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Author Topic: The Maronite liturgy?  (Read 5300 times)

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Offline DigitalLogos

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Re: The Maronite liturgy?
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2023, 10:55:47 AM »
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  • There is a Maronite Catholic church in Fayetteville, St Michael the Archangel:

    https://www.stmichaelsmaronite.net/
    Yes, that's the one that sparked this thread on the Maronites. It would be convenient to me as a possible place for Mass, if valid.

    Yes. And yes, they do have Novus Ordo clergy in some places.

    Many NO clergy have faculties to serve in both rites.
    Yes, they are doubtful and yes the Maronite ordinations are valid?? Or, did you mean they're overall valid?
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #16 on: March 07, 2023, 01:49:18 PM »
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  • Maronite orders are unquestionably valid. 

    This does mean that technically, a Maronite priest could seek faculties from Rome to celebrate the Tridentine Rite and you would have a valid Latin Mass. Maybe it has happened before.
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #17 on: March 07, 2023, 02:13:22 PM »
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  • Maronite orders are unquestionably valid.

    This does mean that technically, a Maronite priest could seek faculties from Rome to celebrate the Tridentine Rite and you would have a valid Latin Mass. Maybe it has happened before.
    Well, that's good to hear, praise God. I'll have to check it out once we're down there. From the videos I've watched it looks like a "reverent NOM" which is tolerable. It's not about me but the graces and worship of God anyway. If that's what I have immediately available, so be it.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #18 on: March 07, 2023, 04:16:39 PM »
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  • Yes, that's the one that sparked this thread on the Maronites. It would be convenient to me as a possible place for Mass, if valid.

    I didn't look at the map.  Thanks.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #19 on: March 07, 2023, 05:32:38 PM »
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  • I've written on the Maronites at length before.  As others have pointed out, of the Eastern Rites, they've always been the most "Romanized" ... for good, and now also for bad.  So, the changes they've implemented are mostly externals ... lay (female) readers, cantors, altar girls, altar in center, and Mass / Liturgy facing the people ... and a lot of their music is horrible.  With that said, their Sacraments are still valid, both Holy Orders and the others.  I knew a Maronite bishop in Cleveland and went to Confession to him once, and he gave me absolution using the full Traditional absolution form in Latin.  He didn't know at the time that I was Roman Rite.  Many Maronites studied in Rome.  They're a little bit less "standard" in that if you find a conservative or Traditional leaning Maronite, his Mass would very much resemble a Tridentine Rite Mass, whereas another might look externally closer to a NO clown Mass.  There was a Maronite priest in Chicago back in the 1980s who detested the modernizations, and was very friendly with SSPX, welcoming SSPX seminarians at his chapel there, and his Mass could have been mistaken for a Tridentine Latin Mass.  Thankfully, given their manner of distributing Holy Communion, you at least won't find Communion in the hand there.

    As I said, they're valid, but you always have to be on the lookout for the occasional bi-ritual type or the transfer who had been ordained Novus Ordo (even Mitch Pacwa of EWTN does Maronite Liturgies, as does a former SSPX priest).

    If it were my only or only reasonable option, I might go there to receive the Sacraments, perhaps float out in the vestibule until the Canon (Anaphora) to avoid the lay readers, etc.  They do still generally do the main consecration (essential form) in Aramaic, their traditional sacred language.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #20 on: March 07, 2023, 05:47:23 PM »
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  • I've written on the Maronites at length before.  As others have pointed out, of the Eastern Rites, they've always been the most "Romanized" ... for good, and now also for bad.  So, the changes they've implemented are mostly externals ... lay (female) readers, cantors, altar girls, altar in center, and Mass / Liturgy facing the people ... and a lot of their music is horrible.  With that said, their Sacraments are still valid, both Holy Orders and the others.  I knew a Maronite bishop in Cleveland and went to Confession to him once, and he gave me absolution using the full Traditional absolution form in Latin.  He didn't know at the time that I was Roman Rite.  Many Maronites studied in Rome.  They're a little bit less "standard" in that if you find a conservative or Traditional leaning Maronite, his Mass would very much resemble a Tridentine Rite Mass, whereas another might look externally closer to a NO clown Mass.  There was a Maronite priest in Chicago back in the 1980s who detested the modernizations, and was very friendly with SSPX, welcoming SSPX seminarians at his chapel there, and his Mass could have been mistaken for a Tridentine Latin Mass.  Thankfully, given their manner of distributing Holy Communion, you at least won't find Communion in the hand there.

    As I said, they're valid, but you always have to be on the lookout for the occasional bi-ritual type or the transfer who had been ordained Novus Ordo (even Mitch Pacwa of EWTN does Maronite Liturgies, as does a former SSPX priest).

    If it were my only or only reasonable option, I might go there to receive the Sacraments, perhaps float out in the vestibule until the Canon (Anaphora) to avoid the lay readers, etc.  They do still generally do the main consecration (essential form) in Aramaic, their traditional sacred language.
    I'm glad to hear communion in the hand isn't a thing with them, I would avoid it entirely if that were the case, especially with valid Orders. I can tolerate the lay readers and modern crap for the graces. Looking at their site, they at least have confessions for almost a full hour prior to Divine Liturgy, which tells me it may not be as modernized as others.

    As I said, God wills it. It's valid sacraments with an extra penitential aspect of stomaching some modernizations, I'll offer that up. And only 20-30 minutes from where I'll likely be living (we can't get approved for a home til my security clearance passes and I have a firm start date)
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #21 on: March 07, 2023, 06:45:33 PM »
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  • I have attended a Maronite parish for a few years.

    The general attitude is no different from the Novus Ordo, regarding both clergy and lay people.

    As far as I could, I have studied the rite, and, although it was somewhat modernized to mimic the Novus Ordo, it doesn't have any theologial problems. At least as far as I could tell.

    A bit of it was in the vernacular, a bit was in the Arabic language, and a bit was in Aramaic, the language supposedly spoken by Our Lord as vernacular.

    The sermons were sometimes good, but rubbish most of the time. Their formation is apparently very conciliar, so to speak.

    One thing that really bothered me was that they venerated a lot of "new saints", as all of their sants were canonized after the council.

    Regarding communion, they will give you communion of both the consecrated hosts and the consecrated wine, but it is rushed. They don't really give you a chance to kneel, so the risk of profanation exists.

    Also, they will give communion in the hand if people ask for it. Sometimes there will even be two queues. One for the usual communion, and other for communion in the hand. At least when they give you communion in the hand, it is only the consecrated hosts and not the consecrated wine.

    One big problem was also the bi-ritual priests. There was a particular Novus Ordo priest that had some Lebanese ancestry and became good friends with the Maronite priests. As time went by, he learned how to celebrate their liturgy, and now he is a regular celebrant there. So you do have the risk of invalid sacraments.

    My advice is to go a couple of times and see how it is. They are usually welcoming people, the Lebanese.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #22 on: March 07, 2023, 07:47:28 PM »
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  • I have attended a Maronite parish for a few years.

    The general attitude is no different from the Novus Ordo, regarding both clergy and lay people.

    As far as I could, I have studied the rite, and, although it was somewhat modernized to mimic the Novus Ordo, it doesn't have any theologial problems. At least as far as I could tell.

    A bit of it was in the vernacular, a bit was in the Arabic language, and a bit was in Aramaic, the language supposedly spoken by Our Lord as vernacular.

    The sermons were sometimes good, but rubbish most of the time. Their formation is apparently very conciliar, so to speak.

    One thing that really bothered me was that they venerated a lot of "new saints", as all of their sants were canonized after the council.

    Regarding communion, they will give you communion of both the consecrated hosts and the consecrated wine, but it is rushed. They don't really give you a chance to kneel, so the risk of profanation exists.

    Also, they will give communion in the hand if people ask for it. Sometimes there will even be two queues. One for the usual communion, and other for communion in the hand. At least when they give you communion in the hand, it is only the consecrated hosts and not the consecrated wine.

    One big problem was also the bi-ritual priests. There was a particular Novus Ordo priest that had some Lebanese ancestry and became good friends with the Maronite priests. As time went by, he learned how to celebrate their liturgy, and now he is a regular celebrant there. So you do have the risk of invalid sacraments.

    My advice is to go a couple of times and see how it is. They are usually welcoming people, the Lebanese.
    Having bi-ritual priests is probably my biggest concern. Their veneration of their Maronite saints doesn't bother me that much as it would be equivalent to a regional devotion, like Eastern Catholics venerating their own saints not yet venerated universally in the Church.

    But yes, I'll check it out a couple times and see how it is once we're down there. Then I'm sure I'll give my take on it here lol
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #23 on: March 08, 2023, 01:30:54 AM »
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  • The pastor was ordained by a Maronite bishop, so you're good. He is a former Episcopalian that was received directly into that rite.

    Maronite convert leads city parish (southcoasttoday.com)

    It's rather unfortunate that for such a large city, the liturgical options are awful.
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #24 on: March 08, 2023, 06:53:35 AM »
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  • The pastor was ordained by a Maronite bishop, so you're good. He is a former Episcopalian that was received directly into that rite.

    Maronite convert leads city parish (southcoasttoday.com)

    It's rather unfortunate that for such a large city, the liturgical options are awful.
    Yeah, I'm surprised there isn't at least one trad chapel nearby. At least his being a former Episcopalian organist might mean their liturgical music is good :laugh1:
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #25 on: March 08, 2023, 07:45:19 AM »
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  • The pastor was ordained by a Maronite bishop, so you're good. He is a former Episcopalian that was received directly into that rite.

    Maronite convert leads city parish (southcoasttoday.com)

    It's rather unfortunate that for such a large city, the liturgical options are awful.

    LOL ... I like to look one generation more, to see the origins of said Maronite Bishop.  If you could get his name, he could be looked up on catholic-hierarchy.org.  As a rule, they tend not to pick bishops from priests who had come over from other Rites, but I know of one Ruthenian bishop who had been ordained an NO priest.

    In any case, he doesn't have Lebanese/Arabic background himself, so even less reason to feel awkward, and it said this about his church:
    Quote
    "So many Roman Catholics came to worship and fell in love with Maronite spirituality," Father Jack said. "Ninety percent of the parish were Latin Catholics."

    This is undoubtedly due to people fleeing the NO and the NOM, and not just because they "fell in love with Maronite spirituality".  So at least you're probably looking at more conservative types, who had enough Catholic sense to walk away from the NO.  I was told the same thing by one Ukrainian Rite priest from the Pittsburgh area, that most of his church were refugees from the Roman Rite who "didn't like the changes of Vatican II."


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #26 on: March 08, 2023, 08:59:35 AM »
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  • LOL ... I like to look one generation more, to see the origins of said Maronite Bishop.  If you could get his name, he could be looked up on catholic-hierarchy.org.  As a rule, they tend not to pick bishops from priests who had come over from other Rites, but I know of one Ruthenian bishop who had been ordained an NO priest.
    Their bishop is Bishop Gregory John Mansour
    https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bmansou.html

    Ordained by Bp. John George Chedid, consecrated by Nasrallah Boutros Cardinal Sfeir, all Melkite, so the orders are good.

    In any case, he doesn't have Lebanese/Arabic background himself, so even less reason to feel awkward, and it said this about his church:
    This is undoubtedly due to people fleeing the NO and the NOM, and not just because they "fell in love with Maronite spirituality".  So at least you're probably looking at more conservative types, who had enough Catholic sense to walk away from the NO.  I was told the same thing by one Ukrainian Rite priest from the Pittsburgh area, that most of his church were refugees from the Roman Rite who "didn't like the changes of Vatican II."
    That'll be interesting to find out. I'm sure there will be more traditionally-minded folks there just on the basis of legitimate Holy Orders.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #27 on: March 08, 2023, 11:38:40 AM »
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  • "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #28 on: March 08, 2023, 01:18:37 PM »
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  • There is a Maronite Catholic church in Fayetteville, St Michael the Archangel:

    https://www.stmichaelsmaronite.net/
    I found some of their streams on Facebook of Divine Liturgy.  It doesn't seem intolerable, like a "good" NOM. The music is not great, but I don't really care about that anyway (I won't lie, I find some of the Latin choirs come across as a little overlong and self-indulgent at times during TLM). No terrible abuses from what I skimmed, communion under both species so no communion in the hand.

    https://fb.watch/j8CaR5QYmY/
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: The Maronite liturgy?
    « Reply #29 on: March 08, 2023, 05:12:04 PM »
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  • My uncle and Godfather received Last Rites from a Maronite priest when my aunt searched high and low for a priest from her own (Roman rite) parish and diocese.  Literally nobody would come and he was dying.  He was requesting a priest whenever he was lucid.  A neighbor from a few blocks away came over with a few pieces of mail inadvertently sent to his home, (last names were similar and they had similar street addresses). She and her husband were from Lebanon and went to a small Maronite Church that got going in the mid-1980’s.  The priest was more than willing.  My uncle went to confession, received Communion, fell asleep and died that night in his sleep.