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Author Topic: the new "Chosenites"  (Read 2310 times)

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Offline Mark 79

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Re: the new "Chosenites"
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2022, 01:19:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marius on November 22, 2022, 01:16:10 PM
    An attitude that naturally arises from trying to keep the Faith against the Vatican hierarchy and V2 era Papal claimants' words and actions - an unprecedented situation for the Church to find herself. Obedience is not given to the man who claims to be the Pope, whether they are recognized as such or rejected out right. Without obedience there can be no unity.

    Every group and even certain individuals will have their own idea of what adherence to Tradition entails and treats any other interpretation as borderline heresy/schism.
    Adherence to Tradition since VII requires a certain obstinacy that easily leads to Pontificating.

    I agree with one exception. I think the hold that Arianism had on the hierarchy is a precedent.
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    Online josefamenendez

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #16 on: November 22, 2022, 01:41:21 PM »
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    • I have resigned myself to the absolute minimum of what it is that is necessary for salvation of my soul-valid sacraments from a valid minister. Hence I will avoid most SSPX as there are more uncertainties since they have abandoned (or so it seems) conditional ordinations of NO priests joining the Society. Avoidance is just a safety mechanism at this point. I harbor no bad will towards anyone or any group. No pontificating.
     I know many seemingly holy Novus Ordo people-way better than me. I can't explain it other than God Wills what He Wills.
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    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #17 on: November 22, 2022, 04:29:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on November 22, 2022, 01:17:42 PM
    Yes. Notwithstanding those here who deride him, I think Michael has well-docuмented the "Renaissance" as a key point of decline.
    Since the Renaissance, the Church has disconnected itself from science, politics and the problem of the Jєωs. The last time Rome mentioned the danger of the Jєωs was in 1555 with a papal bull entitled "cuм Nimis Absurdum". Talk to a run of the mill trad today about the Jєωs and although you will find, with some difficulty, books by the Rev Denis Fahey and Mgr Jouin, you wont find any encyclicals to back you up. Most of these trads will look at you as some kind of kook, after all, it never concerned Mgr Lefebvre. 

    Same with science. There are are no Encyclicals condeming Darwin. Once again you are on your own. 

    You have however the the conciliar E Michael Jones and the conciliar Kolbe Center to help you try to persuade your fellow trad pew sitters, as no SSPX book touches on these subjects honestly. 

    And it's too easy to blame everything on Vatican 2, when well before then, in 1892 the Church told French Catholics to accept the Revolution. This only resulted in the state secularising the whole of France in 1905. 

    It's easy to blame Francis having abandoned the Chinese Catholics, but how is that worse than Pius XI abandoning the Cristeros? 

    The conciliars have Mgr Vigano, who instictively understands the danger of the covid con and the great reset, whist the trad bishops (except Mgr Williamson) follow the Vatican line. 

    But Mgr Williamson, for some really bizarre reason, doesn't find it odd that many are appalled about his pedophile roomate or his support of Carlos Urrotigoity.

    So anyone from any trad group that claims that he is following the path that all must follow, has a blind spot. No group is in a state of grace and only God can sort this mess out. 





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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #18 on: November 22, 2022, 04:42:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Confiteor Deo on November 22, 2022, 04:29:42 PM
    But Mgr Williamson, for some really bizarre reason, doesn't find it odd that many are appalled about his pedophile roomate or his support of Carlos Urrotigoity

    This is a new one I haven't heard.  Is it public knowledge that I haven't picked up on (since I largely bailed on +Williamson after his lauding the New Mass, miracles in the New Order, etc.)?
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #19 on: November 22, 2022, 06:56:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Confiteor Deo on November 22, 2022, 04:29:42 PM
    …as no SSPX book touches on these subjects honestly.…

    I was able to rescue this from the SSPX memory hole: https://judaism.is/mystery-of-the-Jєωιѕн-people.html

    A small consolation since it is disavowed de facto. http://judaism.is/sspx.html
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    Offline Sneedevacantist

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #20 on: November 22, 2022, 07:46:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Confiteor Deo on November 22, 2022, 12:09:19 PM
    A sedevacantist bishop, whose name I've forgotten also recommended the jab.
    Are you talking about Bishop Sanborn? If so, I don't think he explicitly recommended the jab. He seemed neutral on the jab, but he was still vocally against the scamdemic lockdowns and procedures.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #21 on: November 22, 2022, 10:29:32 PM »
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    • In his newsletter +Sanborn was comparing degrees of culpability.  Someone, like an employee who is forced to take the vax to save his job and feed a family, is less culpable in the evil than, say, Bill Gates who is using it to depopulate the planet.  A similar situation might be the U.S. Government taking your money and using it to fund abortion oversees.  No one on CathInfo would contribute to that but we can't control Joe Biden and what he does either.  That, as far as I can remember, was the gist but it's been a while.  I'm sure someone can dig that newsletter up somewhere.  
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    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #22 on: November 23, 2022, 04:31:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on November 22, 2022, 04:42:12 PM
    This is a new one I haven't heard.  Is it public knowledge that I haven't picked up on (since I largely bailed on +Williamson after his lauding the New Mass, miracles in the New Order, etc.)?
    Page 14 here https://www.stmaryskssspxmc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/The_Recusant_Issue_31_Nov_Dec_2015-Copy.pdf

    The letter "A Word to My Future Critics" by Greg Taylor has pretty much disappeared from the Internet, but has never been refuted.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #23 on: November 23, 2022, 08:30:08 AM »
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    • Thanks for the post.  I'd never heard of that man.  Pretty sketchy stuff.
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    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #24 on: November 23, 2022, 09:39:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on November 22, 2022, 10:29:32 PM
    In his newsletter +Sanborn was comparing degrees of culpability.  Someone, like an employee who is forced to take the vax to save his job and feed a family, is less culpable in the evil than, say, Bill Gates who is using it to depopulate the planet.  A similar situation might be the U.S. Government taking your money and using it to fund abortion oversees.  No one on CathInfo would contribute to that but we can't control Joe Biden and what he does either.  That, as far as I can remember, was the gist but it's been a while.  I'm sure someone can dig that newsletter up somewhere. 
    There was no observable pandemic, so anyone vaccinating is participating in a lie. I don't understand why this is was so complicated for the good bishop.

    This is a comment from a Novus Ordo Watch thread "When even Novus Ordo cleric (Viganò et al) and N.O sites (LifeSiteNews) are stronger than Trad bishops and Trad sites on such a vital issue I get worried.

    Failing to see aborted cells tissues, sterilization, DNA mutation, humanized rats, etc., as a moral issue is appalling."

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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #25 on: November 23, 2022, 10:01:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Confiteor Deo on November 23, 2022, 09:39:23 AM
    There was no observable pandemic…

    I dispute that. Definitions matter.

    An epidemic is "beyond the usual prevalence of the disease."  A pandemic is "beyond the usual prevalence of the disease globally."  COVID was indeed a global phenomenon beyond the usual prevalence of coronaviruses, so by definition was a pandemic.

    For the overwhelming majority of people the disease was mild and medically inconsequential, but for a rough estimate of 15 million it was a catastrophe.

    Though mostly medically inconsequential, it is inarguable that it was economically and politically a global catastrophe. That isn't what made COVID a pandemic, but does make it significant.
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    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #26 on: November 23, 2022, 10:14:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on November 23, 2022, 10:01:52 AM
    I dispute that. Definitions matter.

    An epidemic is "beyond the usual prevalence of the disease."  A pandemic is "beyond the usual prevalence of the disease globally."  COVID was indeed a global phenomenon beyond the usual prevalence of coronaviruses, so by definition was a pandemic.

    For the overwhelming majority of people the disease was mild and medically inconsequential, but for a rough estimate of 15 million it was a catastrophe.

    Though mostly medically inconsequential, it is inarguable that it was economically and politically a global catastrophe. That isn't what made COVID a pandemic, but does make it significant.
    A pandemic is when people keel over in the street and people are crying "bring out your dead". The cemetaries weren't particulary busy in 2020.

    Pandemic is now a weaponised word. 

    I don't deny that there was a disease, we all got it, in our famlily, as well as just about our whole parish. The economic consequences were not a result of the disease though, but a result of official policies applied all over the world at the same time
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    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #27 on: November 23, 2022, 12:16:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Confiteor Deo on November 22, 2022, 12:59:49 PM
    Michael Hoffman has powerful arguments as to how the Church decline started after usury stopped becoming a mortal sin and the Renaissance paganised the Vatican. Despite many holy popes and thousands of saintly priests, the Church has been retreating since the time of Saint Louis. In 1099 the Church called for a crusade to regain Jerusalem but there was never a crusade called to rescue England from the tyranny of Henry VIII, or France from the revolution. There are also no encyclicals against Jєωιѕн power since the middle ages. Is this because Popes are elected in the Sistine Chapel, decorated with obscene images such as Biagio da Cesena ( a critic of Michaelangelo ) displayed with his privated being devoured by a serpent.


    I would argue that from what I know of Hoffman, while he has done some good research, he seems to be quite sensationalist and approaches Church history from a Protestant perspective.

    Granted, I would also add that the Renaissance was the beginning of the decline of the Church in a sense. There were many bad elements of the so-called Renaissance, and holy men like St. Antoninus and Girolamo Savonarola condemned these while at the same time worked to build up Christendom. 

    One has to remember too that the Middle Ages, while more ideal, were not perfect either. The Guelph and Ghibelline wars are a great example which highlight this.

    Something that I think is worth adding to what you've written is that the centralization of the civil power and the moving away from the feudal system, in my amateur view, did great harm to the power of the Church in the long run. This centralization eventually brought us to the situation of Absolutism, in which France produced that awful heresy of Gallicanism as a consequence. Kings started to care more about their own power than working together as Catholic brothers to preserve and grow Christendom. See for reference the alliance between Catholic France and the Mohammedan Ottoman Empire, constructed to counteract Catholic Austria!

    The Revolution was not only a horrible Chastisement for the French King's refusal to consecrate his country to the Sacred Heart, but also it was a punishment on the French absolutist monarchs for placing the national interest of France above the interests of Christ and His Church.

    So it was not just the fault of the Church hierarchy, but also that of the civil leaders of Catholic nations as well. As Aristotle observed, we get the leaders we deserve. It is said that St. John Eudes related that the worst punishment that God can send the faithful is a bad priest. So, I see God's hand in all of this, as I am sure you do as well.
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    Offline Drolo

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #28 on: November 23, 2022, 03:18:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: StLouisIX on November 23, 2022, 12:16:02 PM
    ...

    Something that I think is worth adding to what you've written is that the centralization of the civil power and the moving away from the feudal system, in my amateur view, did great harm to the power of the Church in the long run. This centralization eventually brought us to the situation of Absolutism, in which France produced that awful heresy of Gallicanism as a consequence. Kings started to care more about their own power than working together as Catholic brothers to preserve and grow Christendom. See for reference the alliance between Catholic France and the Mohammedan Ottoman Empire, constructed to counteract Catholic Austria!

    The Revolution was not only a horrible Chastisement for the French King's refusal to consecrate his country to the Sacred Heart, but also it was a punishment on the French absolutist monarchs for placing the national interest of France above the interests of Christ and His Church.

    So it was not just the fault of the Church hierarchy, but also that of the civil leaders of Catholic nations as well. As Aristotle observed, we get the leaders we deserve. It is said that St. John Eudes related that the worst punishment that God can send the faithful is a bad priest. So, I see God's hand in all of this, as I am sure you do as well.
    Feudalism also brings many problems. Just look at the easey with which the weak Visigothic monarchy collapsed in the face of the Moorish invasion of 711.

    Or the fact that the Moors had control of the peninsula until the caliphate collapsed and fragmented into taifas. Or the fact that the Moors had control of the peninsula until the caliphate collapsed and fragmented into taifas. Once the caliphate is fragmented, the Christians quickly take over the majority of the peninsula.

    Or that the opposition of many of the HRE principalities agains the emperor was one of the main causes of the rise of Protestantism.

    In the Middle Ages, the betrayal of the Fourth Crusade took place, in which the Crusaders looted Constantinople, weakening the Byzantines and facilitating their fall at the hands of the Turks, which also happened in the Middle Ages.

    Yes it's true, weak monarchies such as feudal monarchies has more difficulty to challenge the Church, but they also work worse.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: the new "Chosenites"
    « Reply #29 on: November 23, 2022, 04:11:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Confiteor Deo on November 23, 2022, 10:14:01 AM
    A pandemic is when people keel over in the street and people are crying "bring out your dead". The cemetaries weren't particulary busy in 2020.
    What dictionary do you use? Whatever it is, I'd replace it. It not only gives wrong information, but also wrong spelling.
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