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Author Topic: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days  (Read 4353 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
« on: December 17, 2022, 05:28:25 AM »
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  • I've thought about this and offer it for comment. 

    The prophet Daniel says this:


    Quote
    Daniel 12

    [11] And from the time when the continual sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination unto desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days, [12] Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh unto a thousand three hundred thirty-five days.

    The Haydock commentary on these verses says this:


    Quote
    Ver. 11. Days: thirteen more than three and a half, as we reckon. The odd number might be neglected, ver. 7. The abomination continued three years and ten days, but the sacrifices had been discontinued six months and three days before. See Chap. viii. 14. If Daniel speak of lunar years, as it is probable, the difference would only be two days. (Calmet) — From the abolishing of the mass as much as possible, and the practice of heresy and abomination, unto the end of antichrist’s persecution, 1290 days shall elapse. (Worthington)


    Ver. 12. Days. After the three years and a half, fifty-eight days will occur before the death of Antiochus, when Judas will disperse the troops of his three generals. (Calmet) — Some respite will be granted for forty-five days, during which sinners may repent. (Menochius) — It is difficult to say why forty-five days are here added to the former number. We are content to depart with Daniel, (ver. 9.) without searching any farther into these high mysteries. (Worthington)



    Haydock interprets this 45 day period after the abomination of desolation and the abolishment of the mass a "respite . . . during which sinners may repent."

    As we know, Pope Benedict XVI not only issued Summorum Pontificuм but also removed the "for one and for all" from the Novus Ordo. I have always believed that the "for one and for all" clearly invalidated the Novus Ordo mass, effectively abolishing the mass for the overwhelming majority of Catholics and probably 95% or more of the Catholic churches around the globe: large swathes of Catholics would have had no mass valid mass to attend, no matter what one thinks of the Novus Ordo with the correct formulation for the consecration of the wine, "for one and for many."

    Perhaps we are in the 45 day "respite" after the abomination of desolation noted in Haydock. 

    Thoughts?

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
    « Reply #1 on: May 02, 2023, 08:29:47 AM »
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  • Theodotion was a Jєωιѕн scholar who translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek. His Greek version of the Book of Daniel was the one used by the Church. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:


    Quote
    Before this revision by Origen, the text of the Septuagint was regarded as so unreliable, because of its freedom in rendering, and of the alterations which had been introduced into it etc., that, during the second century of our era, it was discarded by the Church, which adopted in its stead the Greek version of Daniel made in that same century by the Jєωιѕн proselyte, Theodotion. This version of Theodotion was apparently a skilful revision of the Septuagint by means of the original text, and is the one embodied in the authentic edition of the Septuagint published by Sixtus V in 1587.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04621b.htm

    I found a translation of Theodotion's rendering of Daniel 12:11 here:


    Quote
    Theodotion's rendering is, "From the time of the change of the daily sacrifice (ἐν δελεχισμός) and the abomination of desolation set up ("given," δοθήσεται) is a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

    https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/tpc/daniel-12.html

    In Daniel 7:25, it states:


    Quote
    And he shall speak words against the High One, and shall crush the saints of the most High: and he shall think himself able to change times and laws, and they shall be delivered into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time.



    St. Jerome understand this as follows:


    Quote
    ". . .And he shall crush the saints of the Most High, and will suppose himself to be able to alter times and laws." The Antichrist will wage war against the saints and will overcome them; and he shall exalt himself to such a height of arrogance (A) as to attempt changing the very laws of God and the sacred rites as well. He will also lift himself up against all that is called God, subjecting all religion to his own authority."

    https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_02_text.htm


    St. Jerome also says this on Daniel 12:11-12 :


    Quote
    Verse 11. "And from the time that the continual sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination unto desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." Porphyry asserts that these one thousand two hundred and ninety days were fulfilled in the desolation of the Temple in the time of Antiochus, and yet both Josephus and the Book of Maccabees, as we have said before, record that it lasted for only three years. From this circuмstance it is apparent that the three and a half years are spoken of in connection with the time of the Antichrist, for he is going to persecute the saints for three and a half years, or one thousand two hundred and ninety days, and then he shall meet his fall on the famous, holy mountain. And so from the time of the removal of the endelekhismos, which we have translated as "continual sacrifice," i.e., the time when the Antichrist shall obtain possession of the world (variant: the city) and forbid the worship (A) of God, unto the day of his death the three and a half years, or one thousand two hundred and ninety days, shall be fulfilled. (730).

    Verse 12. "Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh |151 unto a thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." He means that he is blessed who waits for forty-five days beyond the predetermined number, for it is within that period that our Lord and Savior is to come in His glory. But the reason for the forty-five days of inaction after the slaying of the Antichrist is a matter which rests in the knowledge of God; unless, of course, we say that the rule of the saints is delayed in order that their patience may be tested. Porphyry explains this passage in the following way, that the forty-five days beyond the one thousand two hundred and ninety signify the interval of victory over the generals of Antiochus, or the period when Judas Maccabaeus fought with bravery and cleansed the Temple and broke the idol to pieces, offering blood-sacrifices in the Temple of God. He might have been correct in this statement if the Book of Maccabees had recorded that the Temple was polluted over a period of three and a half years instead of just three years (I Mace. 4).



    So, using Theodotion's translation, and considering the Haydock commentary referenced in the opening post and Jerome's gloss, we have the following scenario: the or a "antichrist" changes the divine liturgy or the Church's law of worship (the "daily sacrifice") for a period of 1290 days, after which comes a period of 45 days of respite (extending the period to 1335 days). 

    Which would be an interesting resemblance to what happened: the change and imposition of the Novus Ordo and the false translation in the vernacular in the consecration of the wine ("for all" instead of "for many"), and then some 40 or 45 years after the restoration of the proper translation of the Mass in the vernacular of the consecration of the wine by Benedict XVI ("for many"). 

    More food for thought. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
    « Reply #2 on: May 02, 2023, 08:33:02 AM »
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  • Correcting some errors in the topic and the op: of course, the consecration formula is "for you and for many," not "for one and for many." Sorry about that. :facepalm:

    And the 45 days of respite brings us to 1335 days, not 1345. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
    « Reply #3 on: May 02, 2023, 08:41:18 AM »
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  • I've never heard that these "days" are symbolic but literal.  So when did the 45 days start and why?  We're way past 3.5 years (i.e. 1,335 days) since +Benedict's actions.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
    « Reply #4 on: May 02, 2023, 09:13:07 AM »
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  • To me, everything points to 2028/2029.  Roncalli usurped the papacy in 1958.  Add 70 years.  Our Lady made the request for the consecration of Russia on June 13, 1929, and then Our Lord later appeared to Sister Lucy and complained that the Popes were following the example of the Kings of Frances.  So it was 100 years to the day after Our Lord's request for them to consecrate France to His Sacred Heart, the Kings were deposed, and then about 3.5 years later the King was beheaded.  I see the same timeline playing out here.  Some great unravelling will begin to happen starting June 13, 2029, and about 3.5 years later, in early 2033 is when the Church will be finally restored.


    Offline Mr G

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    Re: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
    « Reply #5 on: May 02, 2023, 09:26:01 AM »
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  • To me, everything points to 2028/2029.  ...  I see the same timeline playing out here.  Some great unravelling will begin to happen starting June 13, 2029, and about 3.5 years later, in early 2033 is when the Church will be finally restored.
    That might explain why the UN has set 2030 as the year that they want all their goals to be achieved.
    THE 17 GOALS | Sustainable Development (un.org)

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
    « Reply #6 on: May 02, 2023, 10:28:59 AM »
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  • That might explain why the UN has set 2030 as the year that they want all their goals to be achieved.
    THE 17 GOALS | Sustainable Development (un.org)
    .

    The 2030 date is interesting also in that it is the 2,000th anniversary of the beginning of the public life of Christ. Could this be the beginning of the public life of antichrist, who will reign for 3.5 years (as Christ's public life was pretty close to 3.5 years as well)?

    I don't like getting too speculative about things like this, but it's an interesting thing to think about.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
    « Reply #7 on: May 02, 2023, 01:43:27 PM »
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  • Ladislaus:  Yes, I agree with your time, about 2030.  We shall see.  I would rather not see or experience those times, but, God's Will.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
    « Reply #8 on: May 02, 2023, 01:52:58 PM »
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  • I've never heard that these "days" are symbolic but literal.  So when did the 45 days start and why?  We're way past 3.5 years (i.e. 1,335 days) since +Benedict's actions. 

    Hi, Pax. I do not view these days as literal. They are related to the cessation of the sacrifice and abomination of desolation in Daniel 9:27 (which is inn the midst of the "week," the last week of Daniel's 70, and they are not literal there.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
    « Reply #9 on: May 02, 2023, 01:57:21 PM »
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  • There is a literal meaning behind the 3.5 years since this is the exact time of antichrist's reign.  No more, no less. 

    Outside of this, any symbolism is anyone's guess.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
    « Reply #10 on: May 04, 2023, 02:34:31 PM »
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  • A paperback book, "The Holy Eucharist". Alphonsus De Liguori, by Rev. Eugene Grimm, priest of the congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer page 22"It is true, it will cease....the Sacrifice of the Mass will by suspended for three years six months according to the Prophecy of Daniel. " And from the time when the continual sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination unto desolation shall be set up, ....

    New Order have taken this and in their own words have said, "Oh, this is in the Old testament, not for our times.".  Well, I don't agree with New order.  I do believe we are very close to the 3 and a half years


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
    « Reply #11 on: May 10, 2023, 08:44:32 AM »
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  • There is a literal meaning behind the 3.5 years since this is the exact time of antichrist's reign.  No more, no less. 

    Outside of this, any symbolism is anyone's guess.

    Pax,

    As noted, I disagree with you. Yet I concede that you could cite many Church fathers, saints and theologians who agree with you, so you're view is certainly well supported. 

    I'll give my reasons for my disagreement. 

    All of this goes back to the 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 9. There are three periods within that 70 weeks, with a week understood to be a period of 70 years (with the exception of a longer last week, which I argue below is more than 7 years): a period of 7 weeks (from the command to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem to its rebuilding), then a period of 62 weeks until Christ is slain, and then the final last week. The 62 weeks after the first 7 weeks, or the 69th  week of Christ's slaying, is clear in Scripture:


    Quote
    Daniel 9

    25 Know thou therefore, and take notice: that from the going forth of the word, to build up Jerusalem again, unto Christ the prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: and the street shall be built again, and the walls in straitness of times. 26 And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny him shall not be his. And a people with their leader that shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war the appointed desolation. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fail: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end. 


    The last week, the 70th week, the covenant is confirmed. Christ is the "he" confirming the covenant. I believe this is the week when the Church spreads the Gospel through out the world. In any event, this is during the last week, the "week" after Christ was slain: it would comprise all history since Christ's slaying, which is much more than 7 years. In the "half of that week" the sacrifice fails. If, as I argue, the week is much more than 7 years, something which happens during or in "the midst" of that week can last much more than 7 years also. And that "half week" period when the sacrifice fails lasts until the end.

    That is why I disagree.

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
    « Reply #12 on: May 10, 2023, 09:05:49 AM »
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  • I think my argument here is sound for the following reasons.

    First, I think the Novus Ordo, as it was promulgated in Latin and as it now stands in the English vernacular, is valid. The Council of Trent notes that the Church has great authority over the administration of the sacraments:


    Quote
    Session XXI

    CHAPTER II.

    The power of the Church as regards the dispensation of the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

    It furthermore declares, that this power has ever been in the Church, that, in the dispensation of the sacraments, their substance being untouched, (l) it may ordain,- or change, what things soever it may judge most expedient, for the profit of those who receive, or for the veneration of the said sacraments, according to the difference of circuмstances, times, and places. And this the Apostle seems not obscurely to have intimated, when he says; Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God. (m) And indeed it is sufficiently manifest that he himself exercised this power,- as in many other things, so in regard of this very sacrament; when, after having ordained certain things touching the use thereof, he says; The rest I will set in order when I come. (n) Wherefore, holy Mother Church, knowing this her authority in the administration of the sacraments, although the use of both species has,- from the beginning of the Christian religion, not been unfrequent, yet, in progress of time, that custom having been already very widely changed,- she, induced by weighty and just reasons,- has approved of this custom of communicating under one(o) species, (p) and decreed that it was to be held as a law; which it is not lawful to reprobate, or to change at plea sure, without the authority of the Church itself.

    The "substance" of the sacrament of the Eucharist, as indicated by the Council of Florence, is the water and wine, the matter, with the form, the words of Christ in the institution:


    Quote
    The third is the sacrament of the eucharist. Its matter is wheat bread and wine from the vine, to which a very little water is added before the consecration. Water is added thus because it is believed, in accordance with the testimony of holy fathers and doctors of the church manifested long ago in disputation, that the Lord himself instituted this sacrament in wine mixed with water, and because it befits the representation of the Lord's passion. For the blessed pope Alexander, fifth after blessed Peter, says: "In the oblations of the sacraments which are offered to the Lord within the solemnities of masses, only bread and wine mixed with water are to be offered in sacrifice. There should not be offered in the chalice of the Lord either wine only or water only but both mixed together, because both blood and water are said to have flowed from Christ's side'; also because it is fitting to signify the effect of this sacrament, which is the union of the Christian people with Christ. For, water signifies the people according to those words of the Apocalypse: many waters, many peoples. And Pope Julius, second after blessed Silvester, said: The chalice of the Lord, by a precept of the canons, should be offered mixed of wine and water, because we see that the people is understood in the water and the blood of Christ is manifested in the wine; hence when wine and water are mingled in the chalice, the people are made one with Christ and the mass of the faithful are linked and joined together with him in whom they believe. Since, therefore, both the holy Roman church taught by the most blessed apostles Peter and Paul and the other churches of Latins and Greeks, in which the lights of all sanctity and doctrine have shone brightly, have behaved in this way from the very beginning of the growing church and still do so, it seems very unfitting that any other region should differ from this universal and reasonable observance. We decree, therefore, that the Armenians should conform themselves with the whole Christian world and that their priests shall mix a little water with the wine in the oblation of the chalice, as has been said. The form of this sacrament are the words of the Saviour with which he effected this sacrament. A priest speaking in the person of Christ effects this sacrament. For, in virtue of those words, the substance of bread is changed into the body of Christ and the substance of wine into his blood. In such wise, however, that the whole Christ is contained both under the form of bread and under the form of wine, under any part of the consecrated host as well as after division of the consecrated wine, there is the whole Christ. The effect of this sacrament, which is produced in the soul of one who receives it worthily, is the union of him or her with Christ. Since by grace a person is incorporated in Christ and is united with his members, the consequence is that grace is increased by this sacrament in those who receive it worthily, and that every effect that material food and drink produce for corporal life — sustaining, increasing, repairing and delighting — this sacrament works for spiritual life. For in it, as Pope Urban said, we recall the gracious memory of our Saviour, we are withdrawn from evil, we are strengthened in good and we receive an increase of virtues and graces.

    https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/ecuмenical-council-of-florence-1438-1445-1461




    The reasoning used to change the Mass to the Novus Ordo and the ritual surrounding the sacrament of the Eucharist was precisely to accord with "circuмstances, times and places" of modern man, all in line with the power the Church possesses, as indicated by Trent.

    Now, my argument is that the NO in the vernacular, when it changed the words of Christ in confecting the sacrament from "for many" to "for all" in the consecration of the wine, altered the substance, and voided those Masses. Thus,  I argue that was the abomination of desolation, and the effective "cessation of the Mass" in the overwhelming majority of all Catholic masses all over the world - certainly the authorized and prescriptive mass for almost all Catholic countries then celebrating mass in the vernacular. 

    When you consider Daniel 9 in conjunction with Daniel 12 (see the opening post), you get a respite of some time after the abomination of desolation ceases. I argue this time is the time of the restoration of the proper form of the sacrament in the vernacular by Benedict XVI. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
    « Reply #13 on: May 10, 2023, 10:23:29 AM »
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  • Quote
    As noted, I disagree with you. Yet I concede that you could cite many Church fathers, saints and theologians who agree with you, so you're view is certainly well supported. 
    Don't be a protestant.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days
    « Reply #14 on: May 10, 2023, 10:53:36 AM »
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  • Don't be a protestant.
    :laugh1:


    Good one, Pax. That's really rich, coming from someone who rejects the same on baptism of desire.

    There should be the equivalent of a billboard around here with these verses:


    Quote
    Matthew 7:3-5

    And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye  Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?  5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

    We're all forced to "be a protestant" in light of many the teachings of Church fathers, saints and theologians, some even going back to before the dreaded V2 - like BOD.

    Hysterical, Pax. Good one. :laugh2:

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.