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Author Topic: the new "Chosenites"  (Read 2313 times)

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Offline Mark 79

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the new "Chosenites"
« on: November 22, 2022, 11:02:51 AM »
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    • Since my recent brush with death I have been struggling thinking about "Trads" not as Catholics, but as the latest usurpers, the new "Chosenites."

    To be clear, in no way do I impugn Catholicism or the true Church, but only the most arrogant ersatz pontiffs among "Trads." In no way is this an endorsement of or submission to the Novus Ordo and its lineage of impostors "subsisting in" the Chair of Peter.

    Cue the rage.
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    Offline Cornelius

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #1 on: November 22, 2022, 11:16:40 AM »
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    • I say this with no malice.

    If you really had a close call, and the strongest thing pressing on your mind is how some people out there are arrogant and think they know it all, then maybe you should be more honest with yourself as to your real motivations. Whoever out there that you view as an ersatz pontiff isn't going to be there in the Final Judgment with you, their shortcomings aren't going to excuse yours.

    Speck in the eye, and all that.

    In the face of the finality of death, worldly contentions and mortal ego should seem like little more than a mirage or clump of foam on the ocean. Here one moment gone the next. There will always be those that try to set themselves up above the rest for whatever reason, nominally Catholic or not. What culture out there has not come to the collective conclusion that they are the apex, destined to inherit the Earth? Then, how many individuals actually end up believing it about not only their culture, tribe, group, etc, but about they themselves?

    None of that will matter to you in the end. It will only bother you if your concern is about being "above" them or "cutting them down to size," instead of our Lord and the ultimate fate of your soul in Eternity.

    Why would you bother worrying about the egos of people you will likely never even meet? Pray for them and move on, and pray that your mind is occupied by more important things (like God and your relationship with Him, repentance, etc) when death finally does come upon you.

    I hope you take this well. I mean no offense. May God guide you in this matter.
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    One day at a time.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #2 on: November 22, 2022, 11:22:07 AM »
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    • I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, Polymath… uh… I mean… Cornelius, re: "malice."

    Lest you imagine that the entirety of my spiritual/confessional/directional life is what you read from me on CI, please don't worry yourself. Too, read our words carefully, lest you project your own pathologies upon others.

    My original post remains open for discussion.
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    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #3 on: November 22, 2022, 12:09:19 PM »
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    • I cannot stand people telling me where I should go to mass. I get this mostly from Resistance members, some of whom, get very upset if you don't join them. One of them even told me I was spitting in the face of Christ by attending an SSPX mass. My red line is that I won't attend any mass said by a priest ordained by a Novos Ordo bishop. However:

    How is E Michael Jones a worse Catholic than I for sticking to the Novos Ordo? 

    How is Ann Barnhardt a worse catholic for going to to an FSSP mass? 

    I hope that Mgr Vigano will somehow be the one that helps us navigate out of this mess. Yet he remains an Novos Ordo Bishop and he speaks with a fearless natural authority that flies in the face of what trads (like me) believe about the new sacraments. 

    The covid con has shown that the SSPX as an organisation, doesn't have the grace of state to navigate what remains of the Church into these uncharted waters. Their cover up of pedophile priests is yet another indicator. A sedevacantist bishop, whose name I've forgotten also recommended the jab. 

    Despite the errors at the top, the vast majority of SSPX priests never made our children wear masks in SSPX schools and privately weren't taken in. There were some exceptions and to my extreme disappointment, the most conservative priest in our priory had hydroalcoholic gel on the altar, and used it frequently, and he also wore a mask during confessions. Many lost all esteem for him after this.  So we are certainly at the period of history predicted by Mgr Lefevre, who said that there would come a time when we will longer be able to trust any institution but only individual priests. I have more confidence in the judgement of a novos ordo anti vaxxer, than any masked trad.

    I have a great deal of respect for the Novos Ordos who resisted the covid hoax and recite rosaries daily. There are many, but I'll never attend their masses



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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #4 on: November 22, 2022, 12:21:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Confiteor Deo on November 22, 2022, 12:09:19 PM
    …How is E Michael Jones a worse Catholic than I for sticking to the Novos Ordo?

    How is Ann Barnhardt a worse catholic for going to to an FSSP mass?…

    These rhetorical questions, as your other observations, do indeed emphasize the problem.

    You mention EMJ. When he insists the SSPX is schismatic he repudiates and usurps his own "Pope" Benedict XVI who explicitly stated otherwise in the remission of the excommunications.

    Barnhardt's "Islam delenda est" not only butchers Cato, but also usurps Magisterium that prioritizes the Church's battle against the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan.

    In those regards, they too make themselves "new Chosenites," little popes.
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    Offline Marius

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #5 on: November 22, 2022, 12:34:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on November 22, 2022, 12:21:43 PM
    These rhetorical questions, as your other observations, do indeed emphasize the problem.

    You mention EMJ. When he insists the SSPX is schismatic he repudiates and usurps his own "Pope" Benedict XVI who explicitly stated otherwise in the remission of the excommunications.

    Barnhardt's "Islam delenda est" not only butchers Cato, but also usurps Magisterium that prioritizes the Church's battle against the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan.

    In those regards, they too make themselves "new Chosenites," little popes.
    A logical result flowing from the lack of an authority that is both recognized and obeyed.

    In what sense are you using "new Chosenites"?
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    If the world is against the Truth, then I am against the World. - St. Athanasius
    In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas - St. Augistine

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #6 on: November 22, 2022, 12:39:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marius on November 22, 2022, 12:34:20 PM
    A logical result flowing from the lack of an authority that is both recognized and obeyed.

    In what sense are you using "new Chosenites"?
    Not in the dogmatic sense, not in the sense of true Chosen for the birth of the Messiah.

    Instead, in the sense of entitlement, "I'm the Pope of my sect, the only true sect, and to hell with everyone else."

    Maybe a more apt analogy, a gaggle of Chosenite rabbis arguing to "defeat God" [Baba Mezia 59a].
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    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #7 on: November 22, 2022, 12:41:16 PM »
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    • Quote
    Mark: You mention EMJ. When he insists the SSPX is schismatic he repudiates and usurps his own "Pope" Benedict XVI who explicitly stated otherwise in the remission of the excommunications


    Yes, as much as I admire EMJ for pure raw intelligence and a comprehensive grasp of history, I have to wonder the same.  EMJ will say, for another example, that jp2 fully consecrated Russia in 1984. (that was after at least two other earlier attempts.)  But Sr. Lucy herself said that the 1984 was not successful.  So EMJ is obviously contradicting the seer.
    Bp. Williamson, just to add gratuitously, is a cleric whom I much admire.  But it bothers me that he is so speechless when it comes to SSPX's horrendous sex abuse scandals.  Something just does not compute here.



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    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #8 on: November 22, 2022, 12:49:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on November 22, 2022, 12:21:43 PM
    These rhetorical questions, as your other observations, do indeed emphasize the problem.

    You mention EMJ. When he insists the SSPX is schismatic he repudiates and usurps his own "Pope" Benedict XVI who explicitly stated otherwise in the remission of the excommunications.

    Barnhardt's "Islam delenda est" not only butchers Cato, but also usurps Magisterium that prioritizes the Church's battle against the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan.

    In those regards, they too make themselves "new Chosenites," little popes.
    They certainly do. I don't appreciate anyone telling me where I should go to mass and I would never do so, but I learn a great deal from their writing. 



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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #9 on: November 22, 2022, 12:53:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Confiteor Deo on November 22, 2022, 12:49:58 PM
    They certainly do. I don't appreciate anyone telling me where I should go to mass and I would never do so, but I learn a great deal from their writing.

    Yes, we are left to our own devices to—[hesitates]—pick and choose what sources we deem reliable.  It approaches what we called in my youth "cafeteria Catholicism."
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #10 on: November 22, 2022, 12:54:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: hollingsworth on November 22, 2022, 12:41:16 PM

    Yes, as much as I admire EMJ for pure raw intelligence and a comprehensive grasp of history, I have to wonder the same.  EMJ will say, for another example, that jp2 fully consecrated Russia in 1984. (that was after at least two other earlier attempts.)  But Sr. Lucy herself said that the 1984 was not successful.  So EMJ is obviously contradicting the seer.
    Bp. Williamson, just to add gratuitously, is a cleric whom I much admire.  But it bothers me that he is so speechless when it comes to SSPX's horrendous sex abuse scandals.  Something just does not compute here.

    Yes. The shepherds have been struck.

    It's almost as though—[hesitates again]—the gates of hell have prevailed.

    I know they have not prevailed.

    Obviously I am struggling to delineate and articulate the problem.
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    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #11 on: November 22, 2022, 12:59:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on November 22, 2022, 12:54:41 PM
    Yes. The shepherds have been struck.

    It's almost as though—[hesitates again]—the gates of hell have prevailed.

    I know they have not prevailed.

    Michael Hoffman has powerful arguments as to how the Church decline started after usury stopped becoming a mortal sin and the Renaissance paganised the Vatican. Despite many holy popes and thousands of saintly priests, the Church has been retreating since the time of Saint Louis. In 1099 the Church called for a crusade to regain Jerusalem but there was never a crusade called to rescue England from the tyranny of Henry VIII, or France from the revolution. There are also no encyclicals against Jєωιѕн power since the middle ages. Is this because Popes are elected in the Sistine Chapel, decorated with obscene images such as Biagio da Cesena ( a critic of Michaelangelo ) displayed with his privated being devoured by a serpent.
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #12 on: November 22, 2022, 01:01:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: hollingsworth on November 22, 2022, 12:41:16 PM

    .. But Sr. Lucy herself said that the 1984 was not successful.  ...
    When the fake Sister Lucy says the Consecration has not been done, you know things are really messed up in the Vatican.
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    Offline Marius

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #13 on: November 22, 2022, 01:16:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on November 22, 2022, 12:39:47 PM
    Not in the dogmatic sense, not in the sense of true Chosen for the birth of the Messiah.

    Instead, in the sense of entitlement, "I'm the Pope and to hell with everyone else."
    An attitude that naturally arises from trying to keep the Faith against the Vatican hierarchy and V2 era Papal claimants' words and actions - an unprecedented situation for the Church to find herself. Obedience is not given to the man who claims to be the Pope, whether they are recognized as such or rejected out right. Without obedience there can be no unity.

    Every group and even certain individuals will have their own idea of what adherence to Tradition entails and treats any other interpretation as borderline heresy/schism. 

    Quote
    Men marvellously like to be popes; and the dullest of men, if only he has, as usual, an obstinacy proportioned to his dullness, can in most neighbourhoods carve out a tiny papacy for himself; and if to his dullness he can add pomposity, he may reign gloriously, a little local ecuмenical council in unintermitting session through all the four seasons of the year. Who has time enough, or heart enough, or hope enough, to try to persuade such men? They are not sufficiently interesting to us to be worth our persuading. Let us leave them alone with their glory and their happiness. Let us try to persuade ourselves.

    -Fr. Faber
    Adherence to Tradition since VII requires a certain obstinacy that easily leads to Pontificating.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #14 on: November 22, 2022, 01:17:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Confiteor Deo on November 22, 2022, 12:59:49 PM
    Michael Hoffman has powerful arguments as to how the Church decline started after usury stopped becoming a mortal sin and the Renaissance paganised the Vatican. Despite many holy popes and thousands of saintly priests, the Church has been retreating since the time of Saint Louis. In 1099 the Church called for a crusade to regain Jerusalem but there was never a crusade called to rescue England from the tyranny of Henry VIII, or France from the revolution. There are also no encyclicals against Jєωιѕн power since the middle ages. Is this because Popes are elected in the Sistine Chapel, decorated with obscene images such as Biagio da Cesena ( a critic of Michaelangelo ) displayed with his privated being devoured by a serpent.

    Yes. Notwithstanding those here who deride him, I think Michael has well-docuмented the "Renaissance" as a key point of decline.
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