CathInfo.com

Quote from: Stubborn

 those who lost their faith or otherwise embrace those heresies, destroy their own souls of their own free will - we are the only ones that can ever destroy our souls - Deo Gratias for that I say!

When we die, all men will be judged in terms of whether they were Catholic or not, if they were not Catholic they will be condemned because they did not receive the doctrine of Christ, they received rather the doctrine of a man, concerning Christ or concerning something else.

Stubborn, it's not my intention to get into another 20+ page debate of just me and you going back and forth. We already did that.

I do however want to address this obsession you have with pointing out that only each individual will be responsible for their own damnation, as if any Catholic would disagree with this. Yet you bring it up a lot.

When someone uses terms such as "soul-destroying" etc...in reference to the teachings and practices and docuмents of the VII "church", they are not implying that the teachings and practices themselves are literally going to throw souls into hell. An abstract idea cannot do something like that. The point of calling these teachings and practices "soul-destroying" is to point out the damage that will be done by someone adhering to and believing in said teachings. It takes an act of will to believe in these teachings and engage in the practices. Someone may not grasp the errors in them, but they erode one's belief in Catholic teaching. What a person believes very much determines their ultimate destination in eternity. Thus they are "soul-destroying" etc... because people choose to believe in them. For people who choose not to believe or practice such things, they have no effect.

Well then, see, we agree on this ha ha! The reason that you say my opinions  are non-Catholic heresies will likely remain a mystery.

The reason I bring it up a lot is because most (all?) sedevacantists wrongly insist that we are bound submit to the pope even when he wants us to do something that offends God, as if we are bound to abandon all reason, stop thinking entirely and give our minds over to the pope's wishes lest we fail in our bound duty to submit to him, even if submitting to him means losing the faith and falling into heresy if that's what he wants.

If that were the case then yes, we could blame the pope at our particular Judgement - and end up in hell anyway, but since such beliefs are wrong, and since there are many sedevacantists out there who say that they believe it actually is truth, I strive to remind them what the truth of the matter is.

It would be against the Church's Dogma of indefectibility that a Pope could set up Universal Customs and Practices that are heretical and
 soul-destroying thus making it something that it's not.

Does current church law FORCE anyone to attend the novus ordo?  No.
Does church law FORCE anyone to accept V2?  No.
FORCE anyone to receive communion in the hand?  No.
FORCE anyone to eat meat on fridays?  No.
Use planned parenthood?  Go to mass on Sat night?  Get an annulment?
No, no and no.

There is nothing in the 'conciliar' church that forces anyone to sin.  Nothing which changes church doctrine.  Nothing which changes the Truth.

Now, does current church law make 'allowances, permissions, excuses, etc, etc' so that people can violate the 'spirit' of the law?  Yes.

Does chuch officials promote, encourage, condone and advertise an "easy" way for Catholics to "live their faith"?  Yes.  Is such an "easy" way a path to damnation?  Yes.  But Church teaching does not change; only the CHURCHMEN change.

Christ warned us of wolves in sheep's clothing.  Wolves do not violate the indefectibility of the Church; they only prove it's necessity.

Quote from: Stubborn

I distinguish just fine because I distinguish according to the Catholic Church's teachings in the matter.

Fine. Tell me the difference between the penalties for committing a mortal sin, and the penalties for Heresy.

The difference is that the Church, because the sin is public, has attached the censure of excommunication to the sin of heresy. This means the heretic, while still having the obligations of practicing the Catholic faith i.e. still has to go to Mass on Sundays for example, but has lost the benefits of a Catholic i.e. cannot receive communion, cannot be Godparent, etc. - in short, the excommunicant is banned from participating in the community of the faithful due to his public sin.    

You cannot impose this censure upon anyone, nor can I - in the case of the pope, no one can impose this censure upon him. If sedevacantists ever realize this, they will need to find another distraction to occupy their time with.

Quote from: Stubborn

The issue is not me, after all, I am not guilty of creating this crisis. The issue is, (as if this were even possible) that unless the pope is officially proclaimed to have lost his office for the entire world to know (instead of a relatively minuscule number of sedevacantists), then no matter what he does, he is the pope, just as Pope St. Pius X and XII decreed.

 
I didn't say you created the crisis.
Please cite a teaching that says that a Pope can retain his Office if he has become a public heretic. Please cite a teaching that says a public heretic can attain the Office of the Papacy (what has happened since JXXIII). Remember to cite a teaching that has those words, because I can cite teachings to the opposite that have those words.

Far as I know, there are no teachings worded like that.
 
Although the dogma does state that it is altogether necessary that every human creature "be subject to the pope", not that "we must submit to the pope even when he wants us to do something that offends God" - as most sedevacantists foolishly insist.

The dogma teaches that we must be subject to the pope for our hope of salvation - sedevacantists add the exception; "unless you don't believe he is the pope" - they then make their exception to the dogma, dogma itself while insisting they're doing no such thing. How is it possible to argue the sedevacantist opinion at all when the sedevacantists hold such a position as that?

We cannot be subject to him if we opine he is not the pope - but per the dogma, we must be subject to him if we want to get to heaven. This is my main reason to believe he is the pope - I cannot get to heaven unless I am his subject. You and the sedevacantists are wholly content to have figured out how to get to heaven without being subject to him, the rest of us haven't figured out how you're able to do that, when it's something we know we cannot do.

Quote from: Stubborn

The people were never bound to submit to the wishes of the pope in his errors. Look at it this way, you don't go along with those errors - why do you suppose most everyone else does?

First, these are not just private errors. Setting up an evil anti-mass and solemnly promulgating a heretical council are very much public. So is practicing these things and furthering these doctrines.
Second, the Pope is the unifying factor of faith in the Catholic Church. To be subject to him, affirms that he has the True faith and a Catholic is in communion with him.
So whether someone calls him a heretic or staunch defender of truth doesn't matter. If you call him pope you are in Catholic Communion with him no matter what you say.

You just don't get it.
There is nothing to stop a pope from setting up an evil mass and etc.

Per the OP, you, like so many who were taught the same error, do not understand what infallibility is - because you were taught that it is something which it is not.
 
All you need to do is believe reality, believe your own eyes and you will begin to see the truth of the matter. Per the dogma, no one gets to heaven unless they are the popes' subject. Period. There is no way around this no matter what you think because they did not leave any provisos whatsoever.

 

A couple of questions.
1. Is Francis a member of the Catholic Church?
2. Does he profess the true Faith?

No and no. That is my opinion and I'm sure that is also your opinion and likely is the opinion of everyone here at CI and likely 99.9% of the trad population on earth.

We can all together or individually jump up and down about it, stomp our feet, docuмent in triplicate each of his errors to serve as indisputable proof, have video evidence, take it to the Vatican, show it to the entire hierarchy, post it all on youtube, facebook, twitter and broadcast it on every TV, internet and radio channel on earth 24 hours a day for 10 years - and he would still be the pope. All everyone would have accomplished is a colossal waste of time while risking losing their soul in the process - for no reason at all.