Author Topic: The Ordinary Infallible Magisterium and the Authentic Magisterium (Read 39098 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #40 on:** January 17, 2017, 06:59:54 AM »

An even Seven, you have embraced sedevacantism which obviously is a doctrine of man, same as Protestantism is a doctrine of man. Everything you read you make revolve around this doctrine which you've wholly embraced.

Best thing you can do is to find a sedevacantist pope or sedevacantist father or even a sedevacantist saint and quote them to vindicate your sedevacantism, but please, stop quoting from Catholic popes, fathers and saints - they do not teach sedevacantism, nor can one logically conclude sedevacantism from any of their teachings.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #41 on:** January 17, 2017, 11:15:22 AM »

An Even Seven, your failure to distinguish causes you to err.

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Stubborn's errors- "Once a Catholic Always a Catholic"

Church Teaching:
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943:
“For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

True, a heresy can sever a man from the Church. But...only AFTER the CHURCH has declared the man excommunicated, after DUE PROCESS.

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Stubborn's errors- The Magisterium can err and be evil.

Church Teaching:
Pope Leo XIII, Caritatis Studium (#6) July 25, 1898: The Magisterium “could by no means commit itself to erroneous teaching.”

Define 'magisterium'. There are two different kinds. The universal (which is "what has always been taught") and the ordinary (which is the current ecclesiastical authorities). The ordinary is ONLY infallible if it AGREES with "what has always been taught".

Pt 2: We already have EVERY doctrine we NEED to be saved. THERE ARE NO NEW DOCTRINES; THERE ARE NO NEW ARTICLES OF FAITH; THERE ARE NO NEW CATHOLIC TEACHINGS. There are only refinements, reiterations and clarifications of doctrine.

The point is, if the ordinary, fallible magisterium veers off the doctrinal path, if any catholic knows his faith, he'll see it happen. If something differs, then it's wrong. The understanding of the magisterium is not rocket science.

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Stubborn's errors- We only need to be subject to the Roman Pontiff when he is defining Dogma.

Church Teaching:
Pope Pius IX, "Quanta Cura" (#5) December 8, 1864:Nor can we pass over in silence the audacity of those who, not enduring sound doctrine, contend that "without sin and without any sacrifice of the Catholic profession assent and obedience may be refused to those judgments and decrees of the Apostolic See, whose object is declared to concern the Church's general good and her rights and discipline, so only it does not touch the dogmata of faith and morals." But no one can be found not clearly and distinctly to see and understand how grievously this is opposed to the Catholic dogma of the full power given from God by Christ our Lord Himself to the Roman Pontiff of feeding, ruling and guiding the Universal Church.

One must be subject to the Pope in all things, save sin. The novelties of V2 are not catholic, therefore they are rejected. V2 does not follow the universal magisterium, therefore it's rejected. V2 does not deal with dogma, or infallibility, or church law. It never claimed to. Anyone that follows the church leaders into error does so at their own volition. No one in Rome is forcing them into error.

Stubborn · « **Reply #42 on:** January 17, 2017, 12:42:43 PM »

Quote from: An even Seven

1) Stubborn's errors- "Once a Catholic Always a Catholic"

2) Stubborn's errors- The Magisterium can err and be evil.

3) Stubborn's errors- We only need to be subject to the Roman Pontiff when he is defining Dogma.

1) Any Catholic who ended up apostatizing or became a heretic can receive the sacrament of penance whereby the censure of excommunication is removed and the sin is forgiven. One who is not Catholic cannot receive the sacraments. This Catholic teaching is all you need to accept. This is how we understand once a Catholic always a Catholic.

Yes, there are times when by an official papal decree, only the pope or bishop can remove the censure - yet even under those circuмstances, if the heretic is in danger of death, that heretic can have any priest absolve him in the sacrament of penance or extreme unction. Again, one who is not Catholic cannot receive the sacraments.

But whatever the circuмstance, no one has sentenced any pope with the censure of excommunication for heresy or any other sin - and YOU saying heretics are not Catholics is like doing a rain dance for rain - it means nothing, absolutely nothing to everyone.

2) The Hierarchy can, has and continues to err - and from my perspective, every single one of them are evil. But you're using "the magisterium" in a context which makes no sense.

"The Magisterium" is nothing other than the Church teaching us, that is what the Church does. The Church was established by Christ to teach us how to get to heaven. So you need to replace "The Magisterium" with "The Hierarchy", then it's not only true, it actually makes sense when you say that I say: "The Hierarchy can err and be evil."

3) We need to be subject to the pope and obey him as the pope in all those religious matters under his authority always - UNLESS he should command something which is sinful. Pax Vobis spells it right out in plain English.........

Quote from: Pax Vobis

One must be subject to the Pope in all things, save sin. The novelties of V2 are not catholic, therefore they are rejected. V2 does not follow the universal magisterium, therefore it's rejected. V2 does not deal with dogma, or infallibility, or church law. It never claimed to. Anyone that follows the church leaders into error does so at their own volition. No one in Rome is forcing them into error.

Stubborn · « **Reply #43 on:** January 18, 2017, 05:53:01 AM »

Quote from: An even Seven

Quote from: Pax Vobis
True, a heresy can sever a man from the Church. But...only AFTER the CHURCH has declared the man excommunicated, after DUE PROCESS.

Pope Pius VI, Auctorem fidei, Aug. 28, 1794:
“47. Likewise, the proposition which teaches that it is necessary, according to the natural and divine laws, for either excommunication or for suspension, that a personal examination should precede, and that, therefore, sentences called ‘ipso facto’ have no other force than that of a serious threat without any actual effect” – false, rash, pernicious, injurious to the power of the Church, erroneous.

Please see Pope Pius VI's foot note for #47 below:

XLVII. Similarly, one that says to be necessary, according to the natural and divine laws, that the excommunication with regard to the suspension, should precede a personal examination, and that therefore, the so-called ipso facto judgments have no other force than a serious threat without any actual effect;

Quote from: An even Seven

Quote from: Pax Vobis
Define 'magisterium'. There are two different kinds. The universal (which is "what has always been taught") and the ordinary (which is the current ecclesiastical authorities). The ordinary is ONLY infallible if it AGREES with "what has always been taught".

Vatican Council Sess. 3 Ch. 3: Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium.
The Magisterium can never err. I challenge you to find a Church Teaching that uses any adjective whatsoever to describe the Magisterium, which says it can err. If we find an error in any source whatsoever, we know that it is not of the Magisterium.

Your quote from V1 is also erroneous since it does not say nor imply and is impossible to conclude from your quote that "the magisterium can never err". What you quoted is telling us is when the magisterium, that is, teachings of the Church, are infallible, binding under pain of mortal sin, which I made bold for you.

FYI, "her ordinary and universal magisterium" is the same as saying: "Church teachings that have been taught always and everywhere since the time of the Apostles." These are infallible.

And etc. ad nausem. Stop attempting to use Catholic teaching to vindicate sedevacantism - it can't be done.

Stubborn · « **Reply #44 on:** January 18, 2017, 06:26:04 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: An even Seven
Quote from: Pax Vobis
True, a heresy can sever a man from the Church. But...only AFTER the CHURCH has declared the man excommunicated, after DUE PROCESS.

Pope Pius VI, Auctorem fidei, Aug. 28, 1794:
“47. Likewise, the proposition which teaches that it is necessary, according to the natural and divine laws, for either excommunication or for suspension, that a personal examination should precede, and that, therefore, sentences called ‘ipso facto’ have no other force than that of a serious threat without any actual effect” – false, rash, pernicious, injurious to the power of the Church, erroneous.

Please see Pope Pius VI's foot note for #47 below:

XLVII. Similarly, one that says to be necessary, according to the natural and divine laws, that the excommunication with regard to the suspension, should precede a personal examination, and that therefore, the so-called ipso facto judgments have no other force than a serious threat without any actual effect;

Sorry about that. Posting while working I simply posted the same thing as you and while rushing, messed up the whole thing in the process.

This does not mean the pope is not the pope due to his supposed ipso facto excommunication. It simply means that ipso facto excommunication is indeed a serious censure per #46 which precedes this condemnation - which is why #47 begins with "Similarly".

XLVI: The proposition asserting that "the effect of excommunication is merely exterior, because by its nature it merely excludes from exterior communion with the Church"; as if excommunication were not a spiritual punishment, binding in heaven, obligating souls,—false, dangerous, etc.

All the excommunicated person needs to do to obtain removal from the censure and forgiveness - matters not whether the person is the pope or a pauper - is go to confession where the censure is first lifted, then the penitent is absolved.