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Author Topic: The Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the Authentic Magisterium  (Read 36927 times)

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Online Stubborn

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The Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the Authentic Magisterium
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2017, 08:55:24 AM »
Quote from: MMagdala
Quote from: Stubborn
I agree, the comments I made was going off of........
Quote from: An even Seven
Quote from: Stubborn
The quote from V1 does not say that "if the pope says such and such are part of divine revelation, we are bound to believe that such and such must be believed" does it?

Really? It most certainly does.





I know.  I was reaffirming your reply, in more expanded form.


Yes, as usual you made great points!

I would also like to point out that there is virtually no difference between the belief of sedevacantists and the conciliarists as far as they both share the same erroneous idea of what infallibility is.

The obvious difference is that the conciliarists demonstrate their faith in their idea of infallibility and blindly "follow the pope", while the sedevacantists demonstrate their utter lack of faith in their very same idea and conclude that since the popes have erred, they cannot be pope.
   
They both share the Masonic inspired idea of blind obedience.
 

Online Stubborn

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The Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the Authentic Magisterium
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2017, 09:00:18 AM »
Quote from: An even Seven
Quote from: Pax Vobis

This is not correct.  There are different levels of the magisterium.  I don't have any theologian manuals handy but I've read many articles on the topic.  The pope's infallibility, outside of 'ex cathedra' statements (which, mind you, is the only part of infalliblity directly explained by Vatican 1) is open for debate.  Many theologians have discussed the different 'levels of assent' which a catholic must give to writings or sermons from the pope, when a dogmatic decree is not involved.  This is ESPECIALLY the case when we have a pope whose catholicity is shaky at best.


Answer this please. Is the following statement true? Do we have to believe as true, what the living, authoritative, and permanent Magisterium says is divinely revealed? Or is Pope Leo in error?

Quote
Pope Leo XIII, "Satis Cognitum", (#9)Wherefore, as appears from what has been said, Christ instituted in the Church a living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium, which by His own power He strengthened, by the Spirit of truth He taught, and by miracles confirmed. He willed and ordered, under the gravest penalties, that its teachings should be received as if they were His own. As often, therefore, as it is declared on the authority of this (the Church) teaching that this or that is contained in the deposit of divine revelation, it must be believed by every one as true. If it could in any way be false, an evident contradiction follows; for then God Himself would be the author of error in man.


Once again, this is another out of context quote and once again, you are reminded  that there is no Church teaching that vindicates sedevacantism, so quoting Catholic teachings toward that end remains futile.

The conciliar church is not the Catholic Church.





Offline Pax Vobis

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The Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the Authentic Magisterium
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2017, 10:34:28 AM »
I would have to read the whole docuмent of "Satis Cognitum", along with some commentary, to understand the context.  Suffice it to say, there are plenty of theologians who discuss the various levels of infallibility as it pertains to the various ways in which the pope can 'teach'.  This is not a new concept.  

It would be better to read a commentary which strictly explains the magisterium than trying to pick this and that quote which uses the word 'magisterium'.  That is not a good way to do research.

Offline drew

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The Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the Authentic Magisterium
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2017, 03:43:49 PM »
Quote from: An even Seven
Answer this please. Is the following statement true? Do we have to believe as true, what the living, authoritative, and permanent Magisterium says is divinely revealed? Or is Pope Leo in error?

Quote
Pope Leo XIII, "Satis Cognitum", (#9)Wherefore, as appears from what has been said, Christ instituted in the Church a living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium, which by His own power He strengthened, by the Spirit of truth He taught, and by miracles confirmed. He willed and ordered, under the gravest penalties, that its teachings should be received as if they were His own. As often, therefore, as it is declared on the authority of this teaching that this or that is contained in the deposit of divine revelation, it must be believed by every one as true. If it could in any way be false, an evident contradiction follows; for then God Himself would be the author of error in man.


This quotation taken from Satis Cognitum is sufficient in itself without further contextual framing to destroy the arguments of sedevacantism, and yet, here it is be offered by a sedevacantist as evidence in support of his position.  Pope Leo is not in error but the sedevacantist understanding of this quotation most certainly is .  

This quote describes an attribute of Christ’s Church.  There is in Christ’s Church a “living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium…. strengthened by the Spirit of truth.”  The church that sedevacantists belong to does not have this attribute and has no way of ever recovering it or correcting the problem.  This fact should give every sedevacantist a sobering slap in the face.  They belong to a church that cannot be the Church founded by Jesus Christ.  They have arrived at a dead end and they need to retrace their steps.  

Sedevacantists misunderstand this passage because they do not understand the Magisterium of the Church, and this is primarily because they make the pope the rule of faith rather than dogma.   In this quote Pope Leo is referring to the infallible Magisterium of the Church. This is clearly seen because he says, “If it could in any way be false, an evident contradiction follows; for then God Himself would be the author of error in man.”  The quote is referring to “its teachings.”  It is not the pope’s teachings.  The “its” refers to the Church’ teachings that is taken from the “deposit of divine revelation” which has already been entrusted to the Church.  “He who heareth you heareth Me” refers only to this infallible Magisterium of the Church because God cannot possibly be the “author of error in man.”  

The attributes of the Church are Authority, Infallibility, and Indefectibility.  These three attributes directly correspond to the three functions of the Church identified by St. Pius X in Pascendi, that is: to rule, to teach, and to worship.  The pope is the person authorized to engage these attributes.  He possesses these attributes only accidentally for when he leaves the office by death or resignation, they do not leave with him.   The attribute of Infallibility to teach without the possibility of error is called the Magisterium.  It is engaged either in an extra-ordinary mode, or in an ordinary and universal mode.  In either case when it is engaged it becomes everywhere, for all time, and for all people, without exception, the infallible teaching of God’s truth.  

The word “magisterium” is not used univocally.  There is another sense in which the word is applied that refers to the teaching of churchmen by their grace of state.  This teaching is not infallible and cannot be followed unconditionally.  It must be accepted with a prudent and conditional assent because it is the teaching of men.  When that human teaching is from the pope it is called the authentic ordinary magisterium.  The difference between the Magisterium of the Church grounded upon the attribute of Infallibility which Christ endowed his Church and the teaching magisterium of churchmen based upon their grace of state is one of KIND and not one of DEGREE.  Why do most sedevacantists confuse these two distinct usages of the same term?  It is because they make the pope the rule of faith.

The teaching of Vatican II is the teaching of churchmen.  Pope John XXIII who opened the council, Pope Paul VI who closed the council, and theological note published by the council unequivocally state that no infallible authority was engaged at the council.  It is at most an extra-ordinary engagement of the most ordinary magisterium in the history of the Church.  Every novelty taught by Vatican II is purely the teaching of churchmen by their grace of state.  The strongest binding of its teachings is “religious observance” which was imposed by Pope Paul VI.  “Religious” obedience is that which is owed to the pope teaching by his grace of state.  It is always and everywhere a conditional obedience proximally governed by the virtue of Religion.  No one can be obedient to anyone, including the pope, in violation of the virtue of Religion without sin. When the pope engages the infallible Magisterium of the Church, the teaching is dogma which constitutes the “formal objects of divine and Catholic faith.”
Quote from: Pope Paul VI
“There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church's infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.” Pope Paul VI, General Audience, December 1, 1966, published in the L'Osservatore Romano January 21, 1966


Sedevacantists make the teaching of men the teaching of God when they overthrow dogma as the rule of faith and replace it by making the pope the rule of faith.  Then “religious” submission to whatever the pope say or does is given the same authority that by nature belongs only to dogma, God’s revealed truth.  That is clearly what they do when they demand that faithful Catholics must obediently submit to teachings that either directly or indirectly oppose the “deposit of divine revelation” on the authority of the authentic magisterium of the pope.

Also, for the record, in Pope Pius XII’s Humani Generis when he teaches that obedience is owed to the “ordinary magisterium” in the sense that “he who heareth you heareth Me,” the pope is actually referring to the ordinary and universal Magisterium.  This is evident in that every single example given without exception in the encyclical where this obedience is commanded is the universal teaching of the Church from her “deposit of divine revelation” and is contrasted with modern novelties.  The word, “novel” or its cognates occurs six times in the encyclical and is always severely censored.  

The only cure for this is to return to the proper understanding of the nature of Dogma as Dogma.  This is why Fr. Leonard Feeney is so important.  The very foundation of his theology is to treat Dogma as the formal object of divine and Catholic faith, to treat it as the true irreformable revelation of God who can neither deceive nor be deceived.  Those who follow his enemies and reject Dogma as the formal object of divine and Catholic faith by reducing it to theological maxims and meaningless man-made formulas are open every error possible.  Sedevacantism is just one example.

Drew

The Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the Authentic Magisterium
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2017, 06:59:15 PM »
Where is infallibility today? Is the CMRI infallible? Is Saint Gertrude the Great infallible? They surely don't believe the Novus Ordo is infallible because they reject it as a false sect. It seems to me the sedevacantists must either claim that sedevacantism is infallible or that there is no more infallibility and the Church has lost that attribute.