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Poll

What do you hold about the sacramental validity of his orders and why?

Yes, he is certainly both a priest and a bishop
4 (21.1%)
Yes, he is certainly a priest, but certainly NOT a bishop
0 (0%)
Yes, he is certinaly a priest but doubtfully a bishop
0 (0%)
No, he is certainly neither a priest nor a bishop
2 (10.5%)
He is doubtfully a priest and doubtfully a bishop
9 (47.4%)
He is doubtfully a priest and certainly not a bishop
3 (15.8%)
He is doubtfully the bishop of Rome, but he is still the pope.
1 (5.3%)

Total Members Voted: 19

Author Topic: Is Francis a priest? Is he a bishop? Is he the pope?  (Read 1001 times)

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Offline Johannes

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Is Francis a priest? Is he a bishop? Is he the pope?
« on: April 20, 2025, 02:01:43 PM »
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  • Jorge Marie Bergoglio was ordained priest in the new rite in 1969; he was consecrated a bishop in the new rite of consecration in 1992.

    Per Canon Law - if the man elected is not a priest or a bishop he is to be ordained, consecrated or both by the Dean of the Sacred College.

    The man elected to the papacy will assume the Bishopric of Rome. Therefore, he must be a bishop - if not before his election, then immediately following it.

    A negative doubt is to be despised and is really no doubt at all.

    If you only have negative doubts about the new rite(s) of ordination and/or consecration - then you really have no doubt at all and therefore you can have no doubt that Francis is both a priest and a bishop.


    On the other hand...

    One is not permitted to have positive/probable doubts concerning the validity of Sacraments received/conferred.

    If he is a doubtful priest, he is a doubtful bishop,

    If he is doubtful bishop, then he has doubtfully fulfilled the criteria necessary to assume the Bishopric of the Roman See.

    While the man elected pope upon his acceptance, immediately assumes full and supreme jurisdiction - were all his acts are valid,

    in such a case study as those who entertain doubts over the new rites of ordination/consecration, but still hold him to be the pope, these validity-of-Jorge's-orders-doubters, would in effect, be holding that a man can be a valid pope without being the Bishop of Rome - or at least doubtfully being the Bishop of Rome.

    Therefore Option 7 [He is doubtfully the bishop of Rome, but he is still the pope.] is what you really believe.

    Can the pope be just a layman and not hold the Bishopric of Rome?

    Can the papacy be separated from the Bishopric or Rome?

    Can the pope be the Chief Shepherd when he isn't even a shepherd (bishop)?

    A doubtful pope is no pope. No?










    Offline ThatBritPapist

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    Re: Is Francis a priest? Is he a bishop? Is he the pope?
    « Reply #1 on: April 20, 2025, 02:29:49 PM »
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  • 7 minutes into my post and still tidying up...


    It's good to be back! Keep em coming :trollface:
    Apologies! I was meant to upvote the thread so it could garner traction, but im on my mobile and I misclicked. :fryingpan:
    Some People call me a Radical Traditionalist but others call me Shizo.....Oh well :trollface:


    Offline ThatBritPapist

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    Re: Is Francis a priest? Is he a bishop? Is he the pope?
    « Reply #2 on: April 20, 2025, 02:59:27 PM »
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  • Correct me if I am wrong, but you're a proponent of R&Rism, no? If you do not hold to R&Rism, I digress.

    If I'm honest I don't really have a pin point belief, for me its touch and go as i just want to find valid sacrament for my own soul and I see merits in R&R and Sede Positions. At the end of the day if youre a priest Ordained via a Valid +Thuc , +Mendez or +Lefebvre Line, whether Non Una cuм or not I will be happy man knowing I will have non-doubtful sacraments.
    Some People call me a Radical Traditionalist but others call me Shizo.....Oh well :trollface:

    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Is Francis a priest? Is he a bishop? Is he the pope?
    « Reply #3 on: April 20, 2025, 03:27:12 PM »
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  • The man is a lay false pope, is THE false prophet and may be the antichrist. He also is nearly certainly a religious Jew and we have proof that he is an ethnic Jew.
    Vatican 2 was worse than both WW1 and WW2 combined.
    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 
    Tried 6,000,000 pushups, only got to 271K

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Is Francis a priest? Is he a bishop? Is he the pope?
    « Reply #4 on: April 20, 2025, 04:11:24 PM »
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  • It is good to honest.

    But your answer brings up a few ancillary questions for me:

    The orthos have valid Eucharist, right?

    So, validity alone shouldn't really be your concern.

    The orthos don't have either;

    A) the Catholic Faith, or
    B) ordinary jurisdiction (necessary to forgive sins, perform sacramentally blessed marriages, licitly confect the Eucharist, preach, etc.)

    So, outside danger of death, what you are really "happy to know" is what you hope is a man with BOTH valid orders and jurisdiction

    The Trad clergy purport to operate on a mixture of supplied jurisdiction and epikeia.

    Prior to supplied jurisdiction being added to the 1917 code, it was an area of theological dispute - i.e., if it was possible, when, how, to whom, etc. And, how it was added to the code in no way suffices to exonerate the great liberties the Trad clergy have taken reading into it to "fit" the present crisis - IMO. How they are using supplied jurisdiction in an ordinary way is really just a private opinion of theirs and anyone who chooses to "use" them as "Sacrament mills" subscribes to their opinion. It is an opinion that would have severe consequences IF that opinion were wrong. Just more speculation. Just because I want something to be true, doesn't make it to true. No one can hold it dogmatically that the Trad clergy actually have the use of supplied jurisdiction in an ordinary way, the way they claim, and if you cannot hold it as dogmatically certain - then there is doubt. Everyone wants valid Sacraments. That Sacraments must have validity is dogma but having the necessary jurisdiction to confect/offer them is dogma too. Perhaps I will go back and dig up some old threads about this (as it is probable to get someone's panties in bunch).

    All the above aside, when you say you're "touch n go" about it - do you mean you're just undecided on whether Jorge is the pope? If you are then would not "a doubtful pope is no pope" be what you really believe? Who the pope is or isn't is a dogmatic fact, so one has an obligation to resolve the doubt in their own intellect, No? Not trying to be pushy, just trying to get a feel for where you are at.
    This "every Catholic layman needs to pore over and analyze Canon Law and countless theological opinions in order to properly practice the Catholic faith" is a bunch of hogwash and, quite frankly, potentially harmful to the faith. This is an unprecedented crisis and the faithful should be encouraged to receive the sacraments, which are necessary for salvation, from Catholic priests wherever they can be found..whether that be sedevacantist, independent, SSPX, Resistance, Eastern Catholic, etc.
    If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you [John 15:108


    Offline HeidtXtreme

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    Re: Is Francis a priest? Is he a bishop? Is he the pope?
    « Reply #5 on: April 20, 2025, 04:55:56 PM »
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  • I accidentally voted “certainly and priest and a Bishop” not what I wanted to choose, sorry.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Is Francis a priest? Is he a bishop? Is he the pope?
    « Reply #6 on: April 20, 2025, 05:14:23 PM »
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  • What sacraments are necessary for salvation (strictly speaking)?
    I'm not well read enough to get into necessity of means/precept, absolute/relative necessity..but Trent anathematizes those who say the sacraments are not necessary for salvation. At the very least Baptism would be absolutely necessary in order to be saved, for example in the case of infants, the retarded, a deathbed convert
    Quote
    That is NOT what the Christ nor his Church teaches. They must be "sent" (authorized/jurisdiction), otherwise we are obligated to hold them in suspicion and treat them as "thieves and robbers" John 10:1

    Viewed in that light, it could be argued that taking a nonchalant, one-size-sacramental-shoe-fits-all to those who have not been duly authorized to perform sacred functions is what may be harmful. It is all in the realm of speculation, and one opinion vs. another. The only fallback is Church teaching, but even then, without a pope to arbitrate these disputes, no resolution can be expected.
    Right, in ordinary times I could not receive the sacraments from a priest who is not a part of a diocese or a canonically recognized religious order or whatever else..I'm obviously not arguing that I could, and you know that. When you have a worldwide apostasy of both the churchmen and laity I would reckon a guess that some restrictions regarding jurisdiction, faculties, authority might be dispensed with because "salus animarum suprema lex"..the salvation of souls is the supreme law of the Church

    If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you [John 15:108

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Is Francis a priest? Is he a bishop? Is he the pope?
    « Reply #7 on: April 20, 2025, 06:13:11 PM »
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  • Isn't the Cassiciacuм Thesis a good answer to this?

    Considering the whole picture, the validity of Holy Orders is the least problematic part of the Pope question. The conciliar Popes were all valid bishops, up until John Paul II. Does it make them real Popes? I wouldn't think so. The biggest issue is their false teachings and heresies, in my opinion.


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Is Francis a priest? Is he a bishop? Is he the pope?
    « Reply #8 on: April 21, 2025, 12:00:55 AM »
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  • Actually, that in essence is what it is - saying the man holds the office of pope, but he is impeded from exercising it due to his lack of, [supply whatever you like, i.e, the Catholic faith, interior proper dispositions to accept the duties, him being a doubtful priest/bishop etc.]

    Sadly, IMO, it offers no solution but rather compounds the problem because it would essentially divide the papacy much in the same way that the new ecclesiology would divide the Church (Soul & Body). Just like God is one, so is everything else that flows from Him i.e., the faith, the Church, the papacy, the priesthood, etc. For all intents and purposes, it is R&R on roids.

    There is even a video by a Totalist video positing that "The Thesis" is Modernism veiled.

    Interesting "thesis" (no pun intended)
    Is the Thesis a form of Neo-Modernism?
    I agree with you 100%. But this is poll is built around a niche theological topic part sacramental, part moral, part dogmatic, part Canon Law. I am interested to see what answer(s) one can provide to that allows for separating the Bishopric of Rome from the papacy.

    I don't see a satisfatory solution with any of the theories. Sedevacantism, The Thesis, or R&R. 

    All things the same, if we consider that a cleric that only has the minor orders, or even a layman is elected Pope. What is his status in the time between the election and his ordination and consecration? Pope elect? Does he have any power at all before he receives Holy Orders? Is he "half Pope"? I have read some post around that tend to this idea.