have conferred on them the sacred character of the episcopate : it matters not ; they must be as aliens to us, for they have not been sent, they are not pastors. Thus it is that the divine Founder of the Church, who willed that she should be a city seated on a mountain/ gave her visibility; it was an essential requisite ; for since all were called to enter her pale, all must be able to see her. But He was not satisfied with this. He moreover willed that the spiritual power exercised by her pastors should come from a visible source, so that the faithful might have a sure means of verifying the claims of those who were to guide them in His name. Our Lord (we say it reverently) owed this to us


    Thank you Nischant for responding.  Can you answer my other questions above?  I want to make sure we are working from a same understanding of the terms.  For instance, about the term "apostolic see".  Does this simply mean "The Pope"?  I am not setting traps.  I simply want to know the answer to the questions I asked in the original post and then go from there.  I don't want us to be using the same terms and understanding them in a different way.  That is how people end up talking past each other without realizing it, thinking the other guy just doesn't get it.  

    There is no doubt in my mind that all apostolic Bishops must be united to the Pope or the Papacy if there is no living Pope.  There is no way around that.  Will you agree with me on that?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    The Papal Mandate
    « Reply #3 on: May 01, 2014, 12:25:59 PM »
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  • http://www.cmri.org/96prog9.htm

    Episcopal Consecration During Interregnums
    By Bishop Mark A. Pivarunas, CMRI

    Our Lady of Ransom
    September 24, 1996

    Dearly beloved in Christ,

    It has now been five years since His Excellency, the late Bishop Moises Carmona, bestowed episcopal consecration on me as a means to help preserve our precious Catholic Faith in these times of heresy and apostasy.

    As welcome as the consecrations of traditional Catholic bishops have been amongst the majority of the faithful, there have also been some who would question the lawfulness of these consecrations on the grounds that the strict letter of the law prohibits a bishop from consecrating another bishop without a papal mandate.

    It is most important that our Catholic faithful understand the theological principles involved in these matters in order to respond to those who would reject the Mass and the Sacraments offered by these bishops and the priests ordained by them.

    In this pastoral letter, we will briefly review this subject and examine the following pertinent considerations:

        1) the historical precedent of the consecration of bishops without papal mandate during the long inter-regnum (time between the death of one Pope and the election of another) between the reigns of Pope Clement IV and Pope Gregory X;

        2) the definition of law, the nature of law, and the intrinsic cessation of law;

        3) the subordination of lesser laws to the demands of higher laws.

    Before we undertake each of these considerations, it is first necessary to establish that there is presently, and has been since the Second Vatican Council, a most serious crisis in the Catholic Church. Where once the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass had been offered in Catholic churches throughout the world, now in its place stands the New Mass (the Novus Ordo Missae) which does not represent a propitiatory (atonement for sin) sacrifice but a Protestant memorial of the Last Supper. In this New Mass, the very words of Christ in the sacramental form of the Holy Eucharist have been substantially altered, which, according to the Decree of Pope St. Pius V, De Defectibus, “invalidates the consecration.” Since the advent of the Second Vatican Council, the false doctrines of ecuмenism and religious indifferentism (which have been condemned by many popes and councils, especially by Pope Pius IX) have been promulgated by the ordinary, universal teaching authority of the modern hierarchy under Paul VI and John Paul II where official recognition is given not only to non-Catholic sects (Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Orthodoxy), but also non- Christian religions (Buddhism, Hinduism, Islamism, Judaism), to mention a few. Now, the modern hierarchy accepts these other religions, encourages their members to pray to their gods, and attempts to promote the “good” in these religions.

    How can one reconcile the infallible teachings of the Magisterium (teaching authority of the pope and bishops) of the Catholic Church prior to the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) with the errors which have emanated from this same Council and which have continued to be promulgated by the modern hierarchy for the past thirty years?

    The proper conclusion, the only conclusion that we can come to is that the modern hierarchy of the post-Conciliar Church of Vatican II cannot and does not represent the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. For Christ promised to be with His Apostles and their successors “all days even to the consummation of the world.” To His Apostles and their successors, Our Lord promised the assistance of the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, Who would “abide with them forever.”

    From the teachings of the First Vatican Council (1870), we know that the Catholic Church is infallible not only in her solemn decrees (the Pope teaching ex cathedra; the decrees of ecuмenical councils) but also in her ordinary, universal teachings:

        “Moreover, by divine and Catholic faith, everything must be believed that is contained in the written word of God or in tradition, and that is proposed by the Church as a divinely revealed object of faith either in a solemn decree or in her ordinary, universal teaching.”

    To think otherwise would be to imply that Christ has failed His Church and the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, Who abides with the Apostles and their successors, has abandoned the Church to fall into such manifest errors.

    Under these unprecedented circuмstances, we must consider the position of true Catholic bishops. Faced with the Great Apostasy predicted by St. Paul in his second epistle to the Thessalonians, what were they to do? Were they to do nothing?

    The opponents of the consecration of bishops in our times would answer in the affirmative. Thus, at the death of those traditional Catholic bishops who remained faithful to the true Faith, there would be no bishops left to succeed them. And without bishops, there would eventually be no priests, no Mass, and no sacraments.

    Yet, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ promised His Apostles and their successors that He would “be with them all days even to the consummation of the world” (Matt. 28:20). In this regard the First Vatican Council taught:

        “Therefore, just as He (Christ) sent the Apostles, whom He had chosen for Himself out of the world, as He Himself was sent by the Father (John 20:21), so also He wished shepherds and teachers to be in His Church until the consummation of the world” (Matt. 28:20)

    In order to preserve the Catholic Faith, the holy priesthood and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, these bishops took appropriate measures to ensure the promise of Christ “that there be shepherds and teachers in His Church until the consummation of the world.”

    These measures were taken without any intention to deny the primacy of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, the supreme authority of the pope. For these bishops and the priests whom they consecrated have whole-heartedly professed the Catholic Faith, which includes the doctrine concerning the primacy of jurisdiction and the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff. Under the circuмstances, the papal office, which will endure until the end of time, was vacant. Thus, there was an impossibility of obtaining a papal mandate to authorize the episcopal consecrations.

    This leads us to consider the precedent found in ecclesiastical history for the consecration of bishops during the time of interregnum (the vacancy of the Apostolic See).

    The following is an excerpt from Il Nuovo Osservatore Cattolico by Dr. Stephano Filiberto, who has a doctorate in Ecclesiastical History:

        “On November 29, 1268, Pope Clement IV died, and there began one of the longest periods of interregnum or vacancy of the papal office in the history of the Catholic Church. The cardinals at that time were to assemble in conclave in the city of Viterbo, but through the intrigues of Carlo d’Anglio, King of Naples, discord was sown among the members of the Sacred College and the prospect of any election grew more and more remote.

        “After almost three years, the mayor of Viterbo enclosed the cardinals in a palace, allowing them only strict living rations, until a decision would be made which would give to the Church its visible Head. At last, on September 1, 1271, Pope Gregory X was elected to the Chair of Peter.

        “During this long period of vacancy of the Apostolic See, vacancies also occurred in many dioceses throughout the world. In order that the priests and faithful might not be left without shepherds, bishops were elected and consecrated to fill the vacant sees. There were accomplished during this time twenty-one known elections and consecrations in various countries. The most important aspect of this historical precedent is that all of these consecrations of bishops were ratified by Pope Gregory X, who consequently affirmed the lawfulness of such consecrations.”

    Here are a few examples of the bishops thus consecrated at the time of vacancy of the Apostolic See:

        1) In Avranches, France, Radulfus de Thieville, consecrated November, 1269;
        2) In Aleria, Corsica, Nicolaus Forteguerra, consecrated 1270;
        3) In Antivari, Epiro (Northwestern Greece), Caspar Adam, O.P., consecrated 1270;
        4) In Auxerre, France, Erardus de Lesinnes, consecrated January, 1271;
        5) In Cagli, Italy, Jacobus, consecrated September 8, 1270;
        6) In Le Mans, France, Geoffridus d’Asse, consecrated 1270;
        7) In Cefalu, Sicily, Petrus Taurs, consecrated 1269;
        8) In Cervia, Italy, Theodoricus Borgognoni, O.P., consecrated 1270.

    At this point, those who oppose the consecration of traditional Catholic bishops in our times might argue that the historical precedent cited was 700 years ago and that Pope Pius XII, in view of the illicit consecrations of bishops in the schismatic National Church of China, decreed that any consecration of a bishop performed without papal mandate carried with it the penalty of ipso facto excommunication for the consecrator and the consecrated.

    In order to answer this objection, it is necessary to understand the nature of law. It is precisely from the lack of clear knowledge of the principles of law that many traditional Catholics fall into error. St. Thomas Aquinas defines law as an ordinance of right reason made for the common good promulgated by one who has authority in that society. Let us note “made for the common good.” In the time of Pope Pius XII, no bishop could lawfully consecrate another bishop without papal mandate, and this was for the common good of the Church. However, a law may, through the course of time and by a radical change in circuмstances, cease to be for the common good and as such, cease to be binding. A law may cease in two ways: extrinsic cessation (the legislator abrogates the law) and intrinsic cessation (the law ceases to be a law, as it has ceased to be for the common good).

    As Archbishop Amleto Giovanni Cicognani, Professor of Canon Law at the Pontifical Institute of Canon and Civil Law in Rome, taught in his commentary:

        “A law ceases intrinsically when its purpose ceases; the law ceases of itself... the law ceases extrinsically when it is revoked by the Superior.

        “Relative to the first way: The end (either of its purpose or its cause) of the law ceases adequately when all its purposes cease. The purpose of the law ceases contrariwise when an injurious law becomes either unjust or impossible of observance.”

    Thus, in our present times, the strict observance of Pope Pius XII’s decree on the prohibition of the consecration of bishops without papal mandate would become injurious to the salvation of souls. Without bishops, there would eventually be no priests, no Mass and no sacraments.

    Was this the intention of the legislator, Pope Pius XII? Would he have wished his decree to be so strictly interpreted as to eventually bring about the end of apostolic succession? Obviously not.

    Regarding another aspect of law, Archbishop Cicognani has explained — once again, in his Canon Law Commentary — the nature of epikeia:

        “A human lawgiver is never able to foresee all the individual cases to which his law will be applied. Consequently, a law, though just in general, may, taken literally, lead in some unforeseen circuмstances to results which agree neither with the intent of the lawgiver nor with natural justice, but rather contravene them. In such cases, the law must be expounded, not according to its wording, but according to the intent of the lawgiver.”

    The following authors provide us with additional definitions for this aspect of law — epikeia: Bouscaren and Ellis: Canon Law, 1953:

        Bouscaren and Ellis: Canon Law, 1953:
        “An interpretation exempting one from the law, contrary to the clear words of the law, and in accordance with the mind of the legislator.”

        Prummer: Moral Theology, 1955:
        “A favorable and just interpretation not of the law itself but of the mind of the legislator, who is presumed to be unwilling to bind his subjects in extraordinary cases where the observance of his law would cause injury or impose too severe a burden.”

        Besson: Catholic Encyclopedia, 1909:
        “A favorable interpretation of the purpose of the legislator, which supposes that he did not intend to include a particular case within the scope of his law.”

        Jone and Adelman: Moral Theology, 1951:
        “The reasonable taking for granted that the lawgiver would not wish to oblige in some particularly difficult case even though the case is obviously covered by the wording of the law.”

    A last consideration in this matter of Pope Pius XII’s decree is found in the very word law (in Latin, jus). It is derived from the Latin words justitia (justice) and justum (just), for all laws are meant to be good, equitable and just. This is the very characteristic of law. And of all laws, the ultimate law is the salvation of souls, “salus animarum, suprema lex.”

    Pope Pius XII stated in his address to the clerical students of Rome on June 24, 1939:

        “Canon law likewise is directed to the salvation of souls; and the purpose of all its regulations and laws is that men may live and die in the holiness given them by the grace of God.”

    In order to spiritually survive today, we need the graces of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the sacraments. But in order to have them, we need priests, and in order to have priests, we must have bishops.

    Let us thank Almighty God, Who, in His Providence, has foreseen the spiritual needs of His flock and has provided teachers and shepherds to carry on the mission of the Church “to teach all nations all things whatsoever He has commanded.”

    In Christo Jesu et Maria Immaculata,
    Most Rev. Mark A. Pivarunas, CMRI

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The Papal Mandate
    « Reply #4 on: May 01, 2014, 12:32:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    http://www.cmri.org/96prog9.htm

    Episcopal Consecration During Interregnums
    By Bishop Mark A. Pivarunas, CMRI

    Our Lady of Ransom
    September 24, 1996

    Dearly beloved in Christ,

    It has now been five years since His Excellency, the late Bishop Moises Carmona, bestowed episcopal consecration on me as a means to help preserve our precious Catholic Faith in these times of heresy and apostasy.

    As welcome as the consecrations of traditional Catholic bishops have been amongst the majority of the faithful, there have also been some who would question the lawfulness of these consecrations on the grounds that the strict letter of the law prohibits a bishop from consecrating another bishop without a papal mandate.

    It is most important that our Catholic faithful understand the theological principles involved in these matters in order to respond to those who would reject the Mass and the Sacraments offered by these bishops and the priests ordained by them.

    In this pastoral letter, we will briefly review this subject and examine the following pertinent considerations:

        1) the historical precedent of the consecration of bishops without papal mandate during the long inter-regnum (time between the death of one Pope and the election of another) between the reigns of Pope Clement IV and Pope Gregory X;

        2) the definition of law, the nature of law, and the intrinsic cessation of law;

        3) the subordination of lesser laws to the demands of higher laws.

    Before we undertake each of these considerations, it is first necessary to establish that there is presently, and has been since the Second Vatican Council, a most serious crisis in the Catholic Church. Where once the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass had been offered in Catholic churches throughout the world, now in its place stands the New Mass (the Novus Ordo Missae) which does not represent a propitiatory (atonement for sin) sacrifice but a Protestant memorial of the Last Supper. In this New Mass, the very words of Christ in the sacramental form of the Holy Eucharist have been substantially altered, which, according to the Decree of Pope St. Pius V, De Defectibus, “invalidates the consecration.” Since the advent of the Second Vatican Council, the false doctrines of ecuмenism and religious indifferentism (which have been condemned by many popes and councils, especially by Pope Pius IX) have been promulgated by the ordinary, universal teaching authority of the modern hierarchy under Paul VI and John Paul II where official recognition is given not only to non-Catholic sects (Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Orthodoxy), but also non- Christian religions (Buddhism, Hinduism, Islamism, Judaism), to mention a few. Now, the modern hierarchy accepts these other religions, encourages their members to pray to their gods, and attempts to promote the “good” in these religions.

    How can one reconcile the infallible teachings of the Magisterium (teaching authority of the pope and bishops) of the Catholic Church prior to the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) with the errors which have emanated from this same Council and which have continued to be promulgated by the modern hierarchy for the past thirty years?

    The proper conclusion, the only conclusion that we can come to is that the modern hierarchy of the post-Conciliar Church of Vatican II cannot and does not represent the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. For Christ promised to be with His Apostles and their successors “all days even to the consummation of the world.” To His Apostles and their successors, Our Lord promised the assistance of the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, Who would “abide with them forever.”

    From the teachings of the First Vatican Council (1870), we know that the Catholic Church is infallible not only in her solemn decrees (the Pope teaching ex cathedra; the decrees of ecuмenical councils) but also in her ordinary, universal teachings:

        “Moreover, by divine and Catholic faith, everything must be believed that is contained in the written word of God or in tradition, and that is proposed by the Church as a divinely revealed object of faith either in a solemn decree or in her ordinary, universal teaching.”

    To think otherwise would be to imply that Christ has failed His Church and the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, Who abides with the Apostles and their successors, has abandoned the Church to fall into such manifest errors.

    Under these unprecedented circuмstances, we must consider the position of true Catholic bishops. Faced with the Great Apostasy predicted by St. Paul in his second epistle to the Thessalonians, what were they to do? Were they to do nothing?

    The opponents of the consecration of bishops in our times would answer in the affirmative. Thus, at the death of those traditional Catholic bishops who remained faithful to the true Faith, there would be no bishops left to succeed them. And without bishops, there would eventually be no priests, no Mass, and no sacraments.

    Yet, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ promised His Apostles and their successors that He would “be with them all days even to the consummation of the world” (Matt. 28:20). In this regard the First Vatican Council taught:

        “Therefore, just as He (Christ) sent the Apostles, whom He had chosen for Himself out of the world, as He Himself was sent by the Father (John 20:21), so also He wished shepherds and teachers to be in His Church until the consummation of the world” (Matt. 28:20)

    In order to preserve the Catholic Faith, the holy priesthood and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, these bishops took appropriate measures to ensure the promise of Christ “that there be shepherds and teachers in His Church until the consummation of the world.”

    These measures were taken without any intention to deny the primacy of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, the supreme authority of the pope. For these bishops and the priests whom they consecrated have whole-heartedly professed the Catholic Faith, which includes the doctrine concerning the primacy of jurisdiction and the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff. Under the circuмstances, the papal office, which will endure until the end of time, was vacant. Thus, there was an impossibility of obtaining a papal mandate to authorize the episcopal consecrations.

    This leads us to consider the precedent found in ecclesiastical history for the consecration of bishops during the time of interregnum (the vacancy of the Apostolic See).

    The following is an excerpt from Il Nuovo Osservatore Cattolico by Dr. Stephano Filiberto, who has a doctorate in Ecclesiastical History:

        “On November 29, 1268, Pope Clement IV died, and there began one of the longest periods of interregnum or vacancy of the papal office in the history of the Catholic Church. The cardinals at that time were to assemble in conclave in the city of Viterbo, but through the intrigues of Carlo d’Anglio, King of Naples, discord was sown among the members of the Sacred College and the prospect of any election grew more and more remote.

        “After almost three years, the mayor of Viterbo enclosed the cardinals in a palace, allowing them only strict living rations, until a decision would be made which would give to the Church its visible Head. At last, on September 1, 1271, Pope Gregory X was elected to the Chair of Peter.

        “During this long period of vacancy of the Apostolic See, vacancies also occurred in many dioceses throughout the world. In order that the priests and faithful might not be left without shepherds, bishops were elected and consecrated to fill the vacant sees. There were accomplished during this time twenty-one known elections and consecrations in various countries. The most important aspect of this historical precedent is that all of these consecrations of bishops were ratified by Pope Gregory X, who consequently affirmed the lawfulness of such consecrations.”

    Here are a few examples of the bishops thus consecrated at the time of vacancy of the Apostolic See:

        1) In Avranches, France, Radulfus de Thieville, consecrated November, 1269;
        2) In Aleria, Corsica, Nicolaus Forteguerra, consecrated 1270;
        3) In Antivari, Epiro (Northwestern Greece), Caspar Adam, O.P., consecrated 1270;
        4) In Auxerre, France, Erardus de Lesinnes, consecrated January, 1271;
        5) In Cagli, Italy, Jacobus, consecrated September 8, 1270;
        6) In Le Mans, France, Geoffridus d’Asse, consecrated 1270;
        7) In Cefalu, Sicily, Petrus Taurs, consecrated 1269;
        8) In Cervia, Italy, Theodoricus Borgognoni, O.P., consecrated 1270.

    At this point, those who oppose the consecration of traditional Catholic bishops in our times might argue that the historical precedent cited was 700 years ago and that Pope Pius XII, in view of the illicit consecrations of bishops in the schismatic National Church of China, decreed that any consecration of a bishop performed without papal mandate carried with it the penalty of ipso facto excommunication for the consecrator and the consecrated.

    In order to answer this objection, it is necessary to understand the nature of law. It is precisely from the lack of clear knowledge of the principles of law that many traditional Catholics fall into error. St. Thomas Aquinas defines law as an ordinance of right reason made for the common good promulgated by one who has authority in that society. Let us note “made for the common good.” In the time of Pope Pius XII, no bishop could lawfully consecrate another bishop without papal mandate, and this was for the common good of the Church. However, a law may, through the course of time and by a radical change in circuмstances, cease to be for the common good and as such, cease to be binding. A law may cease in two ways: extrinsic cessation (the legislator abrogates the law) and intrinsic cessation (the law ceases to be a law, as it has ceased to be for the common good).

    As Archbishop Amleto Giovanni Cicognani, Professor of Canon Law at the Pontifical Institute of Canon and Civil Law in Rome, taught in his commentary:

        “A law ceases intrinsically when its purpose ceases; the law ceases of itself... the law ceases extrinsically when it is revoked by the Superior.

        “Relative to the first way: The end (either of its purpose or its cause) of the law ceases adequately when all its purposes cease. The purpose of the law ceases contrariwise when an injurious law becomes either unjust or impossible of observance.”

    Thus, in our present times, the strict observance of Pope Pius XII’s decree on the prohibition of the consecration of bishops without papal mandate would become injurious to the salvation of souls. Without bishops, there would eventually be no priests, no Mass and no sacraments.

    Was this the intention of the legislator, Pope Pius XII? Would he have wished his decree to be so strictly interpreted as to eventually bring about the end of apostolic succession? Obviously not.

    Regarding another aspect of law, Archbishop Cicognani has explained — once again, in his Canon Law Commentary — the nature of epikeia:

        “A human lawgiver is never able to foresee all the individual cases to which his law will be applied. Consequently, a law, though just in general, may, taken literally, lead in some unforeseen circuмstances to results which agree neither with the intent of the lawgiver nor with natural justice, but rather contravene them. In such cases, the law must be expounded, not according to its wording, but according to the intent of the lawgiver.”

    The following authors provide us with additional definitions for this aspect of law — epikeia: Bouscaren and Ellis: Canon Law, 1953:

        Bouscaren and Ellis: Canon Law, 1953:
        “An interpretation exempting one from the law, contrary to the clear words of the law, and in accordance with the mind of the legislator.”

        Prummer: Moral Theology, 1955:
        “A favorable and just interpretation not of the law itself but of the mind of the legislator, who is presumed to be unwilling to bind his subjects in extraordinary cases where the observance of his law would cause injury or impose too severe a burden.”

        Besson: Catholic Encyclopedia, 1909:
        “A favorable interpretation of the purpose of the legislator, which supposes that he did not intend to include a particular case within the scope of his law.”

        Jone and Adelman: Moral Theology, 1951:
        “The reasonable taking for granted that the lawgiver would not wish to oblige in some particularly difficult case even though the case is obviously covered by the wording of the law.”

    A last consideration in this matter of Pope Pius XII’s decree is found in the very word law (in Latin, jus). It is derived from the Latin words justitia (justice) and justum (just), for all laws are meant to be good, equitable and just. This is the very characteristic of law. And of all laws, the ultimate law is the salvation of souls, “salus animarum, suprema lex.”

    Pope Pius XII stated in his address to the clerical students of Rome on June 24, 1939:

        “Canon law likewise is directed to the salvation of souls; and the purpose of all its regulations and laws is that men may live and die in the holiness given them by the grace of God.”

    In order to spiritually survive today, we need the graces of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the sacraments. But in order to have them, we need priests, and in order to have priests, we must have bishops.

    Let us thank Almighty God, Who, in His Providence, has foreseen the spiritual needs of His flock and has provided teachers and shepherds to carry on the mission of the Church “to teach all nations all things whatsoever He has commanded.”

    In Christo Jesu et Maria Immaculata,
    Most Rev. Mark A. Pivarunas, CMRI


    Thanks for this Clemens Maria.  I believe I have read this.  Am I correct the he touches on jurisdiction in general but does not distinguish supplied and formal jurisdiction?  I head a talk of his where he got to the brink of saying whether the jurisdiction of traditional bishops is supplied or formal or even if supplied jurisdiction can be considered "formal" while waiting for it to be made official by the next living Pope.  He got to the point of make a distinction but stopped short either way on purpose because it was not clear to him himself perhaps.  That was my take which could be completely wrong.  I believe our clergy reacted to the situation they were thrust in without having time in being schooled in the various distinctions especially if those distinctions are not patently obvious in regards to our situation.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    The Papal Mandate
    « Reply #5 on: May 01, 2014, 12:35:30 PM »
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  • Example of the usage of the term "apostolic mandate":

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10notre.htm

    Quote
    Notre Charge Apostolique
    "Our Apostolic Mandate"

    Given by Pope Pius X to the French Bishops
    August 15, 1910

    Our Apostolic Mandate requires from Us that We watch over the purity of the Faith and the integrity of Catholic discipline.  ...


    In this case, clearly it is not meant to mean the same thing as a papal mandate (rescript).  cf. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12783b.htm
    and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_mandate

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The Papal Mandate
    « Reply #6 on: May 01, 2014, 12:47:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    http://www.cmri.org/96prog9.htm

    Episcopal Consecration During Interregnums
    By Bishop Mark A. Pivarunas, CMRI

    Our Lady of Ransom
    September 24, 1996

    Dearly beloved in Christ,

    It has now been five years since His Excellency, the late Bishop Moises Carmona, bestowed episcopal consecration on me as a means to help preserve our precious Catholic Faith in these times of heresy and apostasy.

    As welcome as the consecrations of traditional Catholic bishops have been amongst the majority of the faithful, there have also been some who would question the lawfulness of these consecrations on the grounds that the strict letter of the law prohibits a bishop from consecrating another bishop without a papal mandate.

    It is most important that our Catholic faithful understand the theological principles involved in these matters in order to respond to those who would reject the Mass and the Sacraments offered by these bishops and the priests ordained by them.

    In this pastoral letter, we will briefly review this subject and examine the following pertinent considerations:

        1) the historical precedent of the consecration of bishops without papal mandate during the long inter-regnum (time between the death of one Pope and the election of another) between the reigns of Pope Clement IV and Pope Gregory X;

        2) the definition of law, the nature of law, and the intrinsic cessation of law;

        3) the subordination of lesser laws to the demands of higher laws.

    Before we undertake each of these considerations, it is first necessary to establish that there is presently, and has been since the Second Vatican Council, a most serious crisis in the Catholic Church. Where once the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass had been offered in Catholic churches throughout the world, now in its place stands the New Mass (the Novus Ordo Missae) which does not represent a propitiatory (atonement for sin) sacrifice but a Protestant memorial of the Last Supper. In this New Mass, the very words of Christ in the sacramental form of the Holy Eucharist have been substantially altered, which, according to the Decree of Pope St. Pius V, De Defectibus, “invalidates the consecration.” Since the advent of the Second Vatican Council, the false doctrines of ecuмenism and religious indifferentism (which have been condemned by many popes and councils, especially by Pope Pius IX) have been promulgated by the ordinary, universal teaching authority of the modern hierarchy under Paul VI and John Paul II where official recognition is given not only to non-Catholic sects (Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Orthodoxy), but also non- Christian religions (Buddhism, Hinduism, Islamism, Judaism), to mention a few. Now, the modern hierarchy accepts these other religions, encourages their members to pray to their gods, and attempts to promote the “good” in these religions.

    How can one reconcile the infallible teachings of the Magisterium (teaching authority of the pope and bishops) of the Catholic Church prior to the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) with the errors which have emanated from this same Council and which have continued to be promulgated by the modern hierarchy for the past thirty years?

    The proper conclusion, the only conclusion that we can come to is that the modern hierarchy of the post-Conciliar Church of Vatican II cannot and does not represent the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. For Christ promised to be with His Apostles and their successors “all days even to the consummation of the world.” To His Apostles and their successors, Our Lord promised the assistance of the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, Who would “abide with them forever.”

    From the teachings of the First Vatican Council (1870), we know that the Catholic Church is infallible not only in her solemn decrees (the Pope teaching ex cathedra; the decrees of ecuмenical councils) but also in her ordinary, universal teachings:

        “Moreover, by divine and Catholic faith, everything must be believed that is contained in the written word of God or in tradition, and that is proposed by the Church as a divinely revealed object of faith either in a solemn decree or in her ordinary, universal teaching.”

    To think otherwise would be to imply that Christ has failed His Church and the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, Who abides with the Apostles and their successors, has abandoned the Church to fall into such manifest errors.

    Under these unprecedented circuмstances, we must consider the position of true Catholic bishops. Faced with the Great Apostasy predicted by St. Paul in his second epistle to the Thessalonians, what were they to do? Were they to do nothing?

    The opponents of the consecration of bishops in our times would answer in the affirmative. Thus, at the death of those traditional Catholic bishops who remained faithful to the true Faith, there would be no bishops left to succeed them. And without bishops, there would eventually be no priests, no Mass, and no sacraments.

    Yet, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ promised His Apostles and their successors that He would “be with them all days even to the consummation of the world” (Matt. 28:20). In this regard the First Vatican Council taught:

        “Therefore, just as He (Christ) sent the Apostles, whom He had chosen for Himself out of the world, as He Himself was sent by the Father (John 20:21), so also He wished shepherds and teachers to be in His Church until the consummation of the world” (Matt. 28:20)

    In order to preserve the Catholic Faith, the holy priesthood and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, these bishops took appropriate measures to ensure the promise of Christ “that there be shepherds and teachers in His Church until the consummation of the world.”

    These measures were taken without any intention to deny the primacy of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, the supreme authority of the pope. For these bishops and the priests whom they consecrated have whole-heartedly professed the Catholic Faith, which includes the doctrine concerning the primacy of jurisdiction and the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff. Under the circuмstances, the papal office, which will endure until the end of time, was vacant. Thus, there was an impossibility of obtaining a papal mandate to authorize the episcopal consecrations.

    This leads us to consider the precedent found in ecclesiastical history for the consecration of bishops during the time of interregnum (the vacancy of the Apostolic See).

    The following is an excerpt from Il Nuovo Osservatore Cattolico by Dr. Stephano Filiberto, who has a doctorate in Ecclesiastical History:

        “On November 29, 1268, Pope Clement IV died, and there began one of the longest periods of interregnum or vacancy of the papal office in the history of the Catholic Church. The cardinals at that time were to assemble in conclave in the city of Viterbo, but through the intrigues of Carlo d’Anglio, King of Naples, discord was sown among the members of the Sacred College and the prospect of any election grew more and more remote.

        “After almost three years, the mayor of Viterbo enclosed the cardinals in a palace, allowing them only strict living rations, until a decision would be made which would give to the Church its visible Head. At last, on September 1, 1271, Pope Gregory X was elected to the Chair of Peter.

        “During this long period of vacancy of the Apostolic See, vacancies also occurred in many dioceses throughout the world. In order that the priests and faithful might not be left without shepherds, bishops were elected and consecrated to fill the vacant sees. There were accomplished during this time twenty-one known elections and consecrations in various countries. The most important aspect of this historical precedent is that all of these consecrations of bishops were ratified by Pope Gregory X, who consequently affirmed the lawfulness of such consecrations.”

    Here are a few examples of the bishops thus consecrated at the time of vacancy of the Apostolic See:

        1) In Avranches, France, Radulfus de Thieville, consecrated November, 1269;
        2) In Aleria, Corsica, Nicolaus Forteguerra, consecrated 1270;
        3) In Antivari, Epiro (Northwestern Greece), Caspar Adam, O.P., consecrated 1270;
        4) In Auxerre, France, Erardus de Lesinnes, consecrated January, 1271;
        5) In Cagli, Italy, Jacobus, consecrated September 8, 1270;
        6) In Le Mans, France, Geoffridus d’Asse, consecrated 1270;
        7) In Cefalu, Sicily, Petrus Taurs, consecrated 1269;
        8) In Cervia, Italy, Theodoricus Borgognoni, O.P., consecrated 1270.

    At this point, those who oppose the consecration of traditional Catholic bishops in our times might argue that the historical precedent cited was 700 years ago and that Pope Pius XII, in view of the illicit consecrations of bishops in the schismatic National Church of China, decreed that any consecration of a bishop performed without papal mandate carried with it the penalty of ipso facto excommunication for the consecrator and the consecrated.

    In order to answer this objection, it is necessary to understand the nature of law. It is precisely from the lack of clear knowledge of the principles of law that many traditional Catholics fall into error. St. Thomas Aquinas defines law as an ordinance of right reason made for the common good promulgated by one who has authority in that society. Let us note “made for the common good.” In the time of Pope Pius XII, no bishop could lawfully consecrate another bishop without papal mandate, and this was for the common good of the Church. However, a law may, through the course of time and by a radical change in circuмstances, cease to be for the common good and as such, cease to be binding. A law may cease in two ways: extrinsic cessation (the legislator abrogates the law) and intrinsic cessation (the law ceases to be a law, as it has ceased to be for the common good).

    As Archbishop Amleto Giovanni Cicognani, Professor of Canon Law at the Pontifical Institute of Canon and Civil Law in Rome, taught in his commentary:

        “A law ceases intrinsically when its purpose ceases; the law ceases of itself... the law ceases extrinsically when it is revoked by the Superior.

        “Relative to the first way: The end (either of its purpose or its cause) of the law ceases adequately when all its purposes cease. The purpose of the law ceases contrariwise when an injurious law becomes either unjust or impossible of observance.”

    Thus, in our present times, the strict observance of Pope Pius XII’s decree on the prohibition of the consecration of bishops without papal mandate would become injurious to the salvation of souls. Without bishops, there would eventually be no priests, no Mass and no sacraments.

    Was this the intention of the legislator, Pope Pius XII? Would he have wished his decree to be so strictly interpreted as to eventually bring about the end of apostolic succession? Obviously not.

    Regarding another aspect of law, Archbishop Cicognani has explained — once again, in his Canon Law Commentary — the nature of epikeia:

        “A human lawgiver is never able to foresee all the individual cases to which his law will be applied. Consequently, a law, though just in general, may, taken literally, lead in some unforeseen circuмstances to results which agree neither with the intent of the lawgiver nor with natural justice, but rather contravene them. In such cases, the law must be expounded, not according to its wording, but according to the intent of the lawgiver.”

    The following authors provide us with additional definitions for this aspect of law — epikeia: Bouscaren and Ellis: Canon Law, 1953:

        Bouscaren and Ellis: Canon Law, 1953:
        “An interpretation exempting one from the law, contrary to the clear words of the law, and in accordance with the mind of the legislator.”

        Prummer: Moral Theology, 1955:
        “A favorable and just interpretation not of the law itself but of the mind of the legislator, who is presumed to be unwilling to bind his subjects in extraordinary cases where the observance of his law would cause injury or impose too severe a burden.”

        Besson: Catholic Encyclopedia, 1909:
        “A favorable interpretation of the purpose of the legislator, which supposes that he did not intend to include a particular case within the scope of his law.”

        Jone and Adelman: Moral Theology, 1951:
        “The reasonable taking for granted that the lawgiver would not wish to oblige in some particularly difficult case even though the case is obviously covered by the wording of the law.”

    A last consideration in this matter of Pope Pius XII’s decree is found in the very word law (in Latin, jus). It is derived from the Latin words justitia (justice) and justum (just), for all laws are meant to be good, equitable and just. This is the very characteristic of law. And of all laws, the ultimate law is the salvation of souls, “salus animarum, suprema lex.”

    Pope Pius XII stated in his address to the clerical students of Rome on June 24, 1939:

        “Canon law likewise is directed to the salvation of souls; and the purpose of all its regulations and laws is that men may live and die in the holiness given them by the grace of God.”

    In order to spiritually survive today, we need the graces of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the sacraments. But in order to have them, we need priests, and in order to have priests, we must have bishops.

    Let us thank Almighty God, Who, in His Providence, has foreseen the spiritual needs of His flock and has provided teachers and shepherds to carry on the mission of the Church “to teach all nations all things whatsoever He has commanded.”

    In Christo Jesu et Maria Immaculata,
    Most Rev. Mark A. Pivarunas, CMRI


    After re-reading this it seem His Excellency indicates that the expressed papal mandate is disciplinary.  But it has been argued very forcefully on this site that that the papal mandate is doctrinal.  I have learned that the Church nor the God Who found it asks or expects the impossible.  I believe the "mandate" means that bishops are consecrated who are in union with the Holy See and that the expressed verbal or written approval or request is not, and historically, has not always been given, yet these bishops were all Apostolic in the full sense of the word.  It seems here that his Excellency agrees with what I believed to be true.  The truly Catholic Bishops (non-heretical, schismatic or apostate) who were consecrated in unbroken line of authentic Bishops are Apostolic in every sense of the word but merely wait for this to be ratified by a living Pope when we get one.  Is that what His Excellency is teaching?

    It makes sense.  It would seem to needlessly complicate things to insist on the impossible when history shows that the mandate was not always expressed in any way yet the bishops consecrated during the interregnum were Apostolic and jurisdiction Bishops in the same way that their fellow Bishops were.  His Excellency speaks of them as teaching shepherds but our Traditional Bishops would, if the objectors are correct, really only be there in case of necessity, whether that be the occasion of death or a more liberal view of necessity.  Have I spoken incorrectly here?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The Papal Mandate
    « Reply #7 on: May 01, 2014, 12:56:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Example of the usage of the term "apostolic mandate":

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10notre.htm

    Quote
    Notre Charge Apostolique
    "Our Apostolic Mandate"

    Given by Pope Pius X to the French Bishops
    August 15, 1910

    Our Apostolic Mandate requires from Us that We watch over the purity of the Faith and the integrity of Catholic discipline.  ...


    In this case, clearly it is not meant to mean the same thing as a papal mandate (rescript).  cf. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12783b.htm
    and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_mandate


    Interesting.  I have heard that it is doctrinal certain that Bishops need the "Apostolic mandate".  And have heard the term "Papal Mandate" used in the same way.  

    So I'm guessing when speak of the mandate necessary (doctrinally or disciplinary) we need to speak of the term Papal Mandate exclusively.  It seems for the Church to continue the mandate is implicit or can be assumed on those Catholic Bishops in union with Eternal Rome who continue in a valid Apostolic line but would indeed need to be ratified by a living Pope when we get one.  This would mean that our Traditional Bishops are true Bishops in every sense of the word.  Or at least we have a moral certainty of this.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The Papal Mandate
    « Reply #8 on: May 01, 2014, 01:03:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Example of the usage of the term "apostolic mandate":

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10notre.htm

    Quote
    Notre Charge Apostolique
    "Our Apostolic Mandate"

    Given by Pope Pius X to the French Bishops
    August 15, 1910

    Our Apostolic Mandate requires from Us that We watch over the purity of the Faith and the integrity of Catholic discipline.  ...


    In this case, clearly it is not meant to mean the same thing as a papal mandate (rescript).  cf. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12783b.htm
    and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_mandate


    Those links, perhaps due to my ignorance are not clarifying anything to me in regards to jurisdiction.  What is your take on our traditional Catholic Bishops in union with the Chair of Saint Peter?  Are the Apostolic Bishops with a morally certain jurisdiction who are merely waiting to be ratified by the next living Pope or are they in a sense "disobeying" Pius XII?  Or are they act in a case of necessity or emergency meaning we should only avail ourselves of them in danger of death or some more liberal interpretation of "necessity" or "emergency"?  Are they acting against the expressed will of the Church?  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ambrose

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    The Papal Mandate
    « Reply #9 on: May 01, 2014, 03:00:15 PM »
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  • Hi LoT, my answers in blue.

    Lot wrote:

    Quote
    1.  Is it a doctrine of the Church that the Papal Mandate was always necessary?

    Yes, either explicitly or tacitly.

    2.  I hear the term "Papal" Mandate and "Apostolic" Mandate interchanged.  Do both terms mean exactly the same thing.  And what exactly do the terms mean?

    They mean that in order for a bishop to be a successor of the Apostles, that he must be sent by the Church.

    3.  Is a Papal Mandate a written permission or request by a valid Pope for a man to be made a bishop?

    No, it can be be his verbal order or written, but preferably the latter.  What it must be is the will of the Pope, the manner of his expressing his will is up to him.  It may also be his tacit approval without being his explicit approval.  

    4.  Has there indeed been times when the Papal Mandate was not expressly given and even times when there was no living Pope but the Bishops consecrated were valid Apostolic Bishops with Jurisdiction?

    Yes, tacit approval of the Pope is also legitimate.  This can be found in the early Church or in the numerous diocesan bishops cited by Bp. Pivarunas during interregnums.  If the lawful priests of a diocese acclaimed a certain bishop as their lawful bishop during a lengthy interregnum, such an act would appear to fulfill the requirements of a tacit approval of the Pope, and would be supplied by the Church.  Archbishop Lefebvre understood this principle clearly (See letter of Archbishop Lefebvre to Bp. Castro de Mayer HERE )


    5.  Can we distinguish between the doctrinal aspect of this issue and the disciplinary aspect(s)?  The first rule being the salvation of souls eliminates disciplinary aspects, when absolutely necessary, of the last living Pope?

    This is a matter of doctrine.  It falls under the Apostolicity of the Church.  This doctrine is enforced by the Popes by censuring those who transgress it.

    So there is a start.  This is not a debate or a battle.  Just inform me.  And if I make any valid points to the contrary give me credit rather than ignoring it.

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Online Ladislaus

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    The Papal Mandate
    « Reply #10 on: May 01, 2014, 03:18:04 PM »
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  • Could the Mandate Bishop Thuc received play a role in this crisis?

    I'm guessing so.

    I'm not promoting this group at all (have no idea who they are), but please read the information at the bottom of the page regarding the Bishop Thuc mandate:

    http://www.fraternitenotredame.com/2011_2_0/succession.php

    In an analogous situation with Monsignor D'Herbigny, Pius XI said:

    Quote
    "In a word, We grant you all the pontifical powers of the pope himself, that are not from uncommunicable divine right".



    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The Papal Mandate
    « Reply #11 on: May 02, 2014, 05:29:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Hi LoT, my answers in blue.

    Lot wrote:

    Quote
    1.  Is it a doctrine of the Church that the Papal Mandate was always necessary?

    Yes, either explicitly or tacitly.

    2.  I hear the term "Papal" Mandate and "Apostolic" Mandate interchanged.  Do both terms mean exactly the same thing.  And what exactly do the terms mean?

    They mean that in order for a bishop to be a successor of the Apostles, that he must be sent by the Church.

    3.  Is a Papal Mandate a written permission or request by a valid Pope for a man to be made a bishop?

    No, it can be be his verbal order or written, but preferably the latter.  What it must be is the will of the Pope, the manner of his expressing his will is up to him.  It may also be his tacit approval without being his explicit approval.  

    4.  Has there indeed been times when the Papal Mandate was not expressly given and even times when there was no living Pope but the Bishops consecrated were valid Apostolic Bishops with Jurisdiction?

    Yes, tacit approval of the Pope is also legitimate.  This can be found in the early Church or in the numerous diocesan bishops cited by Bp. Pivarunas during interregnums.  If the lawful priests of a diocese acclaimed a certain bishop as their lawful bishop during a lengthy interregnum, such an act would appear to fulfill the requirements of a tacit approval of the Pope, and would be supplied by the Church.  Archbishop Lefebvre understood this principle clearly (See letter of Archbishop Lefebvre to Bp. Castro de Mayer HERE )


    5.  Can we distinguish between the doctrinal aspect of this issue and the disciplinary aspect(s)?  The first rule being the salvation of souls eliminates disciplinary aspects, when absolutely necessary, of the last living Pope?

    This is a matter of doctrine.  It falls under the Apostolicity of the Church.  This doctrine is enforced by the Popes by censuring those who transgress it.

    So there is a start.  This is not a debate or a battle.  Just inform me.  And if I make any valid points to the contrary give me credit rather than ignoring it.



    We seem to agree here.  This would imply that our traditional bishops (consecrated in the line of Bishops who had the mandate) are valid apostolic successors in the same light as others were during interregnums waiting merely to be ratified by the next living Pope.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The Papal Mandate
    « Reply #12 on: May 02, 2014, 05:35:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Could the Mandate Bishop Thuc received play a role in this crisis?

    I'm guessing so.

    I'm not promoting this group at all (have no idea who they are), but please read the information at the bottom of the page regarding the Bishop Thuc mandate:

    http://www.fraternitenotredame.com/2011_2_0/succession.php

    In an analogous situation with Monsignor D'Herbigny, Pius XI said:

    Quote
    "In a word, We grant you all the pontifical powers of the pope himself, that are not from uncommunicable divine right".



    It is interesting that Thuc had permission to consecrate Bishops as he chose.  But I think all bishops consecrated but the original four bishops who had the mandate, Lefebvre, Thuc, De-Mayer and the fourth whose name I forget but had the mandate from John 23 who I believe was a material Pope at the time.

    Based upon past history our traditional bishops are the hierarchy waiting for ratification by the next living Pope.  This being the case they could elect a Pope.  They also could form an imperfect council and declare the See Vacant such a council would need to be approved by a Pope when we get one.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ambrose

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    The Papal Mandate
    « Reply #13 on: May 02, 2014, 07:23:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Hi LoT, my answers in blue.

    Lot wrote:

    Quote
    1.  Is it a doctrine of the Church that the Papal Mandate was always necessary?

    Yes, either explicitly or tacitly.

    2.  I hear the term "Papal" Mandate and "Apostolic" Mandate interchanged.  Do both terms mean exactly the same thing.  And what exactly do the terms mean?

    They mean that in order for a bishop to be a successor of the Apostles, that he must be sent by the Church.

    3.  Is a Papal Mandate a written permission or request by a valid Pope for a man to be made a bishop?

    No, it can be be his verbal order or written, but preferably the latter.  What it must be is the will of the Pope, the manner of his expressing his will is up to him.  It may also be his tacit approval without being his explicit approval.  

    4.  Has there indeed been times when the Papal Mandate was not expressly given and even times when there was no living Pope but the Bishops consecrated were valid Apostolic Bishops with Jurisdiction?


    Yes, tacit approval of the Pope is also legitimate.  This can be found in the early Church or in the numerous diocesan bishops cited by Bp. Pivarunas during interregnums.  If the lawful priests of a diocese acclaimed a certain bishop as their lawful bishop during a lengthy interregnum, such an act would appear to fulfill the requirements of a tacit approval of the Pope, and would be supplied by the Church.  Archbishop Lefebvre understood this principle clearly (See letter of Archbishop Lefebvre to Bp. Castro de Mayer HERE )


    5.  Can we distinguish between the doctrinal aspect of this issue and the disciplinary aspect(s)?  The first rule being the salvation of souls eliminates disciplinary aspects, when absolutely necessary, of the last living Pope?

    This is a matter of doctrine.  It falls under the Apostolicity of the Church.  This doctrine is enforced by the Popes by censuring those who transgress it.

    So there is a start.  This is not a debate or a battle.  Just inform me.  And if I make any valid points to the contrary give me credit rather than ignoring it.



    We seem to agree here.  This would imply that our traditional bishops (consecrated in the line of Bishops who had the mandate) are valid apostolic successors in the same light as others were during interregnums waiting merely to be ratified by the next living Pope.


    No, the traditional bishops are not in the same situation.  They are not claiming a See, and even if they were to claim a See they must have the support (acclamation) of the local clergy who have kept the Faith.  

    A great opportunity was missed when Bp. Castro de Mayer did not ensure that his diocese kept a legitimate bishop, as Archbishop Lefebvre had advised.

    Many other opportunities have been missed in this crisis, where diocesan clergy have seen the errors of the Conciliar church, and have not taken steps to ensure that their diocese continued to have a legitimate successor of the Apostles.  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The Papal Mandate
    « Reply #14 on: May 02, 2014, 08:42:24 AM »
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  • I don't think it is far-fetched to believe that the Diocese's have been reduced to one.  The world-wide diocese of Rome.  Physical territories are now particular flocks.  I believe that those consecrated in the line of those who had the mandate had the remaining Catholic clergy supporting them such as the SSPX priests supporting the Lefebvre consecrations.  We wait regularization by the next valid Pope.  

    I believe during these times when our focus is on physical territories we are talking about a disciplinary aspect that is no longer relevant.  When speaking of legitimate authority in these times we are talking about authority over souls apart from square miles or cities.  Being excessively focused on the disciplinary aspect of physical territories lead some to "take over" half the country.    

    I believe what has happened is bigger than what many orthodox scholars can conceive or figure from all the disciplinary aspects of canon law.  I believe some of the more knowledgeable and revered among have gotten bogged down in translating, interpreting and understanding the disciplinary aspects of canon law that they can't see the forest for the trees.  They have gotten so bogged down in technicalities that do not apply to our situation that they miss what is right before their eyes.  The hierarchical structure of the Catholic Church composed of the Catholic Bishops that still hold the faith and are ministering to the Catholic faithful.

    I believe the Catholic Hierarchy continues through the lines of Lefebre, Thuc, De-Mayer and the fourth Bishop whose name I have forgotten.  I believe the original four had the mandate and passed it on.  Any of those who are known to be traditional Bishops that are publicly schismatic, heretical and or apostate of course are not included.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church