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Author Topic: The Maronite liturgy?  (Read 5018 times)

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Offline DigitalLogos

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The Maronite liturgy?
« on: March 06, 2023, 09:17:22 PM »
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    • I'm largely ignorant of this liturgy but have seen it thrown around with disdain here. The area im looking to move would have a Maronite Church right in town (https://maps.app.goo.gl/5jUfrDSennhUJBsB6), but is it valid like the Tridentine or Eastern liturgies? Or to be avoided like the NOM?
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #1 on: March 06, 2023, 09:27:22 PM »
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    • The Maronites use a West Syriac liturgy that has been heavily Latinised and, consequently, influenced by the Novus Ordo Missae.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #2 on: March 06, 2023, 09:35:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on March 06, 2023, 09:27:22 PM
    The Maronites use a West Syriac liturgy that has been heavily Latinised and, consequently, influenced by the Novus Ordo Missae.
    Unfortunate, I'm seeing that it's versus populum; like a more reverent NOM.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Cornelius

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #3 on: March 06, 2023, 09:39:56 PM »
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    • I'm going to a Maronite liturgy this coming Sunday for the first time (wasn't able to this passed Saturday). I'll let you know. Somebody I know went years ago, said it was versus populum. Question is, is that something they ever had a tradition of doing at all in that rite.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #4 on: March 06, 2023, 10:19:42 PM »
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    • I came across this article, it seems like the Maronite has truly become the NOM of the East.

    https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2021/09/the-maronite-liturgys-corruption-under.html?m=1
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #5 on: March 06, 2023, 11:04:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on March 06, 2023, 10:19:42 PM
    I came across this article, it seems like the Maronite has truly become the NOM of the East.

    https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2021/09/the-maronite-liturgys-corruption-under.html?m=1
    This really answered my own question.

    Upon further reflection of this article, my outrage is comparable to the hack job they did to the Roman rite with the NOM. There were elements, such as the recitation of Psalm 50 which had existed in the liturgy since the 5th century, that were completely removed to accommodate for Bugninian opposition to repetition.

    Even if it were valid (in the sense of Holy Orders, technically a post-BXVI NOM would be "valid" if performed by a traditionally-ordained priest), I couldn't in good conscience attend it knowing now how they butchered the liturgy. :facepalm:
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #6 on: March 06, 2023, 11:27:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on March 06, 2023, 11:04:28 PM
    Orders, technically a post-BXVI NOM would be "valid" if performed by a traditionally-ordained priest), I couldn't in good conscience attend it knowing now how they butchered the liturgy. :facepalm:
    COULD* be valid, depending on intention which as the Ottaviani intervention points out is no longer implied by the Novus ordo missal. 
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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #7 on: March 07, 2023, 06:30:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on March 06, 2023, 11:04:28 PM
    This really answered my own question.

    Upon further reflection of this article, my outrage is comparable to the hack job they did to the Roman rite with the NOM. There were elements, such as the recitation of Psalm 50 which had existed in the liturgy since the 5th century, that were completely removed to accommodate for Bugninian opposition to repetition.

    Even if it were valid (in the sense of Holy Orders, technically a post-BXVI NOM would be "valid" if performed by a traditionally-ordained priest), I couldn't in good conscience attend it knowing now how they butchered the liturgy. :facepalm:
    I can vouch for Maronite Rite being modernized like the novus ordo.  I remember that when I was a teenager my family was invited to a baptism at such a place.  We decided to go to the liturgy before hand.  I remember thinking that it was worse than the conservative novus ordo we went to and being very scandalized.

    Many of the Eastern Rites have gone through modernizations similar to the novus ordo.  I have friends who will only go to the Ukrainian Eastern Rites for this reason.  It has been a long time since I have been to an Eastern Rite but I do remember going to a Ukrainian one back about 15 years ago and being amazed by the reverence at it and how similar it was in many ways to the traditional Latin Mass even though different.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #8 on: March 07, 2023, 07:12:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: AMDGJMJ on March 07, 2023, 06:30:39 AM
    I can vouch for Maronite Rite being modernized like the novus ordo.  I remember that when I was a teenager my family was invited to a baptism at such a place.  We decided to go to the liturgy before hand.  I remember thinking that it was worse than the conservative novus ordo we went to and being very scandalized.

    Many of the Eastern Rites have gone through modernizations similar to the novus ordo.  I have friends who will only go to the Ukrainian Eastern Rites for this reason.  It has been a long time since I have been to an Eastern Rite but I do remember going to a Ukrainian one back about 15 years ago and being amazed by the reverence at it and how similar it was in many ways to the traditional Latin Mass even though different.
    Well, the other option I'd have for an Eastern liturgy is over an hour away, and that seems mostly licit (https://maps.app.goo.gl/TFL7ugoVFM2r3wFt6) with 3 SSPX chapels close to two hours away; and for whatever reason there are no sede chapels I know of anywhere in NC.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #9 on: March 07, 2023, 08:44:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on March 07, 2023, 07:12:35 AM
    Well, the other option I'd have for an Eastern liturgy is over an hour away, and that seems mostly licit (https://maps.app.goo.gl/TFL7ugoVFM2r3wFt6) with 3 SSPX chapels close to two hours away; and for whatever reason there are no sede chapels I know of anywhere in NC.
    What part of NC will you be living?  Because I see a CMRI chapel near the border of northern SC in Greenville.
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    Online Minnesota

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #10 on: March 07, 2023, 09:11:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on March 07, 2023, 07:12:35 AM
    Well, the other option I'd have for an Eastern liturgy is over an hour away, and that seems mostly licit (https://maps.app.goo.gl/TFL7ugoVFM2r3wFt6) with 3 SSPX chapels close to two hours away; and for whatever reason there are no sede chapels I know of anywhere in NC.
    This is the liturgy at said Maronite church: https://goo.gl/maps/EZJBfEGU7ejTZfTx6, which aside from the Maronite vestments, looks identical to the Novus Ordo, unfortunately. 

    And there is a broadcaster in Lebanon that has videos of them online as well: . It is even more protestantized there.

    That part of North Carolina is a liturgical desert, and that's being kind. 'Wasteland' is probably a more apropos term.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #11 on: March 07, 2023, 09:15:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on March 07, 2023, 08:44:52 AM
    What part of NC will you be living?  Because I see a CMRI chapel near the border of northern SC in Greenville.
    Within an hour of Fort Bragg
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #12 on: March 07, 2023, 09:50:37 AM »
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    • I guess my next question, which I'm not seeing an answer for, is whether Maronite orders are doubtful? I understand they could mix in NO clerics here and there, so there would be a danger with that which would call for prudence on my part; but if those ordained by a Maronite bishop would be safe?

    I can tolerate a modernized rite if the Sacraments are valid and I can't make the drive elsewhere.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #13 on: March 07, 2023, 10:01:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on March 07, 2023, 09:15:53 AM
    Within an hour of Fort Bragg
    There is a Maronite Catholic church in Fayetteville, St Michael the Archangel:

    https://www.stmichaelsmaronite.net/
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    Online Minnesota

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #14 on: March 07, 2023, 10:15:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on March 07, 2023, 09:50:37 AM
    I guess my next question, which I'm not seeing an answer for, is whether Maronite orders are doubtful? I understand they could mix in NO clerics here and there, so there would be a danger with that which would call for prudence on my part; but if those ordained by a Maronite bishop would be safe?

    I can tolerate a modernized rite if the Sacraments are valid and I can't make the drive elsewhere.
    Yes. And yes, they do have Novus Ordo clergy in some places.

    Many NO clergy have faculties to serve in both rites.
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